Police Forcing Transport

[Wheel]

Where I work now, we often have police threaten to take someone to jail if they don't go with us to the hospital. Usually intoxication is their only problem and they are ambulatory with no complaints. This keeps us busy with paperwork and puts unneeded stress on the local hospital. It also gives the "patient" an unnecessary hospital and ambulance bill.

My question is, does this happen in most places? If so, how do you handle it?

 

[akflightmedic]

If they are A/O x 4 and have no medical complaint....then we could cancel ourselves and leave the scene. PD can deal with it as it is a common and stupid practice that they seem to employ everywhere...

If you are smaller city/town and want to maintain harmonious relations with the PD, then you simply tell the drunk...I am going to load you in the ambulance and drive away. If you decide you no longer wish to go to the hospital one block from here, I have to pull over and let you out. Which block would you like sir?

 

[abckidsmom]

It's classic and everywhere. Cops have laziness too.

 

[hobozach]

Where I work now, we often have police threaten to take someone to jail if they don't go with us to the hospital. Usually intoxication is their only problem and they are ambulatory with no complaints. This keeps us busy with paperwork and puts unneeded stress on the local hospital. It also gives the "patient" an unnecessary hospital and ambulance bill.

My question is, does this happen in most places? If so, how do you handle it?

You don't have them sign a refusal?

 

[Wheel]

You don't have them sign a refusal?

When faced with jail vs. hospital, few choose jail. After the threat it's, "I think I should go get looked at I guess."

 

[Tigger]

Where I work now, we often have police threaten to take someone to jail if they don't go with us to the hospital. Usually intoxication is their only problem and they are ambulatory with no complaints. This keeps us busy with paperwork and puts unneeded stress on the local hospital. It also gives the "patient" an unnecessary hospital and ambulance bill.

My question is, does this happen in most places? If so, how do you handle it?

The county I live in recently started a program where these sorts of patients are transported to detox in a wheelchair van staffed by an EMT. The larger hospital in town has a detox unit so they all go there, not sure how the billing works though. I think the transport is free but the stay might not be. Police or Fire/EMS can call for detox transport if an unknown medical call turns into just a public inebriate.

Denver has a similar program through an addiction center called Denver CARES and Denver General hospital. DG runs the ambulance as well as the Emergency Service Patrol, which is two EMTs driving around in something that looks like the animal control truck. They drive set routes looking for drunks and respond to calls from PD and EMS.

 

[Handsome Robb]

The county I live in recently started a program where these sorts of patients are transported to detox in a wheelchair van staffed by an EMT. The larger hospital in town has a detox unit so they all go there, not sure how the billing works though. I think the transport is free but the stay might not be. Police or Fire/EMS can call for detox transport if an unknown medical call turns into just a public inebriate.

Denver has a similar program through an addiction center called Denver CARES and Denver General hospital. DG runs the ambulance as well as the Emergency Service Patrol, which is two EMTs driving around in something that looks like the animal control truck. They drive set routes looking for drunks and respond to calls from PD and EMS.

We can transport to the detox center in our ambulances now. It's part of our new "Ambulance Transport Alternatives" programs. Allows us to triage to a state psych hospital, the detox center and certain urgent cares.

To the OP, similar things happen here with some cops but not all. I've used the "ride with me on a comfy gurney or with them with some new bling and behind a cage on a hard plastic seat. They usually pick me.

I feel your pain though wheel. It's really frustrating when cops do it, I've told cops before that I'm going to put them in triage and they're going to be able to walk right out the front door and sometimes that helps the situation.

 

[Wheel]

We can transport to the detox center in our ambulances now. It's part of our new "Ambulance Transport Alternatives" programs. Allows us to triage to a state psych hospital, the detox center and certain urgent cares.

To the OP, similar things happen here with some cops but not all. I've used the "ride with me on a comfy gurney or with them with some new bling and behind a cage on a hard plastic seat. They usually pick me.

I feel your pain though wheel. It's really frustrating when cops do it, I've told cops before that I'm going to put them in triage and they're going to be able to walk right out the front door and sometimes that helps the situation.

This happened recently. I don't even mind taking them to the hospital if they want to go.

This time patient ran off the road, was pregnant and intoxicated, but didn't hit anything. She was alert on our arrival and wanted to go to the hospital. We load her up, but she has no complaint and after seeing that her vitals were ok, wanted to stay. We go to let her out and the cop isn't having it. He says she can be released to her mother if she goes to the hospital, but otherwise she's going to jail.

I mean, this woman is four months pregnant, obviously drunk, admits to drinking half a pint of vodka, was driving drunk with her three other children, and the deputy is trying to turf her to us when she has no complaint.

Honestly I have a great relationship with local LE, and I don't mind taking people who want to go, but this rubbed me the wrong way and isn't the first time it's happened. Usually it's with people for SI, but that's partly because the jail is the wrong place for that and is not a good environment for most of them. I imagine the deputy was sick of her shenanigans, but he's the one who wanted to be a cop and deal with that, paperwork and all.

 

[Tigger]

We can transport to the detox center in our ambulances now. It's part of our new "Ambulance Transport Alternatives" programs. Allows us to triage to a state psych hospital, the detox center and certain urgent cares.

To the OP, similar things happen here with some cops but not all. I've used the "ride with me on a comfy gurney or with them with some new bling and behind a cage on a hard plastic seat. They usually pick me.

I feel your pain though wheel. It's really frustrating when cops do it, I've told cops before that I'm going to put them in triage and they're going to be able to walk right out the front door and sometimes that helps the situation.

Our medical director at my rural place is also AMR's in Colorado Springs. He has had us and AMR and his other agency transporting straight to detox (and urgent care for us in the mountains) for a bit now, and he was the one who came up with "alternative transport vehicle." I like how kind he is by trying to keep the ambulance call volume down haha. The program was in JEMS a few months ago and the study written by him and AMR's QA head is here.

 

[Clipper1]

This happened recently. I don't even mind taking them to the hospital if they want to go.

This time patient ran off the road, was pregnant and intoxicated, but didn't hit anything. She was alert on our arrival and wanted to go to the hospital. We load her up, but she has no complaint and after seeing that her vitals were ok, wanted to stay. We go to let her out and the cop isn't having it. He says she can be released to her mother if she goes to the hospital, but otherwise she's going to jail.

I mean, this woman is four months pregnant, obviously drunk, admits to drinking half a pint of vodka, was driving drunk with her three other children, and the deputy is trying to turf her to us when she has no complaint.

Honestly I have a great relationship with local LE, and I don't mind taking people who want to go, but this rubbed me the wrong way and isn't the first time it's happened. Usually it's with people for SI, but that's partly because the jail is the wrong place for that and is not a good environment for most of them. I imagine the deputy was sick of her shenanigans, but he's the one who wanted to be a cop and deal with that, paperwork and all.

The cop was correct here. This woman did not need jail. There was more than patient here. She and her unborn child needed to be examined in a hospital. I doubt if you can assure anyone that the fetus is okay even if the mother had no complaints. No Police Officer wants to be hit with the liability of not getting a pregnant woman cleared medically. Alcohol can affect an unborn child in a very bad way especially if the woman is a chronic abuser.

The hospital's social services would initiate a CPS action which may or may not involve the police. It is by far less traumatic on the kids for this to take place in a hospital rather than have the them sit in a jail. The mother, if released, will also be monitored at delivery for signs of alcohol which would then determine what happens to her child.

 

[Wheel]

The cop was correct here. This woman did not need jail. There was more than patient here. She and her unborn child needed to be examined in a hospital. I doubt if you can assure anyone that the fetus is okay even if the mother had no complaints. No Police Officer wants to be hit with the liability of not getting a pregnant woman cleared medically. Alcohol can affect an unborn child in a very bad way especially if the woman is a chronic abuser.

The hospital's social services would initiate a CPS action which may or may not involve the police. It is by far less traumatic on the kids for this to take place in a hospital rather than have the them sit in a jail. The mother, if released, will also be monitored at delivery for signs of alcohol which would then determine what happens to her child.

I absolutely agree, and this would have been the correct action except the police did not go with her or follow her to the hospital. She signed AMA as soon as she got there and left. She did not get worked up and she did not go to jail. The children's grandmother took them from the scene. I never claimed that the fetus was ok, and this person was offered to go home with her mother with no legal repercussions if she went to the hospital.

This call just left a bad taste in my mouth. I was happy to take her to the hospital, as that is my job, and i do have some experience with fetal alcohol syndrome. I was not happy with the officers who attempted to send her to the hospital with no follow up from them. My question was really more about how other people handled this type of situation, and if it was a problem in their area rather than about this specific experience.

 

[Clipper1]

I absolutely agree, and this would have been the correct action except the police did not go with her or follow her to the hospital. She signed AMA as soon as she got there and left. She did not get worked up and she did not go to jail. The children's grandmother took them from the scene. I never claimed that the fetus was ok, and this person was offered to go home with her mother with no legal repercussions if she went to the hospital.

This call just left a bad taste in my mouth. I was happy to take her to the hospital, as that is my job, and i do have some experience with fetal alcohol syndrome. I was not happy with the officers who attempted to send her to the hospital with no follow up from them. My question was really more about how other people handled this type of situation, and if it was a problem in their area rather than about this specific experience.

In this situation, it is a form of child abuse. The health care professionals at the hospital will probably follow through with their obligation to report this. Social Services will definitely be involved. We have a special group of professionals which deal with situations like this since it is unfortunately not unique. If the baby is born at this hospital, there will also be a record of her AMA and drunkenness. The officer also probably filed a report of his alternative to her and that you took her to the hospital. This is not an uncommon practice for the Police when it involves children and pregnant women. The hospital can be a safe haven since they usually have the resources and professionals to deal with these situations and reduce the stress on the children. This woman is not going to get a free ride and will have to answer for the well being of her kids.

 

[Wheel]

In this situation, it is a form of child abuse. The health care professionals at the hospital will probably follow through with their obligation to report this. Social Services will definitely be involved. We have a special group of professionals which deal with situations like this since it is unfortunately not unique. If the baby is born at this hospital, there will also be a record of her AMA and drunkenness. The officer also probably filed a report of his alternative to her and that you took her to the hospital. This is not an uncommon practice for the Police when it involves children and pregnant women. The hospital can be a safe haven since they usually have the resources and professionals to deal with these situations and reduce the stress on the children. This woman is not going to get a free ride and will have to answer for the well being of her kids.

Thanks for explaining your position further. I agree on the whole. This situation bothered me a bit, not necessarily because of what happened but more with the attitudes displayed. I appreciate your input.

 

[Bullets]

Happens here, if the patient is really competent enough we just let him RMA around the block. Every so often the cops will really push the issue and force a patient who has no business going to the hospital and only does so because they threaten jail.

One accurate PCR following arrests usually sets the Fuzz straight. A line like "Patient was struck repeatedly about the head and neck by PD" sends a good message

 

[Clipper1]

Thanks for explaining your position further. I agree on the whole. This situation bothered me a bit, not necessarily because of what happened but more with the attitudes displayed. I appreciate your input.

While the cop is giving the woman a break by not having an arrest record, child endangerment and abuse are no jokes either. If the hospital doesn't follow through, the kids are screwed. I hope you did write a good PCR and talk to the nurses and doctor about what you witnessed. A note by you left for the SW would also be very helpful.

The police in some of the other situations mentioned might be trying to give someone a break. An ER bill is nothing compared to having an arrest record, hiring an attorney and losing one's job or even career. Throwing everyone in jail is not always the answer. A college student being stupid drunk does not need their life thrown out the window for a bad night of partying. If they have to make a call to their parents asking for money to pay the ER bill it might have a sobering effect.

 

[Medic Tim]

Happens here, if the patient is really competent enough we just let him RMA around the block. Every so often the cops will really push the issue and force a patient who has no business going to the hospital and only does so because they threaten jail.

One accurate PCR following arrests usually sets the Fuzz straight. A line like "Patient was struck repeatedly about the head and neck by PD" sends a good message

any time that police request a transport from us we have the option of having an officer ride with us.

If they are under arrest or detained the officer must go.

 

[Bullets]

any time that police request a transport from us we have the option of having an officer ride with us.

If they are under arrest or detained the officer must go.

We have adopted the same policy, has cut down on the number of frivolous transports. That and they used to have us come to MVC just to RMA everyone. We stopped that real soon once we figured out what they were doing

 

[mycrofft]

One of my proudest moments as an EMT was transporting a woman (and her two kids) out from under the police's nose. "That arm looks broken".

 

[Clipper1]

One of my proudest moments as an EMT was transporting a woman (and her two kids) out from under the police's nose. "That arm looks broken".

Were the police detaining her to find out if she broke the arm? If it was a true act of violence which results in a broken bone then it is preferable to allow the police to take action and get the kids away from her. The woman with the alcohol intoxication could still possibly be salvaged but not one who breaks her child's arm intentionally.

 

[joshrunkle35]

If they are A/O x 4 and have no medical complaint....then we could cancel ourselves and leave the scene. PD can deal with it as it is a common and stupid practice that they seem to employ everywhere...

If you are smaller city/town and want to maintain harmonious relations with the PD, then you simply tell the drunk...I am going to load you in the ambulance and drive away. If you decide you no longer wish to go to the hospital one block from here, I have to pull over and let you out. Which block would you like sir?

How can a person with an altered mental status refuse treatment, of their own volition?

I mean, regardless to AAO status, they are being arrested for suspected intoxication...they can be alert to person place and time, but still have an altered mental status. How can they then refuse treatment? They can't give expressed consent.