LEO Refuses to do CPR on Child Drowning Victim... Right or Wrong?

[redcrossemt]

We have a responsibility to treat the sick and injured to the best of our ability and to an extent we are able to do so.

I would not say that you are immature, nor ignorant. However, your logic is flawed.

I will give you that EMS has a responsibility to treat the sick and injured. And I think we would agree that LE has a responsibility to arrest those who break the law.

As far as I can tell, you are saying LE has a responsibility to treat the sick and injured. So, therefore, EMS should be arresting people.

Similarly, do EMS providers have a responsibility to "improvise" some garden-hose hack of a solution and attempt to fight a fire because we are public servants???

FD =/= EMS =/= LE

Even if I morally think the police officer should have done compressions, or improvised, or whatever; he had no actual duty to. He will have to deal with the ethical and moral dilemma that this causes. We should not judge him, though; as we weren't there.

 

[kittaypie]

The fact that this mother gave her child to the LEO substantiates the trust and confidence she had in his position as a public servant and he violated this trust. As I said, he could have used almost anything as a barrier...a zip lock bag with a hole in it, a cloth. etc, yet he didn't. In NY there were two off duty firefighters who were suspended because they refused to treat a sick person, and justifiably so. I see no distinction.

Someone asked if the cop could have made a difference...does it matter? The fact is we may never know because he didn't try. Someone else said EMS was 4 minutes away...I don't know about what classes other people are taking, but I learned in 6th grade 4-6 minutes of the brain being deprived of O2 and sugar results in necrosis...I guess we will never know if him/ her performing CPR would have made a difference, but as a proud parent myself I would be, as I am now, infuriated at his lack of compassion toward a baby in need.

two things:

1. a ziplock bag with a hole in it is not an effective barrier device.

2. "In his report, Williamson confirmed Bradford and the neighbor stopped CPR and that he had instructed them to continue. The officer reported that when he noticed the procedure was not being done properly and that Bradford was blowing air into the boy’s stomach, he told the mother and another woman how to properly administer CPR."

CPR was being done while the sheriff was there. i'm doubtful him taking over CPR would've made a difference.

 

[Cory]

When a person calls 911, they believe they are experiencing an emergency situation. When a public safety official arrives on scene, those people place their full trust in the person responding. An officer may not be able to give the same level of care that an EMT/Paraemdic could, but it is a d*** shame to think that an officer would arive on scene and do absolutely nothing. Police officers are not just meant to arrest. They are here to "protect and serve", and that officer should have done everything in his power to assist, and if an officer truly is not trained in any way, then that should be a wake up call for them.

 

[akflightmedic]

When a person calls 911, they believe they are experiencing an emergency situation. When a PUBLIC SAFETY official arrives on scene, those people place their full trust in the person responding. An officer may not be able to give the same level of care that an EMT/Paraemdic could, but it is a d*** shame to think that an officer would arive on scene and do absolutely nothing. Police officers are not just meant to arrest. They are here to "protect and serve", and that officer should have done everything in his power to assist, and if an officer truly is not trained in any way, then that should be a wake up call for them.

So once the safety has been compromised, such as this case...are you saying they must now become a medical provider as well?

He coached them on proper CPR. I think he "served"...just because you personally do not agree with how he chose to "serve" does not mean he should be hung out to dry. "Doing everything in his power" may very well consisted of him coaching them on how to do CPR.

Those who can, do; those who cannot, teach.

 

[Jeffrey_169]

I must say there are some, at least in my opinion, inaccurate analogies being made to my post. To say EMS should be arresting people is not what I said, nor did I say a zip lock bag was as effective as a good barrier. To use the logic of some of those who replied to me would be to throw common sense out the window, in my perspective. So, a PD officer only has to arrest people who break the law? Okay, then a teacher should have no obligation to report child abuse because they are not LE officers; I have no responsibility to report a drunk driver because I am not a LE officer, and really no one has a responsibility to stop and help anyone if they are not on duty. Because I am not a psychologist I should not counsel a friend, and because I am not a CNA I shouldn't the old lady cross the street. I remember a time when Americans cared about their fellow American, and although we were poor we never starved. When a peace officer dons his uniform he is communicating his willingness to help someone else. LEO's wonder why the public has no faith in them, and why people don't respect them, and then they go pull a stunt like this...I just can't imagine.

When you are trying to persuade the public you are there to help them, yet you refuse to treat them as people worth saving, you are saying one thing and doing another. I would flip my lid if I discovered a public servant, WHOSE SALRY I PAY refused to conduct himself accordingly. As I said, I remember a time when people cared about their neighbor, and when this was part of what made us such a great nation. Now the mentality is "I don't have to do anything", and "my name is Jimmy and I'll take all you give me". If someone is so callus as too look at a dying 2 y/o child and not the common decency to at least make an attempt to salvage a life, they have no business wearing a public service uniform. They say would it have made a difference...I guess as a police officer he is somehow psychic as well right?

As I said, police officers are supposed to do more than enforce laws; they are here to protect the public good.

The reason why we have ethics and civic responsibility is to ensure the "life and liberty" of everyone else, including our children and our neighbors. When I was in the service we were told of an offense called "Conduct Unbecoming of a United States Marine", and I can't help but think this is not only conduct unbecoming of a LEO, but of a human being. Moreover I called a friend of mine who is a LEO and he thought I was joking. He was even appalled at the story.

Maybe I am being overly harsh, but you know what I am so tired of people making excuses for PD officers. They get away with a lot, and now they can breech the very fabric of being human and this is considered okay? When did we become so immersed in selfishness that now not even children are immune?

We all have our opinion, and I have stated mine. I am not going to persuade anyone who disagrees with me, and the truth is this is extremely upsetting to me, so I am done on this discussion. I respect the opinion of others, and perhaps I am out of place. All I know is as a father of a two y/o myself it hit a nerve, and in my time I have never seen such an anger inspiring subject.

We all have our views, and due to my level of anger I will leave this well enough alone.

What happaned to compassion.

 

[NJFLGHTMDC]

not sure

I am on the fence there are just as many reasons supporting his actions, and against him

 

[kittaypie]

". If someone is so callus as too look at a dying 2 y/o child and not the common decency to at least make an attempt to salvage a life, they have no business wearing a public service uniform. .

he did make an attempt, he made sure CPR was being done effectively and he coached them on their technique. I'm not saying he's a hero for not doing CPR himself, but he did the best he probably couldve done in the moment.

 

[redcrossemt]

What happaned to compassion.

Compassion isn't always expressed in the same way.

If someone's house is on fire, do you expect me to run into it to check for people because I don a paramedic patch three days a week? Should I make an attempt to get the garden hose? Would you want me to attempt to stop someone with a gun? All of these things seem like the compassionate thing to do. Or, I could be cold hearted and just wait safely outside in my ambulance and request the correct resources for the job.

CPR is not common sense. It's a heroic act which we do not expect from most. There are risks involved.

You don't think it's common sense for me to run into a burning building because it would be unsafe - the risks would be too high. Same with effecting an arrest, or stopping a crazed gunman. But look at the risks of CPR! I'd rather be shot dead or die under a burning roof than die slowly from Hepatitis I acquired during CPR done.

The officer tried to coach the people who were doing CPR. Who's to say that the officer doing CPR himself would have been any better? Maybe the scene was frantic and he felt threatened and didn't want to loose his overall picture of what was going on... We just don't know without being there.

 

[18G]

Jeffrey_169... perfect, perfect sense.

If your a police officer and are gonna stop at a scene that is medical in nature.. than be prepared to help... not just be another bystander in a uniform!. Especially when involving a child!

Where is ppls logic???

 

[Jeffrey_169]

Compassion isn't always expressed in the same way.

If someone's house is on fire, do you expect me to run into it to check for people because I don a paramedic patch three days a week? Should I make an attempt to get the garden hose? Would you want me to attempt to stop someone with a gun? All of these things seem like the compassionate thing to do. Or, I could be cold hearted and just wait safely outside in my ambulance and request the correct resources for the job.

CPR is not common sense. It's a heroic act which we do not expect from most. There are risks involved.

You don't think it's common sense for me to run into a burning building because it would be unsafe - the risks would be too high. Same with effecting an arrest, or stopping a crazed gunman. But look at the risks of CPR! I'd rather be shot dead or die under a burning roof than die slowly from Hepatitis I acquired during CPR done.

The officer tried to coach the people who were doing CPR. Who's to say that the officer doing CPR himself would have been any better? Maybe the scene was frantic and he felt threatened and didn't want to loose his overall picture of what was going on... We just don't know without being there.

If a person who works in public safety isn't prepared to take risks perhaps a different line of work should be considered. When a police officer dons his/ her uniform they know they are taking a risk. If you can't stand the heat, get the h-e-double hockey sticks out of the kitchen.

Further more the risks associated with contracting a disease from a patient by performing CPR is about 1%; if I (putting myself in the officer's shoes) fail to act in a responsible and dutiful manner, I have a 100% chance of not being able to sleep for some time...I like the 1% a little better.

As too me not being there; what can justify doing nothing but instead allowing an already frantic mother continue what was no doubt ineffective CPR? What can be the excuse? Do you have children? Any of you? I do, and there have been 2 occasions where they were sick, and I got to tell you its the same as any other patient. There is a degree of personal involvement which is all to ready to cloud your judgment and experience. He may have not been as trained as an EMT, but at least he can be more objective and effective.

As too you stopping someone with a gun, lets compare. Are you trained to? I am, so yes, I would; if your not, then no I wouldn't. As too the fire, can you do it safely? probably not so no. There is no doubt the officer is trained in CPR, so yes he should have done his job. Trying to teach a frantic relative how to perform CPR in the heat of the moment is like trying to talk a cow how to untangle its head from a barbed wire fence; don't be surprised when you are cutting a dead cow from your fence.

 

[Cory]

Can someone please just explain to me why police officers are exempt from negligence charges but no one else is?

And also, if you are honestly going to argue that the officer didn't want to endanger himslef; cops are ready to take a bullet and put them selves in the line of fire for citizens, but they aren't willing to get down and give CPR to a two year old boy? This still just blows my mind. And the other justification is that he coached the untrained, frantic, paniced, and overwhelmingly emotionally attatched bystanders(friends,family) into doing CPR for him, all because of this "better you than me" concept? Now I realize it takes a miracle to change someone's opinion around here, especially when the majority of users here decided my input was meaningless long ago, but I just cannot understand the arguments for the officer. You may say that morals don't apply, but I think a true officer should use morality and professionality at the same time.

 

[akflightmedic]

Exactly!

Glad to see that I am not alone in thinking about this logically and not losing sight of the bigger picture. I think too many are presenting an emotional aspect which is well and good in certain situations but maybe not this one...we simply do not know.

 

[redcrossemt]

And the other justification is that he coached the untrained, frantic, paniced, and overwhelmingly emotionally attatched bystanders(friends,family) into doing CPR for him, all because of this "better you than me" concept?

He coached the child's mother, who was already doing CPR, in how to do it more effectively/correctly.... How is that "better you than me" logic?? Maybe he was managing the scene as a whole, maybe this, maybe that...

The bottom line is that we just don't know.

 

[akflightmedic]

Have posts been deleted? Where is the post I commented under? Now my post looks totally out of line, might as well delete it too.

 

[VentMedic]

And the other justification is that he coached the untrained, frantic, paniced, and overwhelmingly emotionally attatched bystanders(friends,family) into doing CPR for him, all because of this "better you than me" concept? Now I realize it takes a miracle to change someone's opinion around here, especially when the majority of users here decided my input was meaningless long ago, but I just cannot understand the arguments for the officer. You may say that morals don't apply, but I think a true officer should use morality and professionality at the same time.

If there is a family member is willing to do CPR, I would do the same thing this LEO did and I HAVE done that on many occasions. There is nothing wrong with coaching a family member to continue with CPR while you set up your equipment especially when we used to run only 2 Paramedics and not 8 to a scene.

Any incident involving a child can be highly emotional and the need for scene control is high on the priority list as well because you don't want more victims or patients. Parents and other family members start blaming each other and before you know it a scene can escalate out of control.
For an LEO to divert his/her attention from this situation and just focus on the child with his back to something that can escalate quickly is very irresponsible. If he had done that he should face a severe reprimand from his department.

If an LEO allows his own emotions to cloud his responsibilites more people can be injured or killed. We can now see how a highly charged emotional situation got LEOs killed in Oakland, CA. Should have, could have and would have won't bring back the dead.

Yes, this was a child but CPR was being done. If he had not done CPR on a child before this his performance at it may not have been any better than the family's. CPR was being performed. If this had been a old person this wouldn't even be a discussion as most here would agree with what the LEO did. But, regardless of the patient's age, the same rules for safety should be applied and that includes the responsibilities of the LEO as well as personal protection.

 

[ffemt8978]

Have posts been deleted? Where is the post I commented under? Now my post looks totally out of line, might as well delete it too.

No, no posts have been deleted.

 

[redcrossemt]

If this had been a old person this wouldn't even be a discussion as most here would agree with what the LEO did. But, regardless of the patient's age, the same rules for safety should be applied and that includes the responsibilities of the LEO as well as personal protection.

I was thinking about asking if this had been different if this were, let's say, a terminal patient with no DNR... or just an elderly person in general.

 

[18G]

Trying to teach a frantic relative how to perform CPR in the heat of the moment is like trying to talk a cow how to untangle its head from a barbed wire fence; don't be surprised when you are cutting a dead cow from your fence.

lol... great analogy. so very true.

 

[18G]

If there is a family member is willing to do CPR, I would do the same thing this LEO did and I HAVE done that on many occasions. There is nothing wrong with coaching a family member to continue with CPR while you set up your equipment especially when we used to run only 2 Paramedics and not 8 to a scene.

EMS providers are trained and experienced to be efficient with a 2 provider team. A family member is in no shape to be performing CPR or any other life saving intervention when professional help is on the scene.

CPR as we all know, goes way beyond the physical act of pushing on the chest and blowing air into the lungs. Im sure family doesnt know the science behind it or is even thinking about performance. All they are thinking about is there loved one waking up.

We bring experience and efficiency which is why we need to be handling care in high priority situations from the start. On stuff like fractures or lacerations, or what not, yeah family involvement is perfectly okay. Bt not when family is facing death of their loved one in front of their eyes.

 

[redcrossemt]

EMS providers are trained and experienced to be efficient with a 2 provider team. A family member is in no shape to be performing CPR or any other life saving intervention when professional help is on the scene.

CPR as we all know, goes way beyond the physical act of pushing on the chest and blowing air into the lungs. Im sure family doesnt know the science behind it or is even thinking about performance. All they are thinking about is there loved one waking up.

We bring experience and efficiency which is why we need to be handling care in high priority situations from the start. On stuff like fractures or lacerations, or what not, yeah family involvement is perfectly okay. Bt not when family is facing death of their loved one in front of their eyes.

The officer was by himself with bystanders until the paramedics arrived. Do you think the police officer knows the science behind CPR? Do you think he has experience in CPR? Do you think he'd be efficient at it?

It'd be different if he was a trained EMS provider, dual-role PSO, whatever. But, as it stands, he has no real extra training (layperson CPR who knows how long ago) and no real experience, knowledge, or backup to help him with a cardiac arrest situation in a frantic scene.