OFF DUTY+ a real emergency.

[TgerFoxMark]

Now i Have a Question... I am a Basic. I have all my own equipment (I am a bit of a Wacker, POV has lights, whole 9yrds) My partner and i have gone around and around on this... What Can I Use of my equipment if I am off duty and dealing with something that happened right in front of me? Heart Attack, MVA... ECT. (ok i will be honest... My personal vehicle is an 1993 GMC Medium Duty Ambulance, and is FULLY Equipped with everything we have on the work rig and Then some.)

Yes, I know i am NUTS!

 

[el Murpharino]

It depends on the state, but as a general rule, good samaritan laws state while you don't need to stop and render any aid, you cannot provide care above the level you're trained at if you do render care. The second part of this, to paraphrase NYS DOH article 30 - You will be liable for any injuries the patient suffers if it is a result of your gross negligence.

This site has a link of state specific statues regarding good samaritan laws
http://www.momsteam.com/alpha/features/cardiac_awareness_center/good_samaritan_laws.shtml

 

[paramedix]

I don't think this will really be applicable to your situation where you are located. I am operational in South Africa and here our paramedics and EMT's do assist whenever they arrive first on the scene of an accident or emergency. Almost the same as our off duty police reservists.

I think we have this unwritten rule that we have to assist, almost ask yourself the question "do you want emergency care if you were the victim?"

Here we can register with any malpractice institution that covers you when you are on duty as well as off duty. As long as you practice within your scope of practice and protocols. Reasonable man situation...

If I witness and accident, I will stop and try to assist WITHOUT compromising my own safety! (Provided I have equipment with me). Our Basic Ambulance Assistance have to work under supervision, but can render life saving care whenever needed.

You must be aware of the consequences and the risk you are taking when you assist on an emergency scene.

The most important of all.... DO NOT COMPROMISE YOUR OWN SAFETY!!!!

 

[ccems644]

Tger,

Sounds like to me you enjoy what you do. I may be wrong (I say the following based on where I live) but as long a s you stay within you scope of practice, call for "on Call" EMS unit and don't try to haul em to the hospital your probably not gonna get into trouble. I have lights and siren on my POV and am not afraid to use them. I carry my EMS duty bag with me at all times. I feel I am an EMT 24-7-365. (I feel the same for the Fire Dept I am on. I carry my Fire gear also.)
People in your community should be grateful to have a dedicated person like you living there...

 

[BossyCow]

Tiger,
You will need to review your agencies policies and procedures and work in accordance with those guidlines. I would be concerned with the expectation that is created in the minds of the pt.s and bystanders when a non-agency affiliated 'ambulance' shows up on a scene.

You say you have 'everything' your department rig carries. Are you carrying O2?.... a defib ?....airway adjuncts?... Backboards and straps?... C-Collars?... traffic control signs and equipment?

An agency rig is subjected to regular maintenance and check offs. It is also protected by the agencies liability insurance. What happens when you treat a patient with your lovely little bag of tricks but something fails? Your agency is going to leave you hanging in the breeze created by the rush of passing lawyers.

 

[reaper]

Most Good Sam laws let you preform BLS only. Does not matter if you are a medic. If you preform anything that is considered invasive, then you are practicing medicine without a license. You will be held liable and could lose your license. You are not under medical control when you are on your own!

Bandage wounds, hold c-spine and wait for a unit to arrive. That is your best bet.

 

[KEVD18]

if your serious about your set up, your out of your mind in every sense of the phrase. your setting your self up for all kinds of trouble. you realize the if you pull up on the scene of an incident in an ambulance, jump out and render care you are representing that your on duty eith an agency of some sort and opening yourself up to monumental amounts liability. i hope everything turns out ok for you but i see it going up in flames.

as far as off duty scope of practice, basic first aid/cpr only. no cspine, no iv's, monitor, drugs(even asa, o2, etc). i dont know where you live, but in ma emts operate as an extension of their services medical director. all of your bls skills are under standing orders from your services md, but are only in effect when your working under the flag of your company(paid or unpaid). your not covered off duty. which means that 95% of emt skills cant be performed off duty.

i have a feeling your going down in flames. i hope you realize the stupidity of your actions. its insanity.

 

[rescuepoppy]

off Duty + A Real Emergency

Tiger sounds like you have a bad case of the whacker syndrome going on there. Seriously I think the first thing you should do is to empty out the personal ride and do something to show that it is only for display purposes you are setting yourself up for some real problems with it. Take it from an older hand if you want to stop and give aid then by all means do it but remeber the saying KISS just do the basics, airway, control bleeding, stabilize c spine and give comfort stay well within scope of training. Dont give some lawyer extra ammo to work with

 

[rgnoon]

(ok i will be honest... My personal vehicle is an 1993 GMC Medium Duty Ambulance, and is FULLY Equipped with everything we have on the work rig and Then some.)

Yes, I know i am NUTS!

I SINCERELY hope that you are just a collector and that this truck is not your daily driver.

...wow...just WOW.

 

[SwissEMT]

You need help.

 

[BossyCow]

I think the answer to your first question would be, you can use and do whatever you are willing to assume the liability for in court, with an atty you pay for yourself.

You are setting up an expectation of a certain level of service. What kind of identifying marks are on your 'ambulance'? Does it say "Ambulance"? If it has the word "Ambulance" on it anywhere, you will need to conform to the local state licensing requirements for an ambulance. If it doesn't, you are treading a very fine line between enthusiasm and obsession.

 

[TgerFoxMark]

Yeah, it meets all the requirements here in Indiana. It was only taken out of service last year. and no, it doesnt have the badging anymore other than the star of life. (Daily drivers for me are a 1998 Dodge Dakota 4X4 and a 1992 Camaro RS, both have lightbars and sirens)

 

[Outbac1]

I'm sorry if this offends you, but I've got to call it like I see it. I think your heart is in the right place as you obviously want to help people. BUT You've got to grow up and take this seriously as a professional or get out of the business. You are setting your self up for a major disaster. If you continue it will be people like you who give the professionals a bad name. It's hard enough to convince people that Paramedicine is a profession with out "a bit of a Wacker" showing up to prove their point.

If you are serious about helping people, get educated to a Paramedic standard, work for a reputable employer, help people who need you and positively promote the profession.

 

[rgnoon]

Yeah, it meets all the requirements here in Indiana. It was only taken out of service last year. and no, it doesnt have the badging anymore other than the star of life. (Daily drivers for me are a 1998 Dodge Dakota 4X4 and a 1992 Camaro RS, both have lightbars and sirens)

Phew...For a second I pictured you driving an ambulance to work and such.

So, out of curiousity, do you take the ambulance to shows, and if so what kind of reaction does it get?

 

[KEVD18]

so if your not driving it daily, why do you have it? do you do "safety patrols" driving around looking for accident and such? i mean really, what the point of owning a stocked rescue?

 

[milhouse]

no offense man but are you nuts i just did a google search on your ambulance to see what it looks like and yeah......

like everyone else has said i think your setting yourself up for problems. and plus things expire. your suppose to have license's for things so what are you going to do when you pull up on scene and some big wig from the health department happens to see you there and after the call he jumps in your rig and asks you for your license's ok im pretty sure you'll have to have them since it is an active ambulance or atleast you are wanting it to be. just something to think about.

now i could understand wanting to have an old ambulance but not for what you want it as. i could see maybe restoring it to perfect condition and taking it to shows. or even making a patty wagon type thing so you and your friends could party in or so that you could take it to like a tail gating party or something like that but not to be driving around looking for an emergency. because even if you dont have ambulance plastered on the side of it people see the light bars the star of life and they dont know that it isnt an "ambulance". so again i think your setting yourself up for problems

now im sure your gonna do what you want but please take what every one has said to heart. and if nothing else call the health department in your area tell them what you want to do and what kind of problems would you fall under.

heres the image that i found. just to give you guys an idea. and also could you please post a picture of what it looks like thanks

 

[Ridryder911]

Got malpractice insurance and are you bonded and licensed as an ambulance in Indiana or that local community? Not from there, but I do know their EMS Bureau and that are they serious enough to protect their citizens from whackers!

Sorry, you have crossed the line! Obviously, it is time for a reality check. I am sure you are probably in close proximity of breaking some state and local codes and laws. Impersonating emergency services is a very serious offense! Even if you are a EMT or whatever level then you know better! What are you going to do, when that patient sues you for equipment failure, damage, etc. Can we (& the public) be assure that you and equipment are up to certification and state EMS standards?

Leave the patient care to the professionals and to the community that provides it. If you want to have an EMS business, then do it the right way and set up a private business and follow the protocol for such. Unless you are willing to donate the equipment to a local community, etc. then you are self absorbed in this "whackerism".

Personally, I hope they prosecute your arse for such behavior. You described that you have a "partner" so it is apparent your in EMS. You know better (or at least should). Seriously, it is your type that is a disgrace to the profession of EMS. Get over yourself that you are so special! Again, if you truly are concern and consider yourself a professional then donate it to a community that needs it and can use it, then allow the EMS Division to be assure it meet the standards.

R/r 911

 

[MSDeltaFlt]

Man, I've seen a lot of people like this. But to make sure I'm not mistaken, I'll add this:

Are you a volunteer? If you are then what you are doing is an investment; expensive investment, but an investment nonetheless. To each his own. You'd be an odd duck, but go with God.

If you are not a volunteer, here's where I start to get concerned.

You said you are not ALS. Depending on the state, if you show up on scene, you can be "in the way". If you are in the way badly enough, you CAN impede the public servants in the performance of their duties, which MIGHT get you arrested. I don't live there. I don't know you from Joe's housecat. Therefore, I do not fully know the situation. I'm just advising you that this might be a very tricky area to be.

It sounds like you might have a co-dependent personality in the form of a "hero complex". If left unchecked, it can get you into a lot of trouble.

God, I hope I'm wrong.

With respect.

 

[Ridryder911]

Tger,

Sounds like to me you enjoy what you do. I may be wrong (I say the following based on where I live) but as long a s you stay within you scope of practice, call for "on Call" EMS unit and don't try to haul em to the hospital your probably not gonna get into trouble. I have lights and siren on my POV and am not afraid to use them. I carry my EMS duty bag with me at all times. I feel I am an EMT 24-7-365. (I feel the same for the Fire Dept I am on. I carry my Fire gear also.)
People in your community should be grateful to have a dedicated person like you living there...

I highly suggest that you review and check to see you are really a EMT 24/7. Are you really covered by the city 24/7 for malpractice? As well, anytime one is not representing an agency they are not above a MFR. Unless one has a license to practice medicine.

Far as ..."not afraid to use them".. scares me. It is this type of attitude that we have discussed upon why it is shameless to allow such. What real authority do you have and truthfully what difference are your really going to make by arriving 1 minute earlier? I can argue that you probably place more people (including yourself) into more danger than helping.

R/r 911

 

[LIFEGUARDAVIDAS]

Tger,

After reading all the different replies this is what I have to say about the issue:

-About having your own equipment... I think that as long as it is equipment used to provide care within your level of training and certification AND it is legal to own it (as a private citizen) in your state: it's fantastic. In today's world (more in your country than anywhere else) there are too many lawyers. I support your enthusiasm and passion. (Once again, as long as you obtained it legally, have all the permits and or licenses needed /required by law).

-About using your own equipment while off duty... I think it is outstanding that you usually carry it (or part o it) in your POVs. Now, if you encounter yourself in an incident while off duty, first activate the emergency system and make sure the proper authorities (LE, EMS, Fire, etc.) are on their way. If this happens in an urban or semi urban area where emergency services respond within proper response-time there is no need for you to provide care beyond the REAL basic stuff (call for help, scene safety, ABC, reassuring the victim, crowd management, etc.). Not getting involved in further care has many reasons besides the legal ones, among them is that by the time you start it (in urban / semi-urban areas) EMS will be already on scene and you will be then in their way. In rural, partially isolated or isolated areas again, activate the emergency system making sure the professionals on duty are on their way. As long as you're trained and certified provide REAL basic care. If you know for a fact that EMS response will be delayed or compromised and you could represent the difference between life and death to the victim(s) then providing care within your training and certification is not a negative thing at all.

My advise about the above, be familiar about the legal considerations involved with your training and certification while both on duty and off duty.

-About having a POV that has the unmistakenly shape/design of an ambulance... One thing is having it as a collector or an emergency vehicles fan. Another one is using it daily for day to day things "just in case" something happens on the way and you're the first one on scene. Then make sure you have done enough in order to not confussing the public. Meaning: think of those members of the public that have no clue about emergency services and how they would react upon seeing your vehicle at an incident (Why an ambulance looks like that? Why its driver isn't in uniform? Why the agency / jurisdiction is not mentioned on it? Why even if it was the first vehicle on scene it wasn't used for Pt transport? etc. etc.).

Some recommendations about the above (assuming you are not interested in having a private ambulance company)... paint it in colors which are unusual for ambulances (including the star of life -what about a star of life in multiple colors?), have "OUT-OF-SERVICE ambulance" written somewhere on each side of it, etc. If your area is rural, partially isolated or isolated and you will use your POV on a "regular" basis, what about becoming part of a CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) or similar programs?

-About transporting a pt. in your POV... (I know you haven't mentioned it but in some replies the possibility was mentioned) I recommend you not to. Not only due to the legal considerations (not an emergency vehicle, you being off duty, what would happen if you get involved in an MVA, illegal imprisonment, kidnaping, etc. etc.) your intension might be the normal and right one but "too many lawyers in the world." Talking about laws... the main reason why we, as professionals, should respect them, follow them and enforce them -whenever possible and applicable- is because the law -ideally- treats everyone equally. Meaning: you might be a passionate, well-intended and responsible individual, HOWEVER if the law allows you to do it, it could allow anybody to do so and other individuals might not be like you. [Also, if you drive it who will ride in the back. -I guess it will be unlikely for you to have your partner while off duty].

-Finally, be sure by all means you are not (unintentionally) impersonating an emergency service worker. This, as R/r911 mentioned, is a serious offense. No matter if you are one at your job, it is a whole different thing when off duty. Check with your employer's legal dept. or with the state heath dept. Nothing wrong with being proud of your job or profession. How many people in today's modern world could say they love what they do? Yes, we are lucky. HOWEVER, one thing is wearing a shirt that mentions what you do, another is wearing a uniform while off duty. -Apply that to POVs. A bumper sticker and a magnetic strobe light is one thing, a former official emergency vehicle with a light bar is another way different one.

In my case, I am a professional lifeguard that except when in the US (4 months a year) I live and work in Argentina. Here both public lifeguard services and private sector employers never provide their lifeguards with proper equipment (mainly due to huge budget problems). In my case I provide services as a self-employed individual and I am planning to create a private company to provide such services in the future. I have my own equipment which with a big effort I have been purchasing very gradually. I do carry it to work in my POV and when off duty I carry part of it 24/7. So far it is not advanced equipment (jump trauma bag, pocket masks, first aid stuff...). I am planning to purchase an AED, BVM and O2 soon. I would only use it while off duty in the case I am in a rural, partially isolated or isolated area since in Argentina EMS is in a chaotic situation.

In Argentina there is a federal law that states off duty lifeguards are the only ones that have a duty to act in case there is a person in trouble in the water. Same as good samaritan laws, some cover you based on your "good intentions", according to other ones you must act. Be familiar with yours. (Also, don't forget to obtain consent before treating someone -EVEN when off duty).

I also remember watching on People & Arts once a show about a private company that cleans crime scenes after they are no longer part of an investigation (in order to provide a service to realtives and property owners). Anyways, the person that created it came up with the idea while working as an EMT and wondering who has to clean the mess... He bought a former ambulance (Ford E-350). He did leave the side lights but removed the light bar and painted it all plain / uniform white. [[JUST SOMETHING I REMEMBERED WHEN I READ THE THREAD]]

Well... Good luck and don't take unnecessary -legal- risks!

Saludos from Patagonia,


Guri