Nursing home resident dead after confrontation with police

[Jim37F]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...ent-dead-after-confrontation-with-police?lite



Are we so afraid for our safety that we let a shoe horn and a cane stop us? This should have been stopped BEFORE it got to the point of the butcher knife getting involved.

I can't help but think that of one of the paramedics tried to subdue/disarm him and wound up getting cracked in the head with the cane and needed treatment themselves then we'd be crucifying him for NOT doing exactly what they ended up doing, backing off and calling LE for a situation they clearly felt escalated beyond their control. After all, aren't we all pretty much taught from day one in Basic school that scene/personal safety is always the number one priority for an EMT/Medic?

 

[Handsome Robb]

Thank you, Jim.

 

[Clipper1]

They didn't kill him to stop him. He didn't die on scene. He was awake and talking on scene, and died hours later after being transferred to a second hospital.

If you would read what I had written you will notice it was written in general terms towards elderly patients. Anytime you use a taser or any type of weapon against someone old enough to be a geriatric the chance of death is very high.

 

[Rialaigh]

I guess my comment would be, why not give the guy what he wants...whether he was altered or not why not just give him what he wants. He's 95 years old, and unless he was actively bleeding out right there then I am guessing EMS personnel couldn't get close enough to do any kind of evaluation that would determine something imminently life threatening. He doesn't want EMS there, then I have no problem leaving, he doesn't want law enforcement there, then you leave a cop or two outside his door out of sight and get him a sandwich and a coke and wait an hour or two, go in when hes napping or after he has set all the weapons away from him, and have EMS come back out and transport for a psych and medical eval and then have him placed in an appropriate facility.

But seriously, unless the guy is actively threatening to slit his own throat, just have someone talk to him, make everyone else get out of sight, and give him whatever he wants....

 

[Rialaigh]

Also on second thought, I would be interested in hearing an explanation on why pepper spray was not an option or was not used in a situation like this. I'm not a law enforcement professional but from this side of the tracks it would seem a lot less risky then firing a taser at a 95 year old.....again, I can only guess but would be very curious as to why not that...

 

[mycrofft]

This is ridiculous. It's a SNF and the article is sketchy at best.

This occurred in a nursing home. Not the patient's home, not a public venue like a bar or a sidewalk. SNF's are private facilities with a common duty to provide safety and service to all , and if one individual decides to disrupt it, out he or she can go in a manner consistent with common sense and safety. Dialing 911 if a pt gets assaultive is not inconsistent.

"Stand you ground" is hogwash in a SNF.

"If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife". With all due respect, that is fruit way out on the end of the thin limb of argument, or a pretty good bit of sarcasm. It's A SNF. No "Strangers" pulled a nursing home invasion. .

I move that EMTLIFE stops posting headlines. :glare: They nearly always generate more static than meaningful discussion.

 

[JPINFV]

This occurred in a nursing home. Not the patient's home, not a public venue like a bar or a sidewalk. SNF's are private facilities with a common duty to provide safety and service to all , and if one individual decides to disrupt it, out he or she can go in a manner consistent with common sense and safety. Dialing 911 if a pt gets assaultive is not inconsistent.

Their website advertises it as a senior living apartment complex, not a SNF.

"Stand you ground" is hogwash in a SNF.

So if I'm attacked in a SNF I can't defend myself? Never mind that it isn't actually a SNF, it's the man's apartment.

"If he is being forced against his will and he has capacity, I have no issue with him drawing the knife". With all due respect, that is fruit way out on the end of the thin limb of argument, or a pretty good bit of sarcasm. It's A SNF. No "Strangers" pulled a nursing home invasion. .

It doesn't matter whether their strangers or not. If he has capacity, and nothing so far says that he didn't, does it matter? So if your neighbor is physically forcing you to go someplace you don't want to go, you should just go because you know them?

 

[mycrofft]

Again, five is four. I'm talking about the thread.

From the article:

"A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police."
===========
You can't have a resident at a housing or nursing or medical or movie or any other facility brandishing a real or simulated weapon or attacking people with common household articles. Period. Common sense. If my mom's facility let a resident stay who was threatening people she'd be out, and the majority of the other residents would be too. In real life, the offender would be out first, and if it escalated , via 911. If someone was doing it on my street I'd be on 911 and awaiting them if they turned onto my front walk.

The only way this parallels a man or woman demanding their personal space or defending their home with deadly force is through irony.

JPINV, you're a good egg, but this thread has gone past the realistic world and into lala land.

PS: again, I wasn't there, but the police measures AS DESCRIBED IN THIS SKETCHY REPORT seem excessive.

PPS: sidebar: isn't it ironic that persons who may be at most risk from being tasered (PCP or crank psychosis, elderly demented, uncooperative due to physiologic or pharmacologic reasons) are amongst those most likely to be tasered...instead of hit with a baton, choked out, shot, hit with sap gloves....they can be unruly or uncooperative because they are undergoing a lethal event already/anyway, like a CVA, intoxication due renal or hepatic failure, OD, polypharmacy, etc.

 

[ffemt8978]

It has now been ruled a homicide.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...home-park-forest-217441891.html#ixzz2aUbUERv2

Saturday's death of a 95-year-old nursing home resident who was shocked by a Taser and struck with bean bag rounds during a confrontation with police has been ruled a homicide by officials in the Cook County Medical Examiner's Office.

An autopsy showed John Warna died of blunt force trauma to the abdomen from being hit with the bean bags.

Officials at the Victory Centre of Park Forest, the south suburban home where Warna lived, said the man was displaying "unusually aggressive behavior" on Friday evening. When police arrived, they said Warna was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn.

So when the police arrived, he was armed with only a cane and a shoehorn...then he had the time to arm himself with a butcher knife while the police just happened to have a 12ga with bean bag rounds present?

 

[mycrofft]

It has now been ruled a homicide.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/loca...home-park-forest-217441891.html#ixzz2aUbUERv2



So when the police arrived, he was armed with only a cane and a shoehorn...then he had the time to arm himself with a butcher knife while the police just happened to have a 12ga with bean bag rounds present?

Someone who is still standing is not getting away from this unscathed now. Clear case of excessive force, cause of death found to be blunt force trauma.

 

[chaz90]

Isn't every police involved death technically a homicide though? I'm no expert, but homicide is really just one human killing another. Some end up being ruled justified or "manslaughter," but they all fit under the broad homicide definition.

 

[Aidey]

It was a 2 ft metal shoe horn, that can cause some serious damage.

And the a number of the cops around here keep bean bag rounds in their car. The first cop on scene could have radioed for back up and advised what was going on.

 

[JPINFV]

From the article:

"A 95-year-old resident of an Illinois nursing home died early Saturday, hours after being shocked with a Taser and bean bag rounds in a confrontation with police."

"The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address."

- http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...t-20130727_1_park-forest-taser-health-centers

Also...

http://www.pathwaysl.com/community/victory-centre-park-forest

The only way this parallels a man or woman demanding their personal space or defending their home with deadly force is through irony.

So senior apartments are no longer a home?

JPINV, you're a good egg, but this thread has gone past the realistic world and into lala land.

I think the same thing about everyone who says that Zimmerman can stalk someone, and then shoot them when confronted over his stalking.

I also think that we do a drastic disservice to our patients and facilities to their residents, when we gang up on them in order to push our will on them.

 

[ffemt8978]

It was a 2 ft metal shoe horn, that can cause some serious damage.

And the a number of the cops around here keep bean bag rounds in their car. The first cop on scene could have radioed for back up and advised what was going on.

Maybe, but considering the minimum range for bean bag rounds is 25 feet we're going to have to wait to see how far away he was when the rounds were fired.

 

[ffemt8978]

Isn't every police involved death technically a homicide though? I'm no expert, but homicide is really just one human killing another. Some end up being ruled justified or "manslaughter," but they all fit under the broad homicide definition.

Correct.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Redacted because I'm just going to get myself into trouble.

Homicide doesn't mean anyone is in trouble... :wacko:

 

[Rialaigh]

Maybe, but considering the minimum range for bean bag rounds is 25 feet we're going to have to wait to see how far away he was when the rounds were fired.

Good point, If he was inside the facility then I have a hard time seeing it being more than 25 feet but it could be...

 

[ffemt8978]

Redacted because I'm just going to get myself into trouble.

Homicide doesn't mean anyone is in trouble... :wacko:

True. All it means is that he died from blunt force trauma due to the bean bag rounds, and not a natural disease or process.

 

[Handsome Robb]

I'm surprised no one has tried to hang the hospital yet. Seeing as he died there and all. How long was he there before he coded? What kinda of imaging, diagnostics and treatment did he receive? Was he restrained and locked in a room until he calmed down or was he immediately evaluated for the abdominal trauma and tazing? Was a FAST exam preformed? If so, what did it find? Was this facility capable ot providing the ibterventions required to save this man's life? was he a DNR? What kind of meds was this guy on? Anticoagulant/platelet therapy plus blunt force trauma to the abdomen has the potential to be very bad very fast.

Too many unanswered questions to provide any real discussion without making massive assumptions.

 

[Rialaigh]

I think it would be easy to agree that less risky alternatives to a taser and bean bag rounds could/should have been pretty easy to come up with in most situations that I think we could imagine...pepper spray anyone? It should be as much of a learning lesson even if the situation was handled appropriately, could it have been handled better....based on all available information I would say it could have been handled much better...