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Zephyr
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EMTs, Paramedics, and Fire Inspectors are represented by one union in NYC.
New York's Poorest
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EMTs, Paramedics, and Fire Inspectors are represented by one union in NYC.
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Zephyr
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I'm not complaining. I thought about becoming an EMT for almost 3 years before I attended EMT school. I spoke with EMTs and Paramedics and picked their brains every chance I got. I still do. If I was in it for more money, I wouldn't have left the military, where I was getting paid way more than these guys do...
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Zephyr
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The job is not the same. How many calls does your unit respond to per day? Per year? How does this number compare to FDNY EMS' numbers?
There aren't "thousands more"-- FDNY EMS is going through a shortage right now, thus the mandatory OT.
True that. Contact your representatives. I've contacted everyone from the Mayor on up to the White House about this shortage. Maybe if they read enough of our emails and letters, they'll get the hint BEFORE the next MCI hits our country.
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Zephyr
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"Really? Then why is it even a topic? The pay there is much better than in other parts of the country, so really, if it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?"
But are other parts of the country equal in cost of living? I posted the article because I want to raise awareness-- NOT awareness of the low salaries, but awareness of the fact that low salary is a major contributor to the SHORTAGE. What do you think is going to happen at the next MCI if there is a shortage of EMTs? Sadly, AFTER the next MCI is most likely when the government will grant FDNY EMTs a raise and increase recruitment.
"So it's good that untrained people are providing the majority of the care? Hmmm..."
FDNY EMTs are NOT untrained. As was mentioned earlier, they have to go through EMT school TWICE, and then some.
"Proves my point again. If all they do is toss someone in the back and aren't able to do anything, why should they get paid more? As an EMt-B, in 5 minutes, what would they do for a critical ALS call? Drive faster?"
Who says that FDNY EMTs don't do anything?
"...My point being, if you look at the tables, the salaries are comparable, and any moron can become an EMT-B. Many do. So why pay them more?"
How is that comparable? FDNY EMTs make appoximately $10K less per year than firefighters.
But are other parts of the country equal in cost of living? I posted the article because I want to raise awareness-- NOT awareness of the low salaries, but awareness of the fact that low salary is a major contributor to the SHORTAGE. What do you think is going to happen at the next MCI if there is a shortage of EMTs? Sadly, AFTER the next MCI is most likely when the government will grant FDNY EMTs a raise and increase recruitment.
"So it's good that untrained people are providing the majority of the care? Hmmm..."
FDNY EMTs are NOT untrained. As was mentioned earlier, they have to go through EMT school TWICE, and then some.
"Proves my point again. If all they do is toss someone in the back and aren't able to do anything, why should they get paid more? As an EMt-B, in 5 minutes, what would they do for a critical ALS call? Drive faster?"
Who says that FDNY EMTs don't do anything?
"...My point being, if you look at the tables, the salaries are comparable, and any moron can become an EMT-B. Many do. So why pay them more?"
How is that comparable? FDNY EMTs make appoximately $10K less per year than firefighters.
Ridryder911
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It goes back to the old adage called professionalism.
Everyone in EMS wants to discuss how "recent or new" our profession is. I say B.S.! It is now over 40+ near half a century years old & I know for a fact EMS of FDNY is over 34+ years. As a boy scout, one of my mentors in life was Chief Paramedic for FDNY. So they have been around for a few days, now compare this to the computer division(s), and other recent industry divisions that is a specialty that has better pay and benefits as well more professional.
So the analogy or should I say :... "excuse" of us being "new".. is just that.
Now, what we DO NOT see in comparison to other professions is an active participation in promoting and regulating ourselves. Very few become active in lobbying, legislation, and promoting their own profession. They ASSume that someone else is going to do it for them. The other detrimental point is they as well will take what is given to them and settle for it. Look how many never finish something as little as completing a Paramedic program or as easy as an Associate Degree. Again, full of multiple excuses but in reality, if it was really a priority in life, one would do so ; just alike every decent paying profession.
Let's face it folks .. we in EMS are lazy! Not the physical type. No, we will work literally hundred of hours of work thus becoming sleep deprived, endangering our lives & those of others meanwhile attempt work multiple jobs, just make enough to pay for electricity. For what? ... So we can complain how "bad we have it" and yet do nothing about it. Seriously folks, do we not see something wrong here?
EMS is so fragmented, at this time it cannot be a profession in the U.S. Varying EMT levels, education and roles. EMT's maybe in shortage at NYC at this time, but give them a couple of weeks and they will be over flooded with applicants. Unfortunately it is our own fault. We make the EMT level so easy to enter and complete, then for some reason we promote it to anyone that has a desire for excitement, or even worse; to promote into another career. That of course results into an abundance of "certified EMT's". Management is quite aware of this phenomenon, and uses the numbers to their advantage.
Yes, we are own enemy. Why? Because we do nothing about it.
Why is that?
I believe it is for several reasons:
Most EMT's do not place much into their profession. They place very little time and money into it, therefore what else could one expect? Seriously, a few weeks of training, and the costs less than some televisions, and they expect a decent paying profession in return?
We continue to allow anyone to enter EMS programs. Then for some reason encourage those that are NOT really interested into EMS to "take the course" to help them into another profession or take it for fun and then perform the services for free!. What, no decent wages or jobs? Duh!
I met last week with a group of professional EMS educators (NOT instructors). This topic of course was being discussed. Almost in all other healthcare education courses, professionalism (promoting one's industry, standards & ethics) is always discussed in every course level. That is every 8 to 16 weeks in some form it is re-emphasized and reinforced. Students are mandated to participate in legislative and professional activities through associations or some form of class participation. How many students in your class became members of an EMT association or better yet: are you even a member?
Again, EMT's have a strange demeanor. We like to cry, whine, even pout about how bad things are but when it comes to time to effective change things, no one wants to participate. They much rather work for peanuts (and be able to complain about it) than to actually change things. WHY? ... So unfortunately, we get what we deserve....
R/r 911
Everyone in EMS wants to discuss how "recent or new" our profession is. I say B.S.! It is now over 40+ near half a century years old & I know for a fact EMS of FDNY is over 34+ years. As a boy scout, one of my mentors in life was Chief Paramedic for FDNY. So they have been around for a few days, now compare this to the computer division(s), and other recent industry divisions that is a specialty that has better pay and benefits as well more professional.
So the analogy or should I say :... "excuse" of us being "new".. is just that.
Now, what we DO NOT see in comparison to other professions is an active participation in promoting and regulating ourselves. Very few become active in lobbying, legislation, and promoting their own profession. They ASSume that someone else is going to do it for them. The other detrimental point is they as well will take what is given to them and settle for it. Look how many never finish something as little as completing a Paramedic program or as easy as an Associate Degree. Again, full of multiple excuses but in reality, if it was really a priority in life, one would do so ; just alike every decent paying profession.
Let's face it folks .. we in EMS are lazy! Not the physical type. No, we will work literally hundred of hours of work thus becoming sleep deprived, endangering our lives & those of others meanwhile attempt work multiple jobs, just make enough to pay for electricity. For what? ... So we can complain how "bad we have it" and yet do nothing about it. Seriously folks, do we not see something wrong here?
EMS is so fragmented, at this time it cannot be a profession in the U.S. Varying EMT levels, education and roles. EMT's maybe in shortage at NYC at this time, but give them a couple of weeks and they will be over flooded with applicants. Unfortunately it is our own fault. We make the EMT level so easy to enter and complete, then for some reason we promote it to anyone that has a desire for excitement, or even worse; to promote into another career. That of course results into an abundance of "certified EMT's". Management is quite aware of this phenomenon, and uses the numbers to their advantage.
Yes, we are own enemy. Why? Because we do nothing about it.
Why is that?
I believe it is for several reasons:
Most EMT's do not place much into their profession. They place very little time and money into it, therefore what else could one expect? Seriously, a few weeks of training, and the costs less than some televisions, and they expect a decent paying profession in return?
We continue to allow anyone to enter EMS programs. Then for some reason encourage those that are NOT really interested into EMS to "take the course" to help them into another profession or take it for fun and then perform the services for free!. What, no decent wages or jobs? Duh!
I met last week with a group of professional EMS educators (NOT instructors). This topic of course was being discussed. Almost in all other healthcare education courses, professionalism (promoting one's industry, standards & ethics) is always discussed in every course level. That is every 8 to 16 weeks in some form it is re-emphasized and reinforced. Students are mandated to participate in legislative and professional activities through associations or some form of class participation. How many students in your class became members of an EMT association or better yet: are you even a member?
Again, EMT's have a strange demeanor. We like to cry, whine, even pout about how bad things are but when it comes to time to effective change things, no one wants to participate. They much rather work for peanuts (and be able to complain about it) than to actually change things. WHY? ... So unfortunately, we get what we deserve....
R/r 911
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firecoins
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Yes the EMT-B needs to get paid more. I thought being the workhourse of the NYC system was clear enough for anyone to understand. Apparently not. NYC EMTs don't do nothing for their patients. One should get paid for the work they do. Garbage men, beaticians and cops are all nice professions but having nothing to do with EMT-Bs.
As I mentioned before, NYC EMT-Bs have several months more training than the 150 hour class so how are they untrained?
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Zephyr and Firecoins-
So far you still haven't given a real good reason for increasing the pay for EMT-B's in NYC. The closest you've come (Zephyr) is with the cost of living; yes, that does make a difference, you're right. But, it's possible to argue that that allready has been taken into account; a basic in NYC makes MORE than almost anywhere else. While it may not be enough to live on there, it's not enough to live on elsewhere either, for the most part. See my point?
So what if they take an EMT-B course twice? Honestly, who cares? Unless there is a huge amount of information in their academy and they end up treating their pt's much more than every other basic in New York (and the US) then...who cares if they essentially took the course twice; it's a nothing course. What training does an EMT-B in NYC get that people elsewhere don't? What makes them so special as a Basic?
Firecoins has insinuated that basics (and maybe paramedics) do very little in the way of treatements, and have transport times that are about 5 minutes long. If this isn't the case, then again, what do basics do there that they don't do elsewhere that makes them deserve so much money?
If you think that EMT-B's should get paid for the work they do...well what work is that? Seriously, it doesn't matter if you are taking ALS pt's for a 5 minute trip to the hospital if all you do is slap a NRB on them and say "hold on."
Neither of you has yet to explain what makes an EMT-B so special in NYC. Until you can do that, the only arguement you have for increased pay is the cost of living, which, like I said, it could be argued has allready been taken into account.
(I meant comparable salaries for paramedics, cops and firefighters, sorry; yes, an EMT makes much less, but again, they do less)
So far you still haven't given a real good reason for increasing the pay for EMT-B's in NYC. The closest you've come (Zephyr) is with the cost of living; yes, that does make a difference, you're right. But, it's possible to argue that that allready has been taken into account; a basic in NYC makes MORE than almost anywhere else. While it may not be enough to live on there, it's not enough to live on elsewhere either, for the most part. See my point?
So what if they take an EMT-B course twice? Honestly, who cares? Unless there is a huge amount of information in their academy and they end up treating their pt's much more than every other basic in New York (and the US) then...who cares if they essentially took the course twice; it's a nothing course. What training does an EMT-B in NYC get that people elsewhere don't? What makes them so special as a Basic?
Firecoins has insinuated that basics (and maybe paramedics) do very little in the way of treatements, and have transport times that are about 5 minutes long. If this isn't the case, then again, what do basics do there that they don't do elsewhere that makes them deserve so much money?
If you think that EMT-B's should get paid for the work they do...well what work is that? Seriously, it doesn't matter if you are taking ALS pt's for a 5 minute trip to the hospital if all you do is slap a NRB on them and say "hold on."
Neither of you has yet to explain what makes an EMT-B so special in NYC. Until you can do that, the only arguement you have for increased pay is the cost of living, which, like I said, it could be argued has allready been taken into account.
(I meant comparable salaries for paramedics, cops and firefighters, sorry; yes, an EMT makes much less, but again, they do less)
BossyCow
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But, by having representation in with a group, instead of unique to your classification doesn't mean your skills, your training and your specific job needs are going to be evenly represented.
At one time my husband (EMT-P) was in a department that had more FF than EMS personnel, the union regularly allowed contract language that didn't fully address the medics being up all night while the FF's slept. They ended up getting about $1 an hour more than the FF for being up all night
firecoins
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Zephyr and Firecoins-
No I don't see your point. Obviouysly you haven't seen mine. Come work i n NYC for so much money. Come show us.
And they PT and evoc training. Driving in NYC is just like anywhere else.
So much money? What is so much money? EMTs should get paid for the work they do. Its not a very concept. They have very high call volume compared to many places.
Your ignorance is showing. NYC EMTS have a high call volume. Carrying patients dows a 5 to 10 story walk is a way of life that rarely exists outside of urban areas andcan be very specific to NY.
actually I have. Sorry. Cost of living is one thing and the extemely high call volume. They deserve a raise.
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Why does a FF make more than a paramedic? Also... the FF page lists "fringe" pay... is it similar for medics, or do FF's get LOTS more money?
I know they get to dress up and go put out fires... but medics spend more time working, right?
I know they get to dress up and go put out fires... but medics spend more time working, right?
Firecoins-
You aren't saying anything new here, sorry. And you still aren't listing any valid reasons to increase the pay for an EMT-B. What should it be in your opinion, anyway?
Let me clear up my first point. A Basic in almost any part of the US will not be making enough to live off of, and they make less than a Basic in NYC. So, NYC has a high cost of living, but a basic makes more, so the cost of living apparently has been factored in. Even though they don't make enough to live off of, almost none do, and since the job is the same...they get paid essentially the same.
Do you honestly think that because they have to do some PT during their training that means they should be getting paid more? Oh wow. That is seriously funny. And you've said it twice now! Come on, you're joking, right? The EVOC...don't basic's drive elsewhere, and in urban areas, or areas with worse traffic than NYC? Nothing new there.
High call volume isn't enough. It should be grounds for maybe a bit more...but then, they allready get a bit more. If you want them to make more money, you need to explain what the work they do is, and not just cop out with "they run a lot of calls." Seriously, unless a basic is able to do a whole lot more than their counterparts in Bumbledump, Iowa, why should they get paid so much more?
So what if they are the "workhorse?" All that means is that the system is broken, and you'd like to perpetuate that by increasing pay for people that can't even treat their pt's.
The best I can get out of your arguements is that basics can't do anything except carry heavy loads to the ambulance, and then the hospital. If that's the case, what should probably happen is the city should contract with a moving company to run their BLS ambulances; those guys make better money and would be doing the same job according to you.
You aren't saying anything new here, sorry. And you still aren't listing any valid reasons to increase the pay for an EMT-B. What should it be in your opinion, anyway?
Let me clear up my first point. A Basic in almost any part of the US will not be making enough to live off of, and they make less than a Basic in NYC. So, NYC has a high cost of living, but a basic makes more, so the cost of living apparently has been factored in. Even though they don't make enough to live off of, almost none do, and since the job is the same...they get paid essentially the same.
Do you honestly think that because they have to do some PT during their training that means they should be getting paid more? Oh wow. That is seriously funny. And you've said it twice now! Come on, you're joking, right? The EVOC...don't basic's drive elsewhere, and in urban areas, or areas with worse traffic than NYC? Nothing new there.
High call volume isn't enough. It should be grounds for maybe a bit more...but then, they allready get a bit more. If you want them to make more money, you need to explain what the work they do is, and not just cop out with "they run a lot of calls." Seriously, unless a basic is able to do a whole lot more than their counterparts in Bumbledump, Iowa, why should they get paid so much more?
So what if they are the "workhorse?" All that means is that the system is broken, and you'd like to perpetuate that by increasing pay for people that can't even treat their pt's.
The best I can get out of your arguements is that basics can't do anything except carry heavy loads to the ambulance, and then the hospital. If that's the case, what should probably happen is the city should contract with a moving company to run their BLS ambulances; those guys make better money and would be doing the same job according to you.
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Zephyr
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Do EMTs and Paramedics in your area train in and perform HAZTAC? Or Dignitary Protective Details (providing around the clock close proximity medical backup to visiting dignitaries such as the President, the Pope, campaigning senators, the Dalai Lama, etc. alongside and training with Secret Service agents, etc.)? These are only two of the other additional missions that FDNY EMS performs.
Zephyr...you're doing the same thing that Firecoins is! Alebit on a slightly different track. (and yes, there are paramedics in my area that are on Haz-Mat teams and SWAT teams) Does every EMT-B working for FDNY get trained (and by trained I mean fully trained, including continuing training to ensure standards) in those things? If not (which I'm pretty damn sure is the case) then why should they get paid more? The ones that do, sure, they should be getting an extra incentive in their pay, or paid for the extra training they do, or something anyway, that's a given (hope they are). And medical backup doesn't mean much; you park your rig and wait for someone to get sick/injured. How is that any different than a regular day? (and given that almost every dignitary will have their own medical team standing by, that is a worthless arguement. also, it happens in other cities, so dat one no workie friend)
Come on, both of you, stop with the arguements that don't mean anything! All I've gotten so far is that EMT-B's run a lot of calls that have extremely short transport times and do extremely little, if anything, for their pt's, besides carrying objects, sometimes for longer distances, to the ambulance. Oh, and they can drive, and in their initial department training had to do PT.
No different than anywhere else.An EMT-B is in the medical field. If they aren't doing anything medically different for their pt's beyond what every other EMT is doing, then why pay them more? (cost of living has allready been covered) If all they really do is work in a "you call we haul," "load and go with no treatements" system, then really, why even have them? Hire some moving companies, they'd be doing essentially the same job.
It's funny, I first meant that as a joke. But now, with the inability of either of you to explain what it is that an EMT-B does in NYC that others don't do, or show that they really do treat people, I'm begining to get more serious.
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Zephyr
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a recommended solution
A simple analogy:
In the Marine Corps for example, Marines can become qualified in single or multiple skills, just like in most careers. E.g. A Marine who successfully completes jump/airborne school receives an additional MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) and gets to wear "jump wings" on his uniform. Another Marine who successfully completes dive/SCUBA school receives a different MOS and gets to wear a "dive bubble", etc. A Marine who completes both jump and dive schools receives yet a different MOS upon completion of the second school. This we call "dual cool". The Marines who go through these schools do it not only because their jobs require most of them to do so, but because they get paid extra once they're certified.
Plus, there's the extra prestige of wearing cool stuff on your uniform
This obviously occurs in the other branches of service, and in many other career fields. I know for a fact that a year or two ago, at least one of the counties in California was hiring dual certified FF/EMS personnel. I looked at the job details, and the pay looked GOOD-- not six figures or anything, but enough to make an old(er) Marine like me think more about switching job fields.
I didn't switch to get a raise. I switched for a CHANGE. If I was thinking strictly about money, I would've stayed on active duty (long enough to retire soon) and I'd still be making much more than what our poor NYC EMTs, Paramedics, FFs, sanitation workers, and cops are making.
Below are some figures I got from FDNY's site at
http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/general/mission.shtml .
According to FDNY's site, in FY 2003, FDNY had "892,017 Fire Apparatus responses to 432,969 fires, non fire emergencies and medical calls" and "1,267,340 EMS Unit responses to 1,088,378 medical emergencies". At the time, there were "10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers" and
"2,740 EMTs and Paramedics".
What were the rest of the 10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers doing while the FFs were responding to the 432,969 fires et al? Why couldn't they have been assisting the greatly outnumbered 2,740 EMTs and Paramedics in their vastly higher number of 1,088,378 calls? Because they don't GET PAID to do so.
Forgive my ignorance-- I'm new to all this EMS stuff. This has most likely been brought up before, but I recommend that we encourage FDNY FFs to cross train into EMS, and that we encourage more EMS personnel to cross train into FF. How? Once dual certified, we give them a desirable raise. Now, instead of having an EMS shortage, we can hopefully bump up the numbers to gradually solve the shortage problem. Then as FDNY attrition occurs from the normal retirements, deaths, people quitting, etc., we can downsize the department to a smaller number of dual certified, and the remaining (but less paid) singly certified, personnel. Kill two birds with one stone.
I don't claim to have invented this solution. As you know, this is already going on in many areas as we type and read these posts. (Now I just started another flame war over the "keep FF personnel separate from EMS" vs. the "combine FF with EMS into one person" debate.) What are your thoughts, as I doze off from lack of sleep?
A simple analogy:
In the Marine Corps for example, Marines can become qualified in single or multiple skills, just like in most careers. E.g. A Marine who successfully completes jump/airborne school receives an additional MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) and gets to wear "jump wings" on his uniform. Another Marine who successfully completes dive/SCUBA school receives a different MOS and gets to wear a "dive bubble", etc. A Marine who completes both jump and dive schools receives yet a different MOS upon completion of the second school. This we call "dual cool". The Marines who go through these schools do it not only because their jobs require most of them to do so, but because they get paid extra once they're certified.
Plus, there's the extra prestige of wearing cool stuff on your uniform
This obviously occurs in the other branches of service, and in many other career fields. I know for a fact that a year or two ago, at least one of the counties in California was hiring dual certified FF/EMS personnel. I looked at the job details, and the pay looked GOOD-- not six figures or anything, but enough to make an old(er) Marine like me think more about switching job fields.
I didn't switch to get a raise. I switched for a CHANGE. If I was thinking strictly about money, I would've stayed on active duty (long enough to retire soon) and I'd still be making much more than what our poor NYC EMTs, Paramedics, FFs, sanitation workers, and cops are making.
Below are some figures I got from FDNY's site at
http://nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/general/mission.shtml .
According to FDNY's site, in FY 2003, FDNY had "892,017 Fire Apparatus responses to 432,969 fires, non fire emergencies and medical calls" and "1,267,340 EMS Unit responses to 1,088,378 medical emergencies". At the time, there were "10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers" and
"2,740 EMTs and Paramedics".
What were the rest of the 10,725 Uniformed Firefighters and Fire Officers doing while the FFs were responding to the 432,969 fires et al? Why couldn't they have been assisting the greatly outnumbered 2,740 EMTs and Paramedics in their vastly higher number of 1,088,378 calls? Because they don't GET PAID to do so.
Forgive my ignorance-- I'm new to all this EMS stuff. This has most likely been brought up before, but I recommend that we encourage FDNY FFs to cross train into EMS, and that we encourage more EMS personnel to cross train into FF. How? Once dual certified, we give them a desirable raise. Now, instead of having an EMS shortage, we can hopefully bump up the numbers to gradually solve the shortage problem. Then as FDNY attrition occurs from the normal retirements, deaths, people quitting, etc., we can downsize the department to a smaller number of dual certified, and the remaining (but less paid) singly certified, personnel. Kill two birds with one stone.
I don't claim to have invented this solution. As you know, this is already going on in many areas as we type and read these posts. (Now I just started another flame war over the "keep FF personnel separate from EMS" vs. the "combine FF with EMS into one person" debate.) What are your thoughts, as I doze off from lack of sleep?
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Zephyr
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Not in NYC. I personally spent two hours talking to a HAZTAC Paramedic who does Dignitary Protecdtion. FDNY EMS provides medical support, NOT the dignitary.
Jeez, all I did was post a newspaper article. I'm new to all this EMS stuff...
Yes, Zephyr, even in NYC it happens. It doesn't happen all the time, didn't mean to imply that, but as the importance/wealth/role/whatever of the dignitary increases, the odds of them having their own medical support also increases. This doesn't mean that the local service won't still have units there for standby; most likely they will. They just won't always be responsible for anyone that important. And not every EMT or Paramedic in FDNY is trained to do that; like your Marine analogy; the ones who are get paid for the extra training (or damn well better be compensated in some way or another) the ones who aren't get nothing extra.
If you don't know much about EMS then this can be a hard issue to understand at first glance. But, in reality, an EMT-B can do extremely little, if anything, to treat a patient. The training last about 120-150 hours and amounts to very little. Simply put, they get paid so little because they do so little; this is the MEDICAL field; if you aren't helping your patients MEDICALLY, then why should you be paid more? To go with your Marine analogy, consider the EMT-B's the privates of EMS; trained to the lowest level and with the least responsibility.
My advice right now: step back a bit until you understand how the system works. Not just in NYC, but how EMS across the country is run. It'll start to clear up why a EMT-B makes so little, and why that is pretty much appropriate.
Outbac1
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Everyone who goes to work should make a livable wage. BUT they don't. How much does one make selling coffee at a Tim Hortons or Dunkins, or pumping gas etc? I bet it is minimum wage, (if there is one), and that doesn’t buy much around here. Generically EMT-Bs are ambulance drivers with a better first aid course. They do a lot of the EMS workload and it would be hard to run any system without them. But in many places there are lots to choose from, and that makes it a buyers market. The more trained in any job, trade or profession one is, the better the pay and benefits tend to be.
Until you can get your collective states and national regulatory agencies, (or whatever they are called), together, basic and minimum is what it is going to be. If you can't get your act together nationally at least get it together on a state level. Raise your minimum standards and the required education. That alone will get rid of a lot of the surplus, part time, and partially interested people in it. This will make more room for those who are serious about EMS as a career.
We did it here in Canada in 2001 and gradually the provinces are getting with the program and making the changes. Example New Brunswick, (population 750,000), has upped their minimum std. to PCP. The current ambulance drivers have 3 years to upgrade or leave. There are about 150 new PCP students graduating this month. By Christmas they probably will all have jobs at about $20.00/hr.
If you want the change you will have to make it happen. It won't change by itself. The public has to know what they have and what they could have. I bet few would want someone with a lead foot when they could have someone actually treat them at home and enroute.
This is not meant as a slur to anyone, just constructive criticism. I know from reading this site there are many EMT-Bs who are hard working and dedicated to their job and patients, and many who try to upgrade their knowledge both formally and informally.
The US was a great leader in prehospital health care but has sat idle for too long and has been passed by many other countries. Its time you caught up.
Until you can get your collective states and national regulatory agencies, (or whatever they are called), together, basic and minimum is what it is going to be. If you can't get your act together nationally at least get it together on a state level. Raise your minimum standards and the required education. That alone will get rid of a lot of the surplus, part time, and partially interested people in it. This will make more room for those who are serious about EMS as a career.
We did it here in Canada in 2001 and gradually the provinces are getting with the program and making the changes. Example New Brunswick, (population 750,000), has upped their minimum std. to PCP. The current ambulance drivers have 3 years to upgrade or leave. There are about 150 new PCP students graduating this month. By Christmas they probably will all have jobs at about $20.00/hr.
If you want the change you will have to make it happen. It won't change by itself. The public has to know what they have and what they could have. I bet few would want someone with a lead foot when they could have someone actually treat them at home and enroute.
This is not meant as a slur to anyone, just constructive criticism. I know from reading this site there are many EMT-Bs who are hard working and dedicated to their job and patients, and many who try to upgrade their knowledge both formally and informally.
The US was a great leader in prehospital health care but has sat idle for too long and has been passed by many other countries. Its time you caught up.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
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Yadda, yadda, yadda... It does not mean crap where or what your the service is. EMT pay is crap, for a reason.. too many of them. The course is set to a basic science level, and very little is taught more than advanced first aid. Sorry, I don't care if they personally transport or carry 500,000 people, walk through chemicals, or take care of the Pope. The responsibility and the expected training level is the same. Provide immediate care safely enough for ALS to arrive and then to stabilize for transport.
One could justify and make the same point for the EMT in BFE, Montana that has to dissemble the combine, and be the sole provider for transporting the patient over 75 miles.
Cross training Fire Fighters to do EMS is a BAD idea. The same BAD IDEA of having EMS in a Fire Service. Two different and distinctive professions. Why not place EMS in Sanitation Department? Makes as much sense.... EMS is health care.. period. Ironically, look at JEMS and EMS front cover.. It is nauseating to see so much helmets and bunker gear at one scene. Sorry folks, I have been at MCI's. Fortunately, we did not have so much "help". I counted in one picture alone at least 30 helmets on one EMS call.. Now, the bad thing. No one was doing anything but the medics and a very few associates. The rest was standing there.. of course on the clock, justifying themselves.
Should FD's assist and help EMS, yes! Should EMS assist and help Fire Services on responses again you bet! That is it. Look North at our neighbors. Good clean interpretation of what agencies roles are. Fire Service is a support & addition to EMS, not replacement, not in charge, not the provider of it. Yes, Fire Service can be MFR, as their role should be, but to hand off to EMS. The same as if EMS should respond to structure fires and HazMat, but definitely should not suppress or handle the primary situation, one would not even consider such.
If EMS needs assistance on a call, then other agencies should be involved to assist. The public interest should be the main goal, not the individuals "job". Just alike FD need to assist, Law Enforcement should as well. It does not take a lot of medical training to carry and lift patients.
We are making this too hard. Allow the ones that are educated the most care for the patient, allow each other to assist to their limits as needed. It is not that hard.. really.
R/r 911
One could justify and make the same point for the EMT in BFE, Montana that has to dissemble the combine, and be the sole provider for transporting the patient over 75 miles.
Cross training Fire Fighters to do EMS is a BAD idea. The same BAD IDEA of having EMS in a Fire Service. Two different and distinctive professions. Why not place EMS in Sanitation Department? Makes as much sense.... EMS is health care.. period. Ironically, look at JEMS and EMS front cover.. It is nauseating to see so much helmets and bunker gear at one scene. Sorry folks, I have been at MCI's. Fortunately, we did not have so much "help". I counted in one picture alone at least 30 helmets on one EMS call.. Now, the bad thing. No one was doing anything but the medics and a very few associates. The rest was standing there.. of course on the clock, justifying themselves.
Should FD's assist and help EMS, yes! Should EMS assist and help Fire Services on responses again you bet! That is it. Look North at our neighbors. Good clean interpretation of what agencies roles are. Fire Service is a support & addition to EMS, not replacement, not in charge, not the provider of it. Yes, Fire Service can be MFR, as their role should be, but to hand off to EMS. The same as if EMS should respond to structure fires and HazMat, but definitely should not suppress or handle the primary situation, one would not even consider such.
If EMS needs assistance on a call, then other agencies should be involved to assist. The public interest should be the main goal, not the individuals "job". Just alike FD need to assist, Law Enforcement should as well. It does not take a lot of medical training to carry and lift patients.
We are making this too hard. Allow the ones that are educated the most care for the patient, allow each other to assist to their limits as needed. It is not that hard.. really.
R/r 911
Outbac1
Forum Asst. Chief
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Well said.