medics with attitudes

gposs71

Forum Ride Along
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How do you and your squad deal with medics who think they are flawless and nothing BLS does is good enough?
 

medic417

The Truth Provider
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I promote them.:unsure:

Really not sure what you are asking with your question. You can not force someone to think the "basics save Paramedics" is factual. You will find some of us respect the efforts the lower certified people make but you will find others that will not. You can not force respect it must be earned.
 

abckidsmom

Dances with Patients
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Flawless? I discipline that kind of behavior, usually by applying strong negative peer pressure.

Nothing BLS is good enough? There are better ways to put it.

Sounds like you're a volly squad? Good luck. You need to call on the most experienced ALS providers to lead the way in developing good attitudes. It's hard to discipline in a volunteer squad because instead of having a crappy provider, you have no provider, and it looks even worse.
 

adamjh3

Forum Culinary Powerhouse
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Sometimes it comes down to a breakdown in communication. A does something one way, B thinks it should be done another way and tells A how it should be done. B comes off looking like an a-hole.

I know I've come off like that before without meaning to, it's prone to happen at 0400 in the final stretch of a 72 hour shift.
 

CANMAN

Forum Asst. Chief
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Alot of good points on this thread. It would definately help to clarify what kind of system you are in. I will be honest in saying that everytime I have had a negative call involving a EMT-B it has been a volunteer. There are also MANY MANY times I have had exceptional calls with volunteer EMT-B's and I 100% of the time to make it a point and commend them on a job well done.

I look at it like this. Me=EMT-P with a license, EMT-B is a certification. The amount of training involved does not give me the "I am god complex" but I did work very hard and endure almost 1700hrs more of education. This is also my CAREER, full-time, what I do to make a living. Someone who does this day in and day out is going to be much stronger then someone who volunteers and does it one night a week or less.

I have met and worked with great medics and emt's as well as really crappy emt's and medics. I think alot depends on what kind of arena you are working in.

With all of that being said I had a call this past shift that is a prime example of how my system works. Dispatched for breathing problems severe distress, volunteer EMT-B provider jumps on the career (me and my partner) paramedic unit as we are going out the door. We are a paid crew in a volunteer house so they can ride with us whenever they feel and aren't even required to tell us if they are riding. So we are going down the rode. I didn't even know this girls name so i asked her, and also asked if she was a EMT or a student. Get to the call, dude is sick, CPAP him etc etc and in the process drained out portable O2 tank. So we are transporting to the hospital and I am getting IV access and consulting and I asked if she knew how to change the O2 bottle. She said yes, long story short she had no clue and I had to do it after the rest of the things I was doing. Prime example of how I was counting on someone to deliver a basic skill and they couldn't accomplish that for me. If I would have known I most likely would have spent an extra minute or two on the scene and changed it myself. Once we came back I made it a point to go over the proper way to change the tank and told her if she doesn't know how to do something to tell someone before just saying yes and screwing the pooch.
 
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18G

Paramedic
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I've experienced a few of those types of Medics when I was an EMT. And I always vowed never to allow myself to act like them when I became a Paramedic. Why some Medics get that complex I'm not really sure but yeah it does suck.

Unless the Medic with the attitude goes overboard there isn't much you can do except to tactfully try to put them in their place. If it's causing issues with working as a team you can always report it to your line officers and let them address it with the ALS service. I'm assuming these are Medics not within your own organization?
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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Me=EMT-P with a license, EMT-B is a certification.

...and what's the functional difference between the two based solely on the certification/licensure distinction? Aren't both providing a restricted service (i.e. you can't provide care on an ambulance without some sort of government permission)? Don't both face a government committee regarding their actions if they screw up? Are the standards lower for EMT-Bs because they are certified, or because they are EMT-Bs?
 

CANMAN

Forum Asst. Chief
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To answer your question JPINFV yes there is a huge differential when it comes to a CERTIFICATION as a EMT-Basic and a LICENSE to practice as a Paramedic. The easiest way to explain it is when operating on the scene of a call the EMT-P is in charge and RESPONSIBLE for all patient care. Legally they will not care or come after a EMT-Basic provider if there was a EMT-P on scene ALSO PROVIDING medical care. End of story. I am not sure if your reply was a question or the start of a responsibility and liability discussion......
 
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JPINFV

Gadfly
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...and if an EMT is working on the scene with a bunch of first responders, isn't the EMT responsible for the care provided by the first responders?
 

Phlipper

Forum Lieutenant
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I guess I'm very lucky. The medics I work with are generally very good at their jobs, patient with the rest of the crew, and they love to teach. One only has to show a motivation to learn, to want to pitch in and handle pts, and give them the appropriate respect - and they do deserve respect, because their butts are on the line in ways ours aren't. Our medics bend over backwards for a good Basic or MR who wants to step up and who isn't lazy.

So when they have bad days/calls they get a lot of slack for grumpiness. It happens. It's a tough and often unrewarding job with a tremendous amount of risk. But if you have one who is a typical Paragod every day and just bossy and grumpy and disrespectful you either have to talk to them one-on-one and clear the air or try to get on a different team. That or a different job. Good luck.
 

EMS49393

Forum Captain
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Alot of good points on this thread. It would definately help to clarify what kind of system you are in. I will be honest in saying that everytime I have had a negative call involving a EMT-B it has been a volunteer. There are also MANY MANY times I have had exceptional calls with volunteer EMT-B's and I 100% of the time to make it a point and commend them on a job well done.

I look at it like this. Me=EMT-P with a license, EMT-B is a certification. The amount of training involved does not give me the "I am god complex" but I did work very hard and endure almost 1700hrs more of education. This is also my CAREER, full-time, what I do to make a living. Someone who does this day in and day out is going to be much stronger then someone who volunteers and does it one night a week or less.

I have met and worked with great medics and emt's as well as really crappy emt's and medics. I think alot depends on what kind of arena you are working in.

With all of that being said I had a call this past shift that is a prime example of how my system works. Dispatched for breathing problems severe distress, volunteer EMT-B provider jumps on the career (me and my partner) paramedic unit as we are going out the door. We are a paid crew in a volunteer house so they can ride with us whenever they feel and aren't even required to tell us if they are riding. So we are going down the rode. I didn't even know this girls name so i asked her, and also asked if she was a EMT or a student. Get to the call, dude is sick, CPAP him etc etc and in the process drained out portable O2 tank. So we are transporting to the hospital and I am getting IV access and consulting and I asked if she knew how to change the O2 bottle. She said yes, long story short she had no clue and I had to do it after the rest of the things I was doing. Prime example of how I was counting on someone to deliver a basic skill and they couldn't accomplish that for me. If I would have known I most likely would have spent an extra minute or two on the scene and changed it myself. Once we came back I made it a point to go over the proper way to change the tank and told her if she doesn't know how to do something to tell someone before just saying yes and screwing the pooch.

This. ^^ Exceptionally well put, I can not improve upon this, so I will just agree.
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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It is really hard to give any advice without knowing more specifics. There are definitely paramedics with attitude problems out there, but I've also noticed how experience and education differences can end up causing problems.

The last agency I was at was a volly FD, when I got my paramedic I was really the only practicing medic. We had a couple others, but they were assistant chiefs or never around. Our Chief routinely called paramedics "paragods" before I ever went to school. When I came back from my internship there were a good number of problems, most of them stupid, and always blamed on me being a paramedic now. There was the time I didn't know my co-worker had passed his intermediate test while I was out of town, so I started the IV, offending him and getting myself reported to the Captain. There was a discussion about not giving everyone 15lpm, and a discussion about giving a COPDer more than 2lpm. In both of those cases the people I was working acted like I was committing some grievous violation of appropriate medical care, when in reality a broken leg doesn't need 15lpm, and someone who is cyanotic does. It really didn't matter to anyone that I was clinically right, what I was doing was going against what their EMT B/EMT I classes had taught so I was out of line.

Another more current example was we (my EMT B partner and I) made the decision to take a patient off of a back board. The patient was in a minor MVA and complaining of ankle pain, they had been up walking around, no neck/back pain and no LOC. It was a 20+ mile drive. A volunteer, EMT B only agency had been the first responders.

I'm pretty sure we offended them. I've noticed that no matter how polite one is, or how much one tries to explain their actions in those cases, the other people are always offended. They may have perfectly packaged the patient, but it wasn't indicated and was going to cause a very uncomfortable ride for the patient.

I'm not trying to turn this around and shift blame, like I said, there are a lot of medics out there with attitude problems. I just also want to make the point that what is perceived as a problem by someone may not be, it may just be a difference in education.
 

usafmedic45

Forum Deputy Chief
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How do you and your squad deal with medics who think they are flawless and nothing BLS does is good enough?
Hang their asses out to dry when they do screw up. Document the hell out of it and hand it over to the medical director when the time comes.
 

usafmedic45

Forum Deputy Chief
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Me=EMT-P with a license, EMT-B is a certification.

So you can practice independent of your medical director? If not, what you're looking at is nothing more than feel good semantics. Not to detract from the rest of your post, but I thought I would toss it out there.

This is also my CAREER, full-time, what I do to make a living. Someone who does this day in and day out is going to be much stronger then someone who volunteers and does it one night a week or less.

You know...except for the volunteers who are nurses (in a useful specialty), RTs, docs, PA-Cs, etc. ;)
 
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traumahawk

Forum Ride Along
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I am a volly as well as paid EMT. When I first got my cert medics did give me hard time. But when they saw I knew what I was doing as an EMT they where great with me. When I didn't know I told them I do not know. And instead of making my self look like a fool they respect it more when u tell them u don't know. BLS is not a hard skill to learn. I picked I up very fast and was on my own two feet in the skill very quickly. Now here is the thing. I believe volunteering is great that's y I do it. But even some of my guys I get a frustrated with becuz they only do this one day a week and they don't have the greatest experience on the job and even I get mad at them EMT To EMT. Learn ur skill and instead of worrying about the attitude of a medic learn ur skill and be at ur best.
 

mgr22

Forum Deputy Chief
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How do you and your squad deal with medics who think they are flawless and nothing BLS does is good enough?

I'm just wondering -- how do you know those medics feel that way? Would it be worth considering the possibility that there's a misunderstanding? What would you want someone to do if they were making those kinds of assumptions about you?
 

Shishkabob

Forum Chief
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Are there medics with attitudes? Hell yes. Hate them.


But at the same time you need to view it from our perspective. We (generally) have way more education (atleast 10x the amount of an EMT if you want to be specific). We (generally) have a bigger clinical and knowledge base, with a longer looking perspective at what we're doing now and how it will effect the patient in the long run, not just 10 minutes from now. We have to deal with the thought process of a lot more drugs than you, a lot more treatment modalities, and a lot more complications in our differential diagnosis. We DO have a bigger legal responsibility-- We're held to a higher standard than EMTs. Something goes wrong, we have a helluva lot more to lose than you.

And we are expected to take control of the scene and patient care from the moment of contact until we drop the patient off at the ED. Part of that means being assertive... and some people view being assertive as being an ***. They aren't the same.



Most medics I know aren't purposefully trying to be jerks to EMTs, but when you're trying to get a lot of things done quickly, someones feelings might be hurt. I know I'll be seen as crass with some EMTs at times while trying to get stuff done on a call, but I always try to apologize afterwards, among other things to show that you're not "just the driver" and I'm not "just the medic", but that we're partners.



But even still, it IS my patient, and it IS my call. If I piss a "lower" provider off because they don't agree with me while I provide competent medical care, oh well, tough noogies, deal with it.
 

cmetalbend

Forum Crew Member
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Are there medics with attitudes? Hell yes. Hate them.

But even still, it IS my patient, and it IS my call. If I piss a "lower" provider off because they don't agree with me while I provide competent medical care, oh well, tough noogies, deal with it.

Ya see, it's comments like this that fuel the EMT vs Paramedic fire. A call is not determined to be yours or mine, its OUR. Sure your in charge, but without EMT's or help in general you aren't gona save chit. Period. But seriously the ER doc gets all the glory. So why are we waisting time trying to put each other down or "In there place". And I really like that post till the last paragraph.<_<
 
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traumahawk

Forum Ride Along
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One things that medics do need to understand is that you where once a basic. Yes you did go to school and yes u do have a higher understanding of medicine and the human body. Now I know I am a good EMT. But that's what I am and that what I know. Don't put me down because I don't know every thing. That's y u r on scene in the first place. Now I will not stand here and say that their is excuse for stupid moves made by some EMTs like I said in my last post. But once again u where in the same shoes I was once. Don't forget where you came from.
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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I don't think Linuss' post was about glory or credit. No matter how much teamwork happens, there is always one person that is ultimately held responsible. In most places that is the paramedic. I don't give a rats tail about who gets credit for what, but I do care what I'm going to be held responsible for. I work in a system with EMTB/FFs and Paramedic/FFs, and my partner is usually a basic. It doesn't matter if it is an EMT or a Paramedic, I'm not keen on being held responsible for what anyone else did, no matter their certification level.
 
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