Prayer and EMS

[rockster10]

I'd just like to say this.....I'm not a good source for the OP of this topic as I'm just entering school, but it's my belief in prayer that makes me want to enter EMS. I've prayed for guidance and this is where I've been led. I've seen the power of prayer within my family and in my own life. It's a personal matter for every person, but more to the OP's topic, I have a hard time believing that no one here has seen anything change that was miraculous for patients due to prayer. The negative tone of the thread FOR prayer would probably keep the people who have experienced the positive aspects of prayer in the field from posting.

For those of us who DO believe in God and prayer I think God would say to the atheists in the foxholes from this quote:

"If 'they' truly believed in an interventionist god and the power of intercessory prayer, then 'they' wouldn't need foxholes at all, would they?..."

Get your own dirt.

 

[akflightmedic]

They say there's no Atheists in fox holes... and that came from first hand observation in WW II.

Without delving into my personal back story, I will say this again and I will say it loud....

"There are INDEED atheists in the foxhole"...been there, done that and amazingly enough, my beliefs did not change or invent a god on the spot to save my ***.

This is so egotistical for a group to think all will revert to their belief system simply because a time of need in their opinion has arisen. This is not how it works with atheists or people who are comfortable with their life.

As for your quote, who reported this first hand? What kind of documentation and study was performed while in the foxholes? What was the story on those who "converted"? Again, it is massive propaganda with a catchy phrase...

If anything, atheists are more appreciative, respectful and concerned with THIS life. This is it for us, so we have to make the best of it, we have to enjoy it, and we have to treat it well. We do all of these things because it is the right thing to do. Yes folks, morality is independent of religion and is quite successful without it. We do not need threats of damnation or promises of blissful eternity to do the right thing. We do it because it simply is...

 

[dg5887]

akflightmedic,

If atheists are more "appreciative" of "THIS life" then who are they appreciative to for "THIS life" and if this is the only life there is why do you say "THIS" life?

Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate?

All of creation points to that of a creator. If one were to be walking in the desert and come upon a mansion fully equiped with electricity would they not believe someone built that mansion and supplied the electricity? How much more complicated is the human body than a house? Could it be that we just by chance came about? Impossible.

 

[akflightmedic]

akflightmedic,

If atheists are more "appreciative" of "THIS life" then who are they appreciative to for "THIS life" and if this is the only life there is why do you say "THIS" life?

Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate?

All of creation points to that of a creator. If one were to be walking in the desert and come upon a mansion fully equiped with electricity would they not believe someone built that mansion and supplied the electricity? How much more complicated is the human body than a house? Could it be that we just by chance came about? Impossible.

I wondered how long before the twist the word game would begin...

This discussion was open for ALL views, whichever they are. It was for people to express their beliefs, views or non beliefs whether it agrees with yours or not.

Quite honestly, most atheists do NOT debate there is no god as we typically have ZERO need to bring up the subject. It simply does not occur in routine conversation UNTIL someone of a certain belief brings it up. At that point, it is fair discussion topic.

Review the threads and tell me how many start off with "There is no god!" You will find none...now review and see how many start off with "there is" or make an attempt to bring it up. I think you will see where the scales tip my friend.

Those of non-belief have every right to express themselves as politely or as defensively as those which do. However what you will find is those of non-belief typically do not go the militant route nor do they inflict harm or go to war over non-beliefs. I mean seriously, the logic of fighting over nothing??

The above example was extreme but think of all the lesser extremes. There is simply no need for us to thank someone for when things go right and chalk it up to a master plan of which we can't conceive when things go wrong. We have personal responsibility. We accept the actions of our actions for what they are and then deal with it.

As for my words which you tried so pathetically to twist, I am saying this life is it. THIS meaning the one we are experiencing...how else do I express it? I am not hinting that there is another...I am saying at this very moment...THIS life. And since THIS life is it, then we appreciate it, we enjoy it, we make it the best it is for ourselves and those around us as there are no second chances or do overs.

We appreciate all the natural beauty of it, really soak it in. Earth is a wonderful place to be most days but if you are so focused on what to do to get to the "after life" you just may miss it or wake up one day with it all gone.

I know it is hard for those of "the faith" to realize we of no belief can be just as loving and caring with no rewards being promised in the eternal hereafter. We have loving family units, we bond, we nurture...pretty darn amazing isn't it? We are normal people who do all the same things you do only we do not play what we determine to be fantasy games with our lives.

In closing, remember this...we were ALL born atheists.

 

[medic417]

I am very religious. I do not push my religious views on people and I do not participate in their religious activity. For many religious people they feel calm and less afraid when they are praying, so why interfere with them praying? Another point is if they are praying for intervention to whatever God or object they believe in you could say w/o joining in that perhaps my hands are the answer to your prayer and go on.

I have known atheist that insisted on having their mp3 player and when at first we could not locate it they started having more difficulty but once family found it and they were able to listen to the music they relaxed and treatment was easier to accomplish. Should I have denied them their music like some have suggested denying the patient prayer? The patient is calmer and whether you agree or not they played a part in their own recovery.

Another fact is the patient has the legal right in the USA to determine what if any treatment they want. If their prayer delays your care they still have the right to choose that delay and all you can do is document it.

As to the study that says outcomes for patients when praying turned out worse there have also been studies that have stated improved outcomes. Studies can be slanted anyway the author wants by excluding certain items and including others. There have been studies that say music helps and yet others that say it hinders recovery. Just because we find one that supports our opinion does not make it the final answer.

 

[akflightmedic]

I agree and at no point did I say I would not "allow" it.

They can do whatever they want as long as it does not involve me. It is quite presumptuous for one to assume because they are one way, then everyone is...especially when it comes to matters of religion.

If they wish to delay care to pray, then by all means go for it after I advise no time delay is warranted and the potential effects of such delay. If time is not an issue, then again, have at it and within a reasonable amount of time I will be asking if you still need my services.

I do long for the day when "miraculous" cancer cures are trumped by limb regrowth after someone experiences a traumatic amputation...

 

[CAOX3]

I'd just like to say this.....I'm not a good source for the OP of this topic as I'm just entering school, but it's my belief in prayer that makes me want to enter EMS. I've prayed for guidance and this is where I've been led. I've seen the power of prayer within my family and in my own life. It's a personal matter for every person, but more to the OP's topic, I have a hard time believing that no one here has seen anything change that was miraculous for patients due to prayer. The negative tone of the thread FOR prayer would probably keep the people who have experienced the positive aspects of prayer in the field from posting.

For those of us who DO believe in God and prayer I think God would say to the atheists in the foxholes from this quote:

"If 'they' truly believed in an interventionist god and the power of intercessory prayer, then 'they' wouldn't need foxholes at all, would they?..."

Get your own dirt.

Well your on the right track, you have taken the vow of poverty.

Listen, I have witnessed things that if I didn't see with my own two eyes I would have never believed, things you don't mention because no ones going to believe you and plenty of things that have no explanation.

I'm not sure who's running the show, but Id say he is looking out for some people.

If they want to pray, they pray, if they want to chant, they chant and if they want to sing, they sing. If they believe its beneficial to their medical outcome who the helll are we to say it isn't.

I can do my job without trampling all over the beliefs of the patient and their family. Im not joining in but I wont deter you.

 

[rescue99]

I agree and at no point did I say I would not "allow" it.

They can do whatever they want as long as it does not involve me. It is quite presumptuous for one to assume because they are one way, then everyone is...especially when it comes to matters of religion.

If they wish to delay care to pray, then by all means go for it after I advise no time delay is warranted and the potential effects of such delay. If time is not an issue, then again, have at it and within a reasonable amount of time I will be asking if you still need my services.

I do long for the day when "miraculous" cancer cures are trumped by limb regrowth after someone experiences a traumatic amputation...

We do not interfere with normal religious prayer even during serious calls. It is appropriate to suggest we work and family prays but, if they ask for a moment for prayer it is expected that we make every attempt to do so. What one person's belief may be or lack therof, is his/her business. I will not tell a nun she can't have a breif moment to pray for her sister let alone a man for his wife. Yes, I've been in the field long enough to have been asked to baptize a few. Religion is a protected right in which I am obligated to abide by as long as it is within the laws of our country. This country was founded on christian beliefs and those beliefs are protected by the consititution.

 

[reidnez]

We do not interfere with normal religious prayer even during serious calls. It is appropriate to suggest we work and family prays but, if they ask for a moment for prayer it is expected that we make every attempt to do so. What one person's belief may be or lack therof, is his/her business. I will not tell a nun she can't have a breif moment to pray for her sister let alone a man for his wife. Yes, I've been in the field long enough to have been asked to baptize a few. Religion is a protected right in which I am obligated to abide by as long as it is within the laws of our country. This country was founded on christian beliefs and those beliefs are protected by the consititution.

Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should actively participate.

Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government from religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814"

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

And, of course, the most important of all: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The first part of that statement is just as important as the second.

 

[Veneficus]

Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should actively participate.

Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government from religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814"

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

And, of course, the most important of all: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The first part of that statement is just as important as the second.

Bravo!!!

 

[rescue99]

Nobody in this thread has ever suggested that the patient or the family be denied the opportunity to pray. Of course I would allow someone to pray. The only question is whether the EMT should actively participate.

Where do people get this "Christian Nation" nonsense? The founders protected the practice of religion, yes, but they were also careful to protect government from religion. If you want to know how the founders really felt about religion, research some of the letters they wrote to each other and to their friends, rather than their public speech. The fact is, no matter what they professed publicly about religion, these men were privately fearful of religion when it came to governance and public life. I'll throw a few quotes at you for starters.

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814"

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." --- Thomas Jefferson to S. Kercheval, 1810

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

And, of course, the most important of all: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The first part of that statement is just as important as the second.

Those seeking freedom to worship are as important as those whom wish to have no religious beliefs at all. I find non-believers to be sometimes pushy, sometimes angry and unconvincing but, it is their right to express and mine to ignore. It's even an interesting topic at times when the participants are interesting in their views. Bottom line...it is not necessary to appreciate someone else's non-belief in order to respect his/her right to be so.

 

[Nelg]

Having grown up in the Bible Belt, I have found that most people of faith try to push there beliefs on others constantly. "You're Methodist? You're WRONG! Baptist is the way to go!"

At an early age, having read the bible I had already started finding contradictions and seeing a lot of what people hold on to as "real" sounded just as "real" as a man in a red coat, long, white beard and having a jolly big belly whipping around the world with a bag of goodies for all the "good" little boys and girls, sneaking down chimneys that range from small to large.

In a previous reply, I stated I was Agnostic, but that in itself is just a label. I like to say I'm just not religious. If I wanted to say I was anything, though, it would be Satanic (google it, people, it's not all what you think), and even then that's pushing it.

If anything, I like the principles of Buddhism, but I feel that, as a person and a future EMS personal, that I should live the best I can, period.

Do I have to be a Church goer for that? Not at all! Just don't say that in the bible belt, they still want a good lynching every now and then.

 

[firetender]

akflightmedic,
Could there be atheism without something to atheate?

This was worth slogging through the whole thread to find. Case closed!

But, you know, there are forces out there that we are yet to understand. Look in front of you. Everything man made you see was once someone's thought. Most everything started as something many believed couldn't be done. It didn't matter that 1,000,000 people swore it couldn't be done, one guy/gal made it happen; and the only difference? He/she believed it.

And why not thoughts that take on lives of their own? A prayer is a thought directed for a purpose. If you've ever lived with indigenous people, on the land they've occupied for centuries, you will see that slightly different "natural" forces are in effect; forces THEY believe in and still, they are alive enough so that even WE can witness them!

My point? All of us, Atheist or Otherwise live in a world consisting of forces of which we know and understand but a micron.

 

[firetender]

akflightmedic,
Could there be atheism without something to atheate?

This was worth slogging through the whole thread to find. Case closed!

But, you know, there are forces out there that we are yet to understand. Look in front of you. Everything wo/man made you see was once someone's thought. Most everything started as something many believed couldn't be done. It didn't matter that 1,000,000 people swore it couldn't be done, one guy/gal made it happen; and the only difference? He/she believed it.

And why not thoughts that take on lives of their own? A prayer is a thought directed for a purpose. If you've ever lived with indigenous people, on the land they've occupied for centuries, you will see that slightly different "natural" forces are in effect; forces THEY believe in and still, they are alive enough so that even WE can witness them!

My point? All of us, Atheist or Otherwise live in a world consisting of forces of which we know and understand but a micron. We wouldn't do anything if we didn't believe in something.

 

[sojourner]

Thank you

I continue to enjoy the comments and have learned quite a bit. I haven't seen much from the point-of-view I was hoping for, but am thankful all the same. My medical research is showing prayer and healing much more prevalent and relevant in the rest of the medical "industry" than in EMS so far. I am not sure how well I communicated in the beginning of the thread, but my purpose would be toward those predisposed to prayer to not forget nor ignore it in practice/calls. I certainly do not mean stop procedures to call a "prayer meeting" nor stop any scope responsibility, but to acknowledge God and ask for direction in care. We make decisions out there and we are also misdirected and miss conditions we might not be looking for. For those of us who recognize God calls us to look to Him for what we don't know, well please consider it more.

Prayer is not a fix-it nor is it is a tool we control. It's not magic that once we learn the right words to "conjure the spell", we become great prayer practitioners. Prayer is acknowledging God and giving Him the credit for good things and asking for His help in bad things. We're just humans, He's God. I'm a dad and my kids don't get everything just because they ask. If they don't ask for help though, it's pretty hard for me to help much, even though I could be very helpful at times. Someone's life is a pretty big thing not to ask help for.

Thanks again for all the comments. Keep them coming.

 

[Melclin]

Why do atheists always try to debate that there is no God? We never hear of people going around and trying to debate that there is no such thing as unicorns or fairies, because if we did they would be called crazy. Why is it not that way with atheists? It is because God is real. Could there be atheism without something to atheate?

All of creation points to that of a creator. If one were to be walking in the desert and come upon a mansion fully equiped with electricity would they not believe someone built that mansion and supplied the electricity? How much more complicated is the human body than a house? Could it be that we just by chance came about? Impossible.

Wow....just ...wow.

Your second point is deeply flawed but I haven't the energy the get into that debate. Google it if you're interested in knowing why that analogy is not at all accurate, I think often the specific example is about a tornado, a junk yard and the spontaneous assembly of a 747.

Your first point is just absurd. Firstly, the reason there are no fairy atheists is because there are no fairy theists (although the idea of god is not that far off). If there were people who seriously believed in fairies, there would be people who would be arguing against it. Secondly, "Could there be atheism without something to atheate?". Really? So if I was to say, argue that santa was not real, by your logic, that would mean there must be a santa? Surely u see how that's wrong.

Other than pointing out that obvious flaw in logic, I have no particular interest in having a atheists vs theists argument on the internet, been there done that. If I want to waste my time and end up with a head ache, I'll bash my head against a brick wall. Its cheaper than internet access.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Seems like my patients really start praying once I walk in the door.......

You take yours to heaven, Ill take mine to hell.

 

[TraprMike]

 

[Nelg]

I've got to admit, that has creepy, cute and awesome all rolled up into one.

That dog has him tricked by the leash!

 

[EMTinNEPA]

"How come God gets credit whenever something good happens? Where was he when her heart stopped?"