off-duty ethics

[Ewok Jerky]

at my full time job I am not an EMT, I am just a regular employee like eveyone else. my coworkers all know I am certified though. What would I do if something happened and someone said "beano is an EMT he can help!"
does that create a duty to act? what would you do Ina situation like this? I have thought about it an the bet I can come up with is to give instructions for someone else to help. any ideas or thoughts!

 

[firecoins]

why don't you just help? No one will follow your instructions when you are physically there to do it. Its ridiculous to be honest for you to say in an emergerncy I won't help but Ill tell you how. Do it or don't do it. When the ambulace shows up, just let them take over. It isn't a big deal.

What ethics are you concerned about? Just help out provided you aren't in any physical danger.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

my concern would be getting sued for malpractice. do good Samaritan laws apply if I were identified as an EMT?

of course I would help but I would not identify myself as an EMT, unless if I were acting as one

 

[AnthonyM83]

No, in California, there is no off-duty duty to act. There's no provision about whether other people ID you as an EMT, but you have to be clear that you aren't helping. If you do ID yourself, the caselaw says you would have a duty to act since others who might have stepped up otherwise might not since you "took command" of the scene.

This is not legal advice, just relaying what was taught in school.

The only reason I see to direct someone to help after them knowing you're an EMT might be if you've been drinking, cannot perform the interventions, and conscious prohibits you from walking away. THEN, maybe say, "Put pressure on that wound".

Honestly, I'd lie and just say, "No, I'm not. I just took a first aid class." Help. Then disappear.

 

[bstone]

It depends on the state. A minority have a duty to act if you are off-duty. If your co-workers know you have an EMT card and you fail to act when they alert you then it can possibly end you up in hot water. However, a majority of the states have no such duty to act. Helping out would be up to you. If an ambulance is a few short minutes away then you may not have much to worry about as by the time you call 911 and kneel down the bus is pulling up. Being in the sticks, however, can mean you may be the only one there for a while.

My rule is simple- if I see something happen or someone needs help I will give it to them after I call 911. I carry latex gloves and a CPR mask on my keychain, but that's it. I'm happy to help- if what I went to EMT school for a year to learn how to do (year=1 semester of Basic + 1 semester of Intermediate).

Just this evening I was walking in Central Square and I saw a woman hunched over on the sidewalk. I walked over and asked if she was ok, and she looked up at me while clinging a bottle of vodka. "Just drunk" she said. And I continued on my merry way.

 

[AnthonyM83]

Sorry, my reply was specifically for California where the original poster's location is listed. Not meant for other readers to take as advice for all. Consult local laws.

BStone, agreed. If it isn't a severe problem with ABC's, it's usually not worth it to stop in urban settings. That's why my car's first aid kit consists a CPR mask and gauze. If I were to find myself taking a BP or applying a cervical collar, that's not the kind of urgent situation that required immediate intervention.

 

[themooingdawg]

usually good samaritan laws go hand in hand with your scope of practice; therefore, limited liabilities are protected on your end. However, if it is determined that you acted outside your scope and in some way directly affected the outcome of the patient in a negative way, you are liable for future lawsuits. However, you have your EMT certs and you know basic life support procedures that if done correctly should not cause further injuries to the patient, so the answer is: why wouldnt you help?

 

[firetender]

I'm glad you got trained to help others in their time of need. May I always be healthy in your presence.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

thanks for the personal attack

im glad you are on this board to help others when they need help. may i never seek advice in your presence.

thank you for those who have given advice. as a new EMT im not sure about all the legalities of helping people. i would not have become an EMT if i didnt want to help people, and i dont want to mess up and do something stupid that might prevent from enjoying a long career in EMS.

on my way to work and accident happened right in front of me on the highway. i was going to stop to see if I could help, but i decided not to because, no one looked seriously injured, someone was already on the phone (i assumed to 911), and because unless someone needed cpr there wasnt much else i could provide.

when i got to work i wondered what would happen if something happened at work and i was called out to help and identified as an EMT, I dont have any equipment, no O2, no airways, no pocket mask, only the silly first aid kit in the breakroom. my original question is, would i have a duty to act if someone else identified me as an EMT, and thus be bound by a standard of care?

thank you firecoins when you say help, it isnt a big deal
thank you anthony for the idea of helping on the down low

mooingdawg- so if i understand you correctly, as long as i stay in my scope, and act in the best interest of the patient, i would be covered under good samaritan laws?

 

[TransportJockey]

However, you have your EMT certs and you know basic life support procedures that if done correctly should not cause further injuries to the patient, so the answer is: why wouldnt you help?

Because I carry no PPE. Because it is not my emergency. And because I know there are people on duty who will be coming.
The only little kit I carry is for me, I don't carry anything for working on anyone else.

 

[wyoskibum]

Yes you can be a Good Samaritian....

Here is my opinion: I'm not familiar with CA law, but I believe that when I have the Paramedic patch on my shoulder and/or have been dispatched to a call, then I have a duty to act. If I'm off duty or at my other job, then I shouldn't have a duty to act. That doesn't mean I won't.

In reality, what can you do that is going to expose you to liability? If you can take control of the situation, calm and reassure the patient, gather SAMPLE Hx, count pulses and respiration's and wait for EMS to arrive. If it's trauma, in addition to above, make sure the patient doesn't move. Manually stabilize c-spine if indicated, control any bleeding.

With some basic common sense and confidence, there is no reason not to help while off duty. The key is to realize that you just need to stabilize until EMS arrives as oppose to what you are required to do while on-duty.

Like I said, this is just my opinion and I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express. B)

 

[nemedic]

Here is my opinion: I'm not familiar with CA law, but I believe that when I have the Paramedic patch on my shoulder and/or have been dispatched to a call, then I have a duty to act. If I'm off duty or at my other job, then I shouldn't have a duty to act. That doesn't mean I won't.

In reality, what can you do that is going to expose you to liability? If you can take control of the situation, calm and reassure the patient, gather SAMPLE Hx, count pulses and respiration's and wait for EMS to arrive. If it's trauma, in addition to above, make sure the patient doesn't move. Manually stabilize c-spine if indicated, control any bleeding.

With some basic common sense and confidence, there is no reason not to help while off duty. The key is to realize that you just need to stabilize until EMS arrives as oppose to what you are required to do while on-duty.

Like I said, this is just my opinion and I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express. B)

If I were to come across an emergency off duty, I might help, might not. depends on the totality of the circumstances: is it a safe scene if at an MVA, probably too dangerous (not going near it unless it there is something clearly emergent that needs to be dealt with prior to ems arrival, which in my area, is rarely any more than 10 minutes after dialing 911.) If someone just keels over and codes on the sidewalk, i'll give CPR (if i dont have access to the CPR mask in my trunk it'll be compression only, or i'll direct a family member to if they're not too hysterical). If someone is bleeding, i'll help them to the extent i can with my limited first aid supplies (other than CPR mask, i have assorted bandaids, a few 4x4s, tape, antiseptic spray, and plenty of gloves). Also, the most helpful tool in my arsenal would be my cell phone to call 911 so the guys and gals on duty can provide more extensive care. As for legal issues, most states have clauses where even identified as a provider, while off duty and acting within your scope/in good faith, you are only liable for gross negligence. And while I don't have a fancy law degree, nor did i stay at a holiday inn express last night, I did just finish watching an episode of law and order i DVR'ed

 

[mycrofft]

I deleted my reply.

Act reasonably and don't charge for it, don't make it known you are available, and always say "Go see your MD".
If you act unreasonably, don't worry about "malpractice", worry about assault, battery, manslaughter or third degree murder.

 

[firecoins]

my concern would be getting sued for malpractice. do good Samaritan laws apply if I were identified as an EMT?

of course I would help but I would not identify myself as an EMT, unless if I were acting as one

1. if direct untrained people to do something and they screw up, you will be sued for malpractise. Step up and do it correctly.

2. Your doing first aid. Not brain surgery. Scene safety, BSI, ABC, C-spne precaustions.

 

[firetender]

It's a different world now, I guess

im glad you are on this board to help others when they need help. may i never seek advice in your presence.

Good comeback, and I deserve it.

And maybe you don't deserve my flack. It's just every time a thread pops up where everyone gets in a tizzy worrying about litigation I have to wince. Granted, I'm a dinosaur, but it really wasn't that long ago nobody did anything because no one knew how to do anything and many people died needlessly from lack of access to the most basic intervention at the most critical moment of need, like CPR, Heimlich and stopping bleeding. That's where your profession came from; to have people out there who could DO something.

So now when I hear of trained people having to stop and think about their liability before they take action -- on or off duty -- it bugs me. I mean, really, is there anyone out there who can cite one case where a medic, acting within his/her scope of practice got sued for taking action in any circumstance, Good Samaritan or not? (The key, obviously, is ALWAYS work within the scope of your training).

If you can show me five lawsuits in the last ten years I'll be very surprised, and then, I'll ask you this: Is the very remote possibility (considering how many un-noted interventions actually occur) you will be sued a viable reason to withhold your ability to take action in defense of someone who can't help themselves?

I don't think the ability to intervene in a life-threatening situation is something that's territorially, ethnically, religiously, legally, economically or sociologically determined. A life is a life and holding the knowledge of how to intervene is a Sacred trust. Put simply I'd rather spend a year in court than live with the knowledge someone died because I delayed taking action.

Now I'll have to acknowledge in the absence of an imminent threat to life you CAN still determine how much you want to get involved, if at all. If you quietly evaluate (and it doesn't have to be a "show" identifying you as a trained Provider) a person whom you suspect may be in danger, feel certain that the appropriate help is there, has been notified or is on the way, then, NO, you aren't obligated to do anything. Functionally, UNTIL you're sure you must intervene, it doesn't make sense to identify yourself. If someone identifies you as a Provider you can still direct the people involved INTO the next stage, not involving you (assuming non-life threat).

Please forgive me for minimizing your concern over one of the many personal, moral choices you will be called upon to make in your career.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

im glad you are on this board to help others when they need help. may i never seek advice in your presence.

thank you for those who have given advice. as a new EMT im not sure about all the legalities of helping people. i would not have become an EMT if i didnt want to help people, and i dont want to mess up and do something stupid that might prevent from enjoying a long career in EMS.

on my way to work and accident happened right in front of me on the highway. i was going to stop to see if I could help, but i decided not to because, no one looked seriously injured, someone was already on the phone (i assumed to 911), and because unless someone needed cpr there wasnt much else i could provide.

when i got to work i wondered what would happen if something happened at work and i was called out to help and identified as an EMT, I dont have any equipment, no O2, no airways, no pocket mask, only the silly first aid kit in the breakroom. my original question is, would i have a duty to act if someone else identified me as an EMT, and thus be bound by a standard of care?

thank you firecoins when you say help, it isnt a big deal
thank you anthony for the idea of helping on the down low

mooingdawg- so if i understand you correctly, as long as i stay in my scope, and act in the best interest of the patient, i would be covered under good samaritan laws?

As an EMT, furthermore as an EMT with "no equiptment," what aid are you planning on rendering, that could not be provided by almost anyone on scene?

 

[adamjh3]

As an EMT, furthermore as an EMT with "no equiptment," what aid are you planning on rendering, that could not be provided by almost anyone on scene?

Not everyone on scene is trained in even basic first aid. Shoot, most of the people I know don't even understand that pressure helps control bleeding. The equipment doesn't make the EMT, it's the skills.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

Not everyone on scene is trained in even basic first aid. Shoot, most of the people I know don't even understand that pressure helps control bleeding. The equipment doesn't make the EMT, it's the skills.

The same skills that are taught in elementary school gym classes throughout the nation? While not all may possess the knowledge, and fewer will be able to recall in an emergency situation, an EMT nor paramedic is not definitive care and is not likely to make a difference in long term outcome in most scenarios.

 

[adamjh3]

The same skills that are taught in elementary school gym classes throughout the nation? While not all may possess the knowledge, and fewer will be able to recall in an emergency situation, an EMT nor paramedic is not definitive care and is not likely to make a difference in long term outcome in most scenarios.

I fully agree. Would I render care? Probably not, unless there was a major ABCs issue. In sue-happy California it's probably usually better to just tell them help is on the way.

But it's kind of a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario. They now know that you are an EMT, and you are failing to render assistance. Are there legal repurcussions for that? I really don't know. But if you do render care, there's the one in a thousand people that will find a way to sue your *** into the next century.

 

[reidnez]

Put simply I'd rather spend a year in court than live with the knowledge someone died because I delayed taking action.

That about sums it up right there, doesn't it? I could not have worded it better.

It is unfortunate that we live in such a litigious society, that there is even a remote possibility of being sued for trying to help. It has a chilling effect which makes people (trained or otherwise) hesitant to act--a concept which, by the way, is exactly why good samaritan laws were enacted in the first place. We seem to be reverting somehow.