IS there any money in EMS outside of fire?

[beandip4all]

That's good in theory, but who's raising your kids? The cost of child care can largely negate the additional salary. It's not worth it for the second parent to work FT, with shuffling the kids around, for maybe $10/hr or so after child care costs.

There's always the option of having sig other be the primary breadwinner/chief earner. Who says it has to be YOU? With our shifts (1 24, 1 36) it would be easy to swing some sort of arrangement where you are the mainly stay at home parent. I know people I work with do this.

I just... I don't know. Sometimes I think some people in EMS (and I'm not trying to insinuate it's you...just a lot of people I've encountered, both on here and IRL) just feel so ENTITLED. "Yes! Let me work a 'cool' and 'fun' job that 10,000 other people would work for free (volunteer) or would do for less than me, but no no no, I DESERVE a high wage, I deserve lots of overtime, I deserve a great pension."

You people want to make lots of $$$? Want to send your kids to college and summer camp and sports clubs and have a boat and fancy toys? Pursue a different stable and high-paying career. Go be an investment banker, or a tax attorney, an insurance salesman, or an accountant. Work some soul-crushing 9-5 that isn't inspiring, doesn't help people, but pays the bills and lets you lead a comfortable lifestyle.

You want to save lives, do an unconventional, glamorous job? Then get in line, and be willing to do it for less.

Life's all about choices, and you need to figure out what you're willing to sacrifice for, and where you can cut corners.

 

[sono]

The one thing that confuses me about discussions on pay is when someone has to mention volunteers. Yes they will do it for free but I am willing to bet that the the reason they can volunteer is because they have income coming in from somewhere else.

 

[Shishkabob]

Police have volunteers, yet they still make a livable wage.

Fire has volunteers, yet career ffs make livable wages.



Why is EMS the exception? Our job IS dangerous. Our job IS one that, relatively speaking, not many people can do, and does, generally, require some brainpower to do well. We have the right to demand good pay/benefits/pension.



Granted, no one gets in to EMS expecting to make 6 figures... but we shouldn't be making less than 35, either.

 

[Aprz]

Same for programming. Programmers make pretty good money, and yet people do it for free, which GNU and the Linux community clearly demonstrates.

 

[ohnoyoudidnt]

Why is EMS the exception? Our job IS dangerous. Our job IS one that, relatively speaking, not many people can do, and does, generally, require some brainpower to do well. We have the right to demand good pay/benefits/pension.

Our slogan here is CPR.

Cant Pay Rent

 

[46Young]

There's always the option of having sig other be the primary breadwinner/chief earner. Who says it has to be YOU? With our shifts (1 24, 1 36) it would be easy to swing some sort of arrangement where you are the mainly stay at home parent. I know people I work with do this.

I just... I don't know. Sometimes I think some people in EMS (and I'm not trying to insinuate it's you...just a lot of people I've encountered, both on here and IRL) just feel so ENTITLED. "Yes! Let me work a 'cool' and 'fun' job that 10,000 other people would work for free (volunteer) or would do for less than me, but no no no, I DESERVE a high wage, I deserve lots of overtime, I deserve a great pension."

You people want to make lots of $$$? Want to send your kids to college and summer camp and sports clubs and have a boat and fancy toys? Pursue a different stable and high-paying career. Go be an investment banker, or a tax attorney, an insurance salesman, or an accountant. Work some soul-crushing 9-5 that isn't inspiring, doesn't help people, but pays the bills and lets you lead a comfortable lifestyle.

You want to save lives, do an unconventional, glamorous job? Then get in line, and be willing to do it for less.

Life's all about choices, and you need to figure out what you're willing to sacrifice for, and where you can cut corners.

Soul crushing, I like that. A few times my wife has complained about my work schedule, being away nights and weekends and such. I would remind her that I'd rather eat a bullet than work in an office in the typical business setting. Soul crushing is an apt description.

When I first started out, I was resigned to the fact that I could live okay on an EMS salary. Not be able to save for a house, or be able to save much for retirement, but be able to pay the bills and have a little extra left over. As I got a few years in, I realized that I wanted to do better than just "okay," even though I was already doing better than the average person. I was going to go the nursing route for the $$$'s and career development, but the fire based opportunity became available. It pays on par with those soul crushing office jobs, but I would have eventually left EMS, or at least dropped to per diem, if the fire based thing never happened.

 

[46Young]

The one thing that confuses me about discussions on pay is when someone has to mention volunteers. Yes they will do it for free but I am willing to bet that the the reason they can volunteer is because they have income coming in from somewhere else.

Or, in some areas, it's required to volunteer for a certain amount of time before you can apply for a paid position. It's a clever way to get free labor, you use a bunch of young adults for next to nothing, dangling that employment carrot in front of them. Some also believe that volunteering is good for a resume, so they do it for a year or two, basically until they get a paid job.

 

[46Young]

Police have volunteers, yet they still make a livable wage.

Fire has volunteers, yet career ffs make livable wages.



Why is EMS the exception? Our job IS dangerous. Our job IS one that, relatively speaking, not many people can do, and does, generally, require some brainpower to do well. We have the right to demand good pay/benefits/pension.



Granted, no one gets in to EMS expecting to make 6 figures... but we shouldn't be making less than 35, either.

I'll agree with others that there is too much supply for too few jobs in EMS. Where we go wrong, however, is that most employers pay too little, and hire anyone with a pulse. This leads to many jumping from employer to employer, and also others leaving the field for other professions.

What should happen instead, is for employers to compensate better, and tighten up on entry requirements, not just hire every mutant with a valid card. Keep turnover down. If less EMS jobs are available, then an EMT or paramedic class won't appeal to most people. They'll look somewhere else for the easy in. A job as a security guard is easy to get, and requires an 8 hour class, and another 16 hours an a couple of months. At least that's what it was when I used to bounce. My county hires school bus drivers off the street with no CDL, trains them, and pays almost $17/hr. There's two quick ways to make money right there. One takes no skills or brain power, the other gives you OJT.

 

[firetender]

Entitlement

a lot of people I've encountered, both on here and IRL) just feel so ENTITLED.

Want to send your kids to college and summer camp and sports clubs and have a boat and fancy toys?

You want to save lives, do an unconventional, glamorous job? Then get in line, and be willing to do it for less.

That's a good angle to explore because it's a two way street.

As a starting place isn't it fair to say that in a civilized society, the citizenry should be entitled to the protection of life, limb and property proportionate to the society's success?

We have already established, in the U.S. anyway, that Fire and Police protection are worth paying for -- either through taxes or subscription. It has been already covered that these are stressful jobs, sometimes life-threatening, and those who provide the service are worthy of our support.

What's wrong with this picture?

Is there any way that services provided in EMS are any LESS valuable than those provided by Police and Fire? Are the providers themselves any LESS under fire?

If you're going to be altruistic, then be fair about it. Such services as Fire, Police and EMS are ALL Sacred Trusts that should be provided for free by the society that profits so much by our participation in it. And the people who provide the services should be well-taken care of. Period.

 

[Veneficus]

I'll agree with others that there is too much supply for too few jobs in EMS. Where we go wrong, however, is that most employers pay too little, and hire anyone with a pulse. This leads to many jumping from employer to employer, and also others leaving the field for other professions.

What should happen instead, is for employers to compensate better, and tighten up on entry requirements, not just hire every mutant with a valid card. Keep turnover down. If less EMS jobs are available, then an EMT or paramedic class won't appeal to most people. They'll look somewhere else for the easy in. A job as a security guard is easy to get, and requires an 8 hour class, and another 16 hours an a couple of months. At least that's what it was when I used to bounce. My county hires school bus drivers off the street with no CDL, trains them, and pays almost $17/hr. There's two quick ways to make money right there. One takes no skills or brain power, the other gives you OJT.

I wish this were true, but around here, they have to set the limits on fire applications at the first 2000 when they are just creating lists and not expecting to hire or hiring 1 or 2 guys in 2 years.

Literally hundreds of students a semester go to EMS schools in the area and pay thousands to give themselves a better "chance," only to be number 1000 on the list because somebody got bonus percentage points on a mindless Civ service exam for living in the city or being exmilitary.

Not to begrudge a service member, but does a guy who is a firefighter or police officer for 10 years serve the country less than a soldier for 4?

As long as the hope is alive people will pay what it takes to "look better" when no jobs exist or what they are doing has no impact.

 

[dudemanguy]

EMS is an underpaid profession no doubt, but the fact is its a job many people like to do and some even do it for free.

Employers generally pay what is necessary to attract and retain people, and no more.

I work as a CNA at a long term care medical facility, and the turnover rate is really high. There is simply a workload and stress load that most people wont accept, and a million different ways to get fired. CNAs there are paid a fair amount more than emt-basics, nearly 14 an hour starting out, but they cannot retain people to save their life. We cant even get people to make it through orientation.

I also work on call as a CNA in a hospital med surge unit and that job is a breeze by comparison, but the pay sucks, I do it mainly for the experience, not to pay the bills. You generally get paid well either because you posess skills or education that is in demand, or because you have a job that people dont want to do. EMS is simply an attractive job to many people that doesnt require a huge amount of education or training, hence the pay sucks.

 

[ShesanEMT]

Not an Ivy Leauge Job

I agree. My husband is the bread winner, we've cut costs b/c we chose for me to stay home with our kids while they were small rather than pay up the crack for childcare.This is our choice, not saying it would work for everybody. Now, i'm ready to go back to work and am very willing to volunteer and/or work part-time and gain experieince before jumping into a grueling work schedule. The 24-hour days would work for me b/c my husband would be home with the kids during that time; but yes, some people expect the many perks that careers/jobs with years of education provide and that's not a fair comparison.
I chose EMS b/c I have an affinity for human beings; I want to serve in a way that goes beyond the quest for more money or recognition...sure getting paid is nice, but "how much" it not my first concern.

 

[DrParasite]

Police have volunteers, yet they still make a livable wage.

yep

Fire has volunteers, yet career ffs make livable wages.

yep

Why is EMS the exception? Our job IS dangerous. Our job IS one that, relatively speaking, not many people can do, and does, generally, require some brainpower to do well. We have the right to demand good pay/benefits/pension.

here is the problem with your line of thinking: we ACCEPT poor pay. They (management, bosses, city hall, the bean counters, whatever the purseholders are called) are offering us $9 an hour and we ARE TAKING IT.

FD and PD both have unions. They DO NOT ACCEPT $9 AN HOUR. None of their firefighters will accept $9 an hour. Not only that, but the majority of FD and PD's are municipal, so you can't outsource the service to a crappy for-profit company who is only looking to make a profit. So they are in a pretty good bargaining position. Not only that, but the vast majority of PD and FD's (that are paid anyway) are tax based, so in addition to any revenue they can generate, they have millions in tax dollars to help balance their budgets.

EMS, on the other hand, tends not to be municipal based and funded, and are often not unionized. They are often outsourced to for profit companies, or volunteers, or hospitals, so you don't have that tax subsidy balancing out the books. Plus you get (newbies) people who are willing to accept $9 an hour, regardless of skills, abilities or anything, and as long as the paperwork gets filled out and the company can bills, management doesn't care if they have a brain or not.

Both have more supply than demand (many FD's and PD's require 0 experience or training to get hired, they will train you once you get the job, so you get a large number of applicants for every individual position), but with the other two, you have a municipal funding and the lack of willingness to accept a poor salary.

Granted, no one gets in to EMS expecting to make 6 figures... but we shouldn't be making less than 35, either.

yep

 

[NorCal]

we ACCEPT poor pay. $9 an hour and we ARE TAKING IT.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't AMR resently become a Union shop?

It sounds like to me that a good majority of folks in EMS are working in the field but don't plan to remain in EMS. They need the experience in order to move into a paid fire position. So long as you have folks who there for the short term, you lack a long term plan such as union organizing, better wages, higher standards during the hiring process, wages, and retirement.

If what I heard about AMR is true, I would hope to see more private companies move in this direction to make it better for everyone in EMS. Fire & LEO have strong unions and personnel; but their real advantage is that nobody in those career fields are just "passing through" so everyone has their sights set on the long term goals of their organization.

 

[Shishkabob]

Maybe out your way in Cali, but here in DFW, no union.

 

[Aprz]

From what I have heard, Alco (Alameda County in California) AMR has a union.

 

[beandip4all]

AFAIK, all AMR in norcal is unionized. sf, marin co, san mateo co, santa clara co... etc...

 

[LonghornMedic]

There are good paying EMS jobs. You just have to look and do some research. First off, private ambulance will always underpay you. Try and find a 3rd service agency. Here in Austin, Austin-Travis County EMS and Williamson County EMS both offer starting pay in the $50,000 range, good equipment and good benefits.