paramedic to rn bridge_excelsior program

[Shishkabob]

However, there are also exceptions to TN and EMS as well.

And there are exceptions in nursing. And, *gasp* RTs! What's your point? Get off your high horse.

 

[Journey]

And there are exceptions in nursing. And, *gasp* RTs! What's your point? Get off your high horse.

I have no idea what point you are attempting to make with the high horse comment unless you are again trying to make this a personal attack. The exception right now in nursing, which this thread is about, is the Excelsior program and has already been discussed. That program would even allow a very new Paramedic such as yourself to enroll. Do you have something to add to that? As you stated to another forum member, read the first few pages.

The conversation with MedicRob and I pertained to TN and the Memphis FD starting their own Paramedic program. RTs (Radiology Technologists or Respiratory Therapists) increased their education requirements for what had been certs to prevent RNs from challenging their tests or requiring them to meet the same standards as anyone else wanting to be in the profession or to perform a certain skill which can still be an issue in Radiology.

 

[usalsfyre]

Close the loopholes by advancing education across the U.S. This is what other professions such as Respiratory Therapy and Radiology did to keep RNs from challenging their certs.

We've been down this road before. One thing you and I agree on is that as long as FDs are heavily involved in transporting EMS they have a vested interest in keeping it down to a tech-level certification program (no different than rope rescue or hazmat, just longer).

One of the reasons EMS is so much further along in most of the rest of the third world is they all have a national health service and EMS is not revenue driven. I'm at a loss for how to change this though.

 

[Veneficus]

One of the reasons EMS is so much further along in most of the rest of the third world is they all have a national health service and EMS is not revenue driven. I'm at a loss for how to change this though.

Third world?

Have you looked at the US lately?

It has no value on education.

A near 10% unemployment rate (similar to some of the poorest countries on earth)

It has no meaningful export to speak of.

A crushing debt.

An ineffective over extended military.

Spends billions on healthcare that cannot get better outcomes than people spending significantly less.

It is not exactly the epitomy of modern society.

But really, it is not government supported healthcare that is going to be a game changer. A majority of Healthcare dollars come from medicare/medicade, which means most healthcare spending is already done by the Govt.

There are 2 changes that will be required in order to fix EMS issues in the US. The first is providers will have to take it upon themselves to get educated prior to any benefit from it. After a majority of providers are they can start making demands. In order to do that, they will have to step out of the role of a glorified taxi with BLS, ACLS, and PALS protocols.

The second step is beaten ground, just like all other licensed providers they will have to have a role unique to them that adds value so they can petition for reimbursement.

If a fire department were to equally implement such tasks, it too could benefit from the new revenue stream and maintain its already substantial public support.

Maybe when some of the fire service dinosaurs who still linger on and stagnate the whole fire profession finally die off, I think there will be a steady shift towards degrees.

I once asked my high school guidence councilor when she said I was too smart to be a firefighter: "When your life is on the line, from fire, a medical emergency, or a car accident; Who do you want coming to the rescue? The gy with a few hours of vocational education or the smartest person you can find?"

I think with the dwindling fire service positions, what is being asked of the firefighters, and the growing competition for those spots, that the average education and therefore value of education will increase.

 

[whatw14578]

its at 12% in north florida. but the Com college has had a record enrol. this past 2 years. so many people are going back to school. good for them

 

[rook901]

Wow, this thread is on the off-topic fast track.

To the OP: Excelsior is a very valid option, but you definitely need to check with your state's BON before enrolling to ensure that it is accepted. In some states, as has been mentioned, you cannot be licensed with your Excelsior degree in hand. For some other states, you will have to work a certain number of hours as an RN in another state before being licensed (can't remember which states require this).

(Edit: This is a good list to refer to for each state's requirements.)

If going through a traditional program is doable for you, I'd say go the traditional route simply because it is more structured and does not afford you the luxury of spending up to five years to complete. However, for me, a traditional program wasn't an option if I wanted to continue working at my full-time job. So, I did Excelsior and didn't look back.

As for the "try getting a job in critical care" comment and the comment about employers not hiring you based on your online education - that's complete nonsense. Employers do not care which school you went to, so long as it's accredited by AANC or CCNE and your degree meets their minimum requirements (diploma vs ADN vs BSN). As for critical care jobs, there are many EC grads employed in critical care, and I can be counted among them. I frequent a nursing discussion site with a very active distance education forum, and I'm in touch with several EC grads that have gotten jobs in critical care. If you have prior experience in EMS, especially as a paramedic, you've got a huge leg up on ANY new grad RN with no previous experience that's shooting for a critical care position.

Clinicals only take you so far. I completed half of an LPN-to-RN program before dropping out and going Excelsior (had to drop out because the program was very disorganized - they would change the clinical schedule on a weekly basis, which didn't work out very well with my employer). Completed rotations in med/surg, OB, geriatrics, peds and psych before I left. Clinicals were a joke. Most of the time was spent writing care plans and reading through charts. We spent about two hours out of a six-hour clinical day doing patient care, and we didn't do anything more advanced than setting the flow rate on an IV pump or giving an IM injection. This was in a program where we were already expected to have a baseline of nursing knowledge (LPN), so I can only imagine what was going on in the regular RN program. I realize that not all programs are so underdeveloped in clinical experience, but it's one example where clinical experience in a traditional program does not mean that the program is superior to Excelsior.

In Excelsior's program, you're required to complete a two and a half day clinical exam (CPNE) where there is no teaching or coaching. You either know what you're doing or you don't. If you don't, you fail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. This is great for washing out those who don't know what they're doing, but it's also a really bad deal, as you're out $2000 + travel expenses.

On the pro side for traditional program clinicals, going to a traditional program means that you are doing your clinicals in local hospitals and getting exposure to nurse managers who may offer you a job before you graduate. That's definitely a big benefit over Excelsior.

In the end, RN school only teaches you enough to keep you from killing someone. It doesn't matter if you're coming out of a diploma program, an ADN, a BSN, or an accelerated MSN for non-nursing BS students, you're still all going to go through the same hospital and unit orientation. Again, as long as you've got your unencumbered RN license, the hospital really doesn't care.

 

[rook901]

Sidenote: I don't even want to get into a BSN vs ADN debate, and I believe that my previous post might open up that pathway. BSN's do have an advantage over ADN's in the job market, and Excelsior only offers the ADN to non-RN's. So, there is that to consider when choosing a nursing program.

I believe that BSN should be the entry level for RN's and that you should complete a BSN rather than an ADN if you're able to. Just making the point that Excelsior is a very valid option right now for those that are otherwise unable to go to a traditional program.

 

[medicRob]

As for the "try getting a job in critical care" comment and the comment about employers not hiring you based on your online education - that's complete nonsense. Employers do not care which school you went to, so long as it's accredited by AANC or CCNE and your degree meets their minimum requirements (diploma vs ADN vs BSN)

Not nonsense at all. In fact, many critical care units in my area will not hire excelsior graduates if they can help it.

In the end, RN school only teaches you enough to keep you from killing someone. It doesn't matter if you're coming out of a diploma program, an ADN, a BSN, or an accelerated MSN for non-nursing BS students, you're still all going to go through the same hospital and unit orientation. Again, as long as you've got your unencumbered RN license, the hospital really doesn't care.

I am going to have to disagree with this as well. A good RN program prepares you to do more than "not killing people". I was able in my nursing program to take classes on year 4 such as "Cardio-respiratory concepts of critical care nursing" to name a few that really gave me a leg up in critical care and prepared me for issues that I would face in my career. I was part of a very involved nursing program and while I will not disagree with you that I was scared on my first shift as an RN, there was never a point where I didn't feel confident in carrying out the tasks required of me.

If you feel that your nursing program only prepared you to "not kill people", then perhaps that wasn't the best nursing program.. Our clinicals were quite involved and consisted of more than writing care plans and charting.. We performed procedures, administered meds, did nursing rounds, and worked as an integral part of the nursing team. We were given the opportunity time and time again to perform critical skills, were given the ability to critically think, and were exposed to a variety of pathologies and physiological alterations over those 2 years of clinicals. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but if I were in an ICU, I simply would not trust an excelsior RN to be my nurse. I would barely feel comfortable with one in med/surg, let alone critical care.

 

[Journey]

As for the "try getting a job in critical care" comment and the comment about employers not hiring you based on your online education - that's complete nonsense. Employers do not care which school you went to, so long as it's accredited by AANC or CCNE and your degree meets their minimum requirements (diploma vs ADN vs BSN). As for critical care jobs, there are many EC grads employed in critical care.

That will depend entirely upon the hospital and how progressive it is. There are many ICUs which are little more than a glorified tele or med-surg holding unit. The system I work for has 10 hospitals and we haven't hires an Excelsior grad in over 10 years with the exception of the LPNs who made the transition while employed with us. We don't have to hire EC grads. There are enough BSN grads applying who did their clinicals at our hospitals to choose from. You also have to consider there are states that just don't want EC grads period.

If you have prior experience as a paramedic, you've got a huge leg up on ANY new grad RN shooting for a critical care position.

Probably not. The 2 week CCT course does not even come close to making a Paramedic qualified for the Intensive Care Units. A new grad RN will at least have A&P, Pharmacology and the basics of nursing to work with as they go into a new grad program to teach them the fundamentals of Critical Care. Right now, the internships are few and far inbetween with the BSN grad still being the best candidate at the Magnet hospitals.

But, at least with the Excelsior program you are not taking a college seat from someone who really wants to be a nurse and will take the program seriously to be a good professional. I guess you can consider that an advantage.

Edited after seeing your later post.

 

[rook901]

If you feel that your nursing program only prepared you to "not kill people", then perhaps that wasn't the best nursing program.. Our clinicals were quite involved and consisted of more than writing care plans and charting.. We performed procedures, administered meds, did nursing rounds, and worked as an integral part of the nursing team. We were given the opportunity time and time again to perform critical skills, were given the ability to critically think, and were exposed to a variety of pathologies and physiological alterations over those 2 years of clinicals. I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings, but if I were in an ICU, I simply would not trust an excelsior RN to be my nurse. I would barely feel comfortable with one in med/surg, let alone critical care.

It really doesn't hurt my feelings. It's simply ignorance. I'm not going to get into an argument about it. The school does not make the nurse. The individual makes the nurse. I've worked with some LPN's that I've felt were more competent than some BSN-educated RN's.

My statement about preparing RN's to not kill people was an attempt at humor that apparently fell short. But there is some truth behind the joke. Much more is learned in the first year on the job than is learned in school, regardless of the length or depth of education.

I'm very impressed by your individual clinical experiences, but not all schools are created equal. My LPN-to-RN program's clinical requirements fell far short of my expectations. I also have a friend who is in her last 6 months of an accelerated non-nursing-BS to MSN at UT Memphis, and her experiences echo mine. Maybe it's a Memphis thang.

I'm sure that there are some traditional programs that are superior to Excelsior, but that does not mean that all traditional programs are superior.

 

[medicRob]

It really doesn't hurt my feelings. It's simply ignorance. I'm not going to get into an argument about it. The school does not make the nurse. The individual makes the nurse. I've worked with some LPN's that I've felt were more competent than some BSN-educated RN's.

My statement about preparing RN's to not kill people was an attempt at humor that apparently fell short. But there is some truth behind the joke. Much more is learned in the first year on the job than is learned in school, regardless of the length or depth of education.

I'm very impressed by your individual clinical experiences, but not all schools are created equal. My LPN-to-RN program's clinical requirements fell far short of my expectations. I also have a friend who is in her last 6 months of an accelerated non-nursing-BS to MSN at UT Memphis, and her experiences echo mine. Maybe it's a Memphis thang.

I'm sure that there are some traditional programs that are superior to Excelsior, but that does not mean that all traditional programs are superior.

UT is a fantastic school, and they turn out some very good nurses. Also, the school does make the nurse. Let us not forget, if we all went into nursing school, knowing the material, what is the point of nursing school? The school most definitely makes the nurse.

To sum it up, if you want to be a competent RN, don't take shortcuts, go to RN school, be it AAS/ASN/ADN or BSN on campus with real CFE's, labs, and facilities. There is no ignorance about it. I work at a MAGNET hospital that is nationally recognized for its trauma and critical care nursing and I am willing to bet money that 9 out of 10 excelsior graduates could not get a job at this facility, critical care or otherwise. I wouldn't trust an excelsior graduate to collect a CBC in the right tube, let alone working as First, Second, or even Scribe nurse in a code.

That's all I'm gonna say on that. Regardless of my opinion, I do wish you good luck in any and all of your endeavors in both career and education.

 

[Journey]

But there is some truth behind the joke. Much more is learned in the first year on the job than is learned in school, regardless of the length or depth of education.

Nursing school gives you a foundation of fundamentals and basic skills. It seems you might still be expecting it to be an end all course like an EMT class. That is not the case since nursing is such a vast profession. However, it is true some schools do prepare you better than others. But, then even with clinicals that may not be outstanding, as least there are clinicals. Often a Paramedic who enters the hospital after finishing the Excelsior will have no idea what to expect and many will hold the title of RN but will never work as one. The knowledge learned may not be wasted but they did not get the benefit of caring for patients in many different levels of care.

The Excelsior also takes a lot of discipline. The program is not for procrastinators or those who cannot learn on their own. You may find more who didn't complete the program than those that did.

 

[rook901]

That will depend entirely upon the hospital and how progressive it is. There are many ICUs which are little more than a glorified tele or med-surg holding unit. The system I work for has 10 hospitals and we haven't hires an Excelsior grad in over 10 years with the exception of the LPNs who made the transition while employed with us. We don't have to hire EC grads. There are enough BSN grads applying who did their clinicals at our hospitals to choose from. You also have to consider there are states that just don't want EC grads period.

I did explicitly mention in my previous post that there are some states that do not license Excelsior grads, and even provided a link to a comprehensive list with individual state requirements. I also explicitly mentioned the benefit of exposure to local nurse managers if going through a traditional program.

As for not hiring Excelsior grads because you have plenty of BSN grads, I have to question whether it's that your hospital system isn't hiring Excelsior grads in particular or that it isn't hiring ADN grads in general. I'm willing to bet that there is not a hospital-wide prejudice against Excelsior specifically.

I already mentioned in my previous post that BSN is preferable and that I believe that BSN should be the entry level to nursing. I personally chose Excelsior because it was a way for me to get my RN without giving up my full-time job. YMMV.

Probably not. The 2 week CCT course does not even come close to making a Paramedic qualified for the Intensive Care Units. A new grad RN will at least have A&P, Pharmacology and the basics of nursing to work with as they go into a new grad program to teach them the fundamentals of Critical Care. Right now, the internships are few and far inbetween with the BSN grad still being the best candidate at the Magnet hospitals.

But, at least with the Excelsior program you are not taking a college seat from someone who really wants to be a nurse and will take the program seriously to be a good professional. I guess you can consider that an advantage.

Edited after seeing your later post.

An Excelsior new grad RN will also have A&P I&II, Pharmacology (integrated into each course), and the basics of nursing. My point was that a new grad ADN RN with EMS experience will have a leg up over a new grad ADN RN with no previous experience, regardless of the school.

As for Excelsior grads not taking a nursing program seriously and not being "a good professional", I'll dismiss that as uninformed garbage. Excelsior is not an easy way out. It's just as difficult as a butt-in-seat program. All exams are proctored at Pearson Vue testing centers -- the same center that administers NCLEX. So, you won't find the cheating and sliding through that you find in B&M programs. You either know the material or you don't.

I don't really have the energy or the desire to sit here and defend Excelsior. I don't really care one way or the other about anyone's opinions on the program. It got me the job that I wanted, and it's getting me into my BSN completion program, and that's all I care about. HR didn't bat an eye at my education. My NM didn't bat an eye at my education. I have the same signature on my paycheck and the same pay rate on my paycheck as the other ADN's on my unit. If you want to continue to spout off about a program that you know very little about, then carry on.

 

[rook901]

The school most definitely makes the nurse.

No. The individual's desire to learn and comprehend the information, and to continue learning makes the nurse. Plenty of RN's scrape their way through a BSN program and come out barely able to pass the NCLEX, let alone function on the floor. It all depends on the individual. As I said, I've worked alongside some LPN's that were far more competent than some BSN's. That doesn't mean that I trust LPN's more than BSN's. It's on an individual basis. If you write off an entire group of people based on what school they attended, then you're just being an elitist. The kind of person that has that mindset is the same kind of person that feels that they couldn't learn a thing from a CNA or an ED tech just because of their title.

To sum it up, if you want to be a competent RN, don't take shortcuts, go to RN school, be it AAS/ASN/ADN or BSN on campus with real CFE's, labs, and facilities. There is no ignorance about it. I work at a MAGNET hospital that is nationally recognized for its trauma and critical care nursing and I am willing to bet money that 9 out of 10 excelsior graduates could not get a job at this facility, critical care or otherwise. I wouldn't trust an excelsior graduate to collect a CBC in the right tube, let alone working as First, Second, or even Scribe nurse in a code.

See above. There is plenty of ignorance in elitism.

As for Excelsior grads not being able to get a job at your facility, could it be because Magnet facilities tend to hire BSN's over ADN's, due to the need to have a certain percentage of BSN nurses? It has nothing to do with Excelsior beyond the fact that Excelsior's primary RN program is an ADN. I think you're heavily skewing the facts here to favor your argument. I've already conceded that BSN is preferable. But, an ADN is an ADN is an ADN.

I've wasted more time than I intended to, but I did want to address your reply. Carry on, folks.

 

[Journey]

I did explicitly mention in my previous post that there are some states that do not license Excelsior grads, and even provided a link to a comprehensive list with individual state requirements. I also explicitly mentioned the benefit of exposure to local nurse managers if going through a traditional program.

As for not hiring Excelsior grads because you have plenty of BSN grads, I have to question whether it's that your hospital system isn't hiring Excelsior grads in particular or that it isn't hiring ADN grads in general. I'm willing to bet that there is not a hospital-wide prejudice against Excelsior.
I already mentioned in my previous post that BSN is preferable and that I believe that BSN should be the entry level to nursing. I personally chose Excelsior because it was a way for me to get my RN without giving up my full-time job. YMMV.

Actually it is a statewide prejudice against Excelsior.

The hospital is a large teaching facility and has magnet status. Most of the BSN programs do their clinicals wiith us so we have plenty of well qualified candidates. We will hire ADNs (from the local community college) for the med-surg floors but not for the ICUs or specialty teams such as Flight. We reward education and there is a difference in pay even if it is not that much. Those who hold the BSN can get their MSN paid for by the hospital with a contract for service. This gives the nurses more opportunity for advancement throughout the system. Why would we want Excelsior grads for entry level positions when we have so many other candidates? If we want ADNs there are plenty of grads from the local colleges.

An Excelsior new grad RN will also have A&P I&II, Pharmacology (integrated into each course), and the basics of nursing. My point was that a new grad RN with EMS experience will have a leg up over a new grad RN with no previous experience, regardless of the school.

We take everything into consideration when hiring ICU RNs with a BSN. Being a Paramedic and emphasizing a few skils which may also come with some street medicine learned bad habits may not be to your advantage. That usually comes out in the interview.

As for Excelsior grads not taking a nursing program seriously and not being "a good professional", I'll dismiss that as uninformed garbage. Excelsior is not an easy way out. It's just as difficult as a butt-in-seat program. All exams are proctored at Pearson Vue testing centers -- the same center that administers NCLEX. So, you won't find the cheating and sliding through that you find in B&M programs. You either know the material or you don't.

Some ask "how can I become a nurse without going to nursing school?

Or, as you stated, you didn't want to do the clinicals because of your opinion of the paperwork. Yes, the information in the chart is very important and nurses must find time to read through them. The more charts you read the faster you can scan and comprehend the data.

Clinicals were a joke. Most of the time was spent writing care plans and reading through charts.

Taking shortcuts is not always the best especially when you have no idea what a profession might be like or you have some preconceived picture based on some stuff you hear at an EMS job or on some forum.

I'm glad you have a job and I hope you can make it a career. But, you need to accept that others with a solid education who are not EC grads may get the job that you want someday. Don't bash the education or those who prefer not to make excuses or take shortcuts to be a professional.

 

[rook901]

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Ignoring misinformed posters is not my strong suit. But, on that note, I'm outta here.

 

[Journey]

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. Ignoring misinformed posters is not my strong suit. But, on that note, I'm outta here.

It is not being misinformed. When it comes Excelsior College or choosing any college for a career goal, it should be about being informed. You have just been told about different situations in different areas where the EC grad will not have an easy time getting the job of their dreams or even an RN license for various reasons. This should tell the prospective student of EC they need to do their homework to see what the requirements for licensure are in their state and what the hospitals in the area are looking for on a nursing application.

 

[Journey]

I know multiple RRTs who have gone this same route. Do you recommend against it for them? Or is it an inborn bias against paramedics.

Did see this comment but I think I made my point pretty clear in another post. The EC should be only for LVNs with hospital experience. However, RRTs may not have much problem with a traditional nursing program since they know what to expect in a hospital and aren't afraid to do the clinicals in one as well as knowing the reasoning behind the paperwork. Since RRTs have degrees with the same prerequisites as nursing, if they decided to enter the nursing program, it wouldn't be that much prep work. Also, the number of RRTs who have Bachelors degrees is growing which means they can qualify for the accelerated 2nd Bachelors or an entry level MSN program. There is no need for them to go backwards to an ADN program. Someone who already has an Associates should also be considering the Bachelors.

Don't take it so personally. I know just from reading the threads on this forum that some in EMS like the shortcuts to their education to be a Paramedic. Why do you feel so picked on when you know what the education is like in EMS? If you promoted more education for EMS, this might not have to always be a discussion in every thread. You also wouldn't feel the need to compare yourself to all the other professions and nursing students who have obtained their education the traditional way at a college with clinicals.

The EC program is one that nursing should have slammed the door on long ago. If it had mandatory clinicals of no less than 1000 hours with qualified instructors in a hospital situation, then maybe it might be salvageable.

 

[SerumK]

Most NMs I know say they give Resume's with Excelsior on them the same chuckle they give to University of Phoenix and ITT Tech... before filing said resume in the circular filing bin.

There's way too many new graduate nurses... a massive glue. The shortage is a myth. About 1/3 of the graduates in my area are still unemployed after 7 months. What do you think your hiring prospects will be if you are some online for-profit graduate whose school isn't even accepted in many states when there is already an excess of grads from reputable accredited brick and mortars?

 

[rook901]

Getting bored today, so I'm back for more punishment.

Most NMs I know say they give Resume's with Excelsior on them the same chuckle they give to University of Phoenix and ITT Tech... before filing said resume in the circular filing bin.

Considering that you are a BSN student who is not yet a practicing nurse and has no input whatsoever in the hiring process at any facility, I question how many conversations you've actually had with nurse managers about Excelsior College. Sorry, but I'm fairly certain that you just made that story up.

I'll just leave this here: "Allnurses.com - Excelsior Grads - Where are they now?". You may all feel free to ignore whatever date ranges and individual posts you'd like.

Those unfamiliar with the politics of nursing and nursing education may be impressed by the chest-puffing in this thread. As an EMS forum, this isn't the ideal place to discuss nursing education. If comments similar to the ones posted in this thread were posted on a nursing-oriented website, one would not be able to keep up with the brutal replies.

Excelsior definitely has its caveats. It is far from a perfect program. Many state boards of nursing have various issues with EC, and I did offer a link to state requirements in my first post. Most state boards of nursing do not have an issue with Excelsior. It is one of many valid paths to a nursing career. It goes through the same accreditation process as any other NLNAC-accredited program. Its NCLEX pass rate is higher than the national average. I wish that I could find the link to the independent study that the Georgia Nurses' Association presented to the GA BON to defend Excelsior, as the study showed that EC grads were rated by their workplace preceptors as equal to or higher than traditional new grad RN's.

I'm fairly certain that the opinion of the NLNAC and the opinions of 34 BON's trumps the opinions of a few posters on EMTlife.com. (sidenote: of the 16 states that have specific regulations for EC grads, 8 allow endorsement after varying numbers of hours of RN experience).

When it's all said and done, however, I did say in my first post in this thread that a traditional program is preferable, and that a BSN is even more preferable for various reasons. But, the school does not make the nurse. Period.