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My eyes are still watery
Sorry to hear that.
It's like a Sour Patch commercial... First I'm sour, then I'm sweet!
h34r: 
In case you haven't figured it out....
- Thread starter armywifeemt
- Start date
Sorry to hear that.
It's like a Sour Patch commercial... First I'm sour, then I'm sweet!
h34r: 
MochaRaf
Forum Crew Member
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Sorry to hear that.
It's like a Sour Patch commercial... First I'm sour, then I'm sweet!
So are we to refer to you as Sweet&Sour from now on? Or S&S [S/S] in short?
Hmm, that acronym sounds familiar... I know I used it sometimes, but what did the darn thing stand for again?
Space shuttle perhaps? yeah that must be it, cause nothing else comes to mind...
MedicBender
Forum Captain
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This makes a huge difference. Most of our dispatchers have no experience in the field. You can tell the one dispatcher who does because he understands that I can't clear the ER 5 minutes after arriving. The rest are pissed when I'm not clear and good to go. I always offer to let them tag a long for a few hours of my shift, so they can see the other side. No one has taken me up on my offer yet.
I feel there should be a minimum requirement of at least a year field experience. Or have them do rotations with medic units. It might help ease the tension a bit when both crews know a bit about what the other is doing.
armywifeemt
Forum Lieutenant
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You know... if my company would pay me to go to Michigan and learn what a day in the life of a dispatcher was like, I'd gladly do it.. I'm all for seeing both sides. Of course, to make it fair, the dispatchers would have to come live my day just once. And we would have to see to it that it is literally one of those days that the second we get cleared from one run, we get another... all day long.. preferably at least a 16 hour shift by the time we are done because we get held over after we're supposed to be off... And they'd have to help us lift and move all the patients, and we'd make them do half the paperwork (for an authentic experience). Oh, and we'd have to make sure that, just for sheer realism, we had at least one if not two "canceled" runs that were an hour drive from our typical service area each way. Oh... and they have to drive on the highways in our service area where every other exit is blocked off by construction and the exits you can get off on are congested with :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: drivers who will intentionally see to it that we cannot get over in time to make our exit, thus wind up delayed five minutes on a run we were already given too little time to respond to...
Of course, I'm feeling a little crabby today because we were posted for four hours (which is fine great fun fantastic) and the first call dispatched after we were posted was dispatched three minutes before our scheduled arrival time, to a location 15-20 minutes away. FYI, dispatch, 3.5 miles across town, with traffic lights, in a 35-45 mph speed limit area (not on the highway) around 3:30 PM takes more than five minutes. Just sayin.
Did I mention this is a regular run that we are scheduled for (as a company, not as a crew) three times a week, reliably, for at least the last two months......... Oy vey.
Of course, I'm feeling a little crabby today because we were posted for four hours (which is fine great fun fantastic) and the first call dispatched after we were posted was dispatched three minutes before our scheduled arrival time, to a location 15-20 minutes away. FYI, dispatch, 3.5 miles across town, with traffic lights, in a 35-45 mph speed limit area (not on the highway) around 3:30 PM takes more than five minutes. Just sayin.
Did I mention this is a regular run that we are scheduled for (as a company, not as a crew) three times a week, reliably, for at least the last two months......... Oy vey.
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Sometimes I think I'm doing EMS all wrong because I actually enjoy hanging out with a lot of my dispatchers more than some of the field crews.
How large of a system are you in? Do you use a CAD system?
I have no complaints with my dispatchers! They manage upwards of 20 ambulances, give pre arrival instructions for many of our suburbs, and are the medical controllers for my area (controlling traffic into 12+ hospitals from 6 EMS agencies).
Dispatch doesn't control when and where the calls come in. You are getting paid to work. If there are areas you see need improvement talk to management.
I have no complaints with my dispatchers! They manage upwards of 20 ambulances, give pre arrival instructions for many of our suburbs, and are the medical controllers for my area (controlling traffic into 12+ hospitals from 6 EMS agencies).
Dispatch doesn't control when and where the calls come in. You are getting paid to work. If there are areas you see need improvement talk to management.
While that is true, there is more to maintaining the abilty and usefulness of a crew.
A tired, hungry, have to use the restroom, crew can be a danger not only to a patient but themselves.
There are documented effects of being in a confined space and/or operating without proper "rehab" between calls.
Most management are too stupid to figure this out though. It is much cheaper to pay for an extra crew or unit than it is to pay for a MVA or medical error. It costs even more when a disabled crew member sues you, win or lose.
This idea of EMS having to meet every call in minutes is just not realistic or helpful. Both in 911 and IFT.
Crew readiness and fatigue is just as much a part of resourse management as what unit is available/closest.
Exactly.
My company, and I am sure most others, track our productivity. The magic number is like 0.35 to 0.4 or 35%-40% of the time I am on a call. For a while my company was in the 0.52/0.53 range and when each crews are doing 1200 or 1300 pts in a year that is a lot of work.
The reason I asked about CAD is because you can use the system to track units and base coverage off of it. We also use the Mum system which technically is a fire based system. But it shows where holes in our coverage are and makes recommendations on when/where to move a unit.
With GIS nowadays there is zero excuse to not have your area analyzed to figure out how to meet your contracted response times.
Just like in the food service business with point of sales tracking- there is no reason it shouldn't be done for calls.
I am curious if those numbers actually represent the total work being done. (driving between postings, etc)
35-40% UHU with a rested crew in quarters is far different from a crew confined to a truck.
Not sure I agree with this.
Frstly for the reason that response times don't play a major part in patient outcome, and secondly, a longer response time to an area requiring less responses seems like a reasonable trade in order to preserve crew effectiveness without adding extra crews.
The whole idea of dynamic staging, system status management, or whatever it is being called these days has some very concerning flaws.
As an interesting point, how many hours a day are commercial truck drivers permitted to drive?
Do their duties include patient care?
Do you think being confined to a truck has a minimal impact on fatigue? Because I have some documents that make a convincing case to the contrary. (in fairness they were describing the effects on armor crews and armored infantry, but it could easily be applied to anybody from construction to the fire service)
Do you think it is equally restful to sleep on the chairs in the airport terminal or in a hotel?
Why would anyone think it would be equally restful to station somebody in a parking lot and think it was not the same?
I am curious if those numbers actually represent the total work being done. (driving between postings, etc)
35-40% UHU with a rested crew in quarters is far different from a crew confined to a truck.
True, I believe it is just work associated with being on a call, and not movement within the system. I might be wrong though.
Not sure I agree with this.
Frstly for the reason that response times don't play a major part in patient outcome, and secondly, a longer response time to an area requiring less responses seems like a reasonable trade in order to preserve crew effectiveness without adding extra crews.
The whole idea of dynamic staging, system status management, or whatever it is being called these days has some very concerning flaws.
I suppose it just depends on your system, what your response goals are, and if you do in fact utilize SSM.
As an interesting point, how many hours a day are commercial truck drivers permitted to drive?
Do their duties include patient care?
Do you think being confined to a truck has a minimal impact on fatigue? Because I have some documents that make a convincing case to the contrary. (in fairness they were describing the effects on armor crews and armored infantry, but it could easily be applied to anybody from construction to the fire service)
Do you think it is equally restful to sleep on the chairs in the airport terminal or in a hotel?
Depends, will I have a longer time to rest if I stay in the airport versus try to get to a hotel and back through security in time for the flight.
Why would anyone think it would be equally restful to station somebody in a parking lot and think it was not the same?
It depends on how long your shifts are. Sitting in a parking lot for 8 to 10 hours, possibly up to 12 shouldn't be a problem. That is no different than working a line shift and having to stand for 10 hours. Heck go to the back of the truck and lay on the cot if you find it uncomfortable.
This whole debate is very service dependent. I was saying it would behoove a system to utilize GIS if they were not already. Obviously if you are in a small system, it has less of a benefit, but for people with hundreds of square miles in their service area and complain about being hassled to meet response times (which do matter from a financial standpoint as contracts are based on those times) why not look at where the majority of your calls are coming from and have trucks near buy. Maybe your system is not SSM, but for a few hours a day, you move one truck to a corner of your PSA because everyday at rushhour you get a few calls there.
I am in a big system, 60k calls a year, so having our SSM and staffing figured out makes lots of sense financially.
I would be interested to see those papers. I feel there is a difference between the armed forces and civilian life but I might be wrong.
All I know is 12 hours and 12 transports is much easier that 12 hours of hard labor.
There is a slight difference between performing a repetative task and multiple tasks requiring critical thinking and subtle observation.
You mean to say that so far you haven't experienced a loss from it yet.
In my experience and observations in multiple systems, SSM is just a ticking time bomb.
Of course a flag, wreath, and plaque with the names of a few lost crewmembers are rather cheap compared to negotiating realistic response contracts.
Constantly trying to shift around units to provide coverage without additional units is really saying you cannot effectively meet your coverage without an increased level of risk or crew pressure.
Pm me your email and I will send the PDFs in the morning.
While I agree there is adifference between the military and civilian life. I find it interesting that EMS is quick to try to embrace the techniques and technology, but not as quick to embrace the practices of personal readiness and effectiveness.
Perhaps, but there are arguably fewer things that can go wrong during that hard labor that affects people outside of the individual laborer.
armywifeemt
Forum Lieutenant
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The challenge of this job is that there are periods of hard labor (moving around 200+lb people is what I would consider hard labor) followed by periods of critical thinking... you wind up both physically and mentally exhausted, and I think there is more inherent danger in that than one or the other.
Furthermore, I don't think much consideration is being given to the difficulty of driving around in a vehicle that seems to get caught like a sail in the wind... driving an emergency vehicle is stressful in and of itself if you are really paying attention to what you are doing.
We leave our station at around 0820 and don't head back til 1915 or so.. we are frequently on calls with minimal time spent posting... even when we do not have runs we are frequently shifted around to provide coverage. It is very fatiguing... by the end of a 12 hour shift both I and my partner are totally exhausted.
Furthermore, I don't think much consideration is being given to the difficulty of driving around in a vehicle that seems to get caught like a sail in the wind... driving an emergency vehicle is stressful in and of itself if you are really paying attention to what you are doing.
We leave our station at around 0820 and don't head back til 1915 or so.. we are frequently on calls with minimal time spent posting... even when we do not have runs we are frequently shifted around to provide coverage. It is very fatiguing... by the end of a 12 hour shift both I and my partner are totally exhausted.
You have discovered why SSM only works on paper
MiddleEastMedic101
Forum Probie
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Our Medics would usually take turns dispatching and running calls. We had our 911 (101) where I worked, dispatch, and station all in the same building.
We had one medic that could make "Ambulance 37, Transfer at (insert name of old age home) Code 2" sound like phone sex.
We had one medic that could make "Ambulance 37, Transfer at (insert name of old age home) Code 2" sound like phone sex.
My partner and I took turns dispatching one night after the medic took the dispatcher to the hospital. One of us would take the call and dispatch it, the other one would go out to the truck with the medic asleep and do the run. Next run, we would switch.
it took the medic 2 days to figure it out.
I said for years that to be a full time dispatcher you had to give up 50 IQ points. I was only a PT dispatcher so I only had to give up 25 points: just ask Epi-do or Katgrrl2003
it took the medic 2 days to figure it out.
I said for years that to be a full time dispatcher you had to give up 50 IQ points. I was only a PT dispatcher so I only had to give up 25 points: just ask Epi-do or Katgrrl2003
Or maybe.... they don't have the staffing levels to not run their medics into the ground.
I appreciated the PM by the way.
Frozennoodle
Sir Drinks-a-lot
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I dispatched 911 for two years before becoming a medic. My life is much better and far less stressful. You really do need to get into a comm center and see what it's like. I handled 911 call taking and police dispatch and handed off fire and ems calls to fire and ems. Police dispatching is a different animal, car chases, robberies, domestic violence, all kinds of crazy crap.
I dispatch on the side at my current service. It's not as hard but it's not something I want to do. I know a ton of medics who complain about dispatch day in and day out but I don't know a single one of them who actually want that job.
Frozennoodle
Sir Drinks-a-lot
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And that has nothing to do with dispatch and everything to do with operations. You can only do so much with what you have. Also, while dispatch doesn't manually lift or move patients or work in the heat they are making the same sacrifices you are when it comes to bathrooms, eating, breaks. My 911 days saw about 60,000 calls for service a year. I don't know how many actual phone calls we got but it was probably 5:1 ratio. Typically we had 3 people for 2 radio channels and the phones. If there was a persuit or an officer down or in a fight then one dispatcher was instantly out the picture. 2 people to handle two radio channels and phones for about a 1,000 phone calls a day or 41 calls an hour which equals a little less than a call a minute. That's stressful enough plus you have to run FBI and warrant database checks between them, enter in reports for stolen goods, warrants, etc into the national databases, coordinate with other agencies, and keep track of 15 units without killing them. Then I get to hear them complain about how they had to go into x's slot to cover a call and they already have 3 reports and blah blah blah. Well I haven't used the bathroom since I got on, I don't get breaks, I don't get a lunch, and I don't get to drive around and have the opportunity to do half the things you can sneak by with on the street.
We're a team and as a street medic I'll defend my dispatchers til I retire or die.
If you consider my very first post on this subject, I think you will find that I said many similar things, but not the specifics of it.
I think you are right, it is absolutely an operations issue. Unfortunately, the breakdown in operations often manifests between the field and dispatch.
As was recently pointed out in Haiti, instant keystrokes and telecommunications does not translate to what is happening or even possible on the ground.
However, whether it is an overworked dispatcher or a field crewmember, at some point there is going to be a breakdown and a critical mistake is going to be made.
I'd like to think i knew something about turning nothing into gold, but at some point of having so little, somebody has to step in and say "we cannot do anymore or keep this pace."
I recognize that it all costs money and that money doesn't fall from the sky like rain, but at some point, a dispatcher is not going to be able to do 20+ things at once, and and people aren't going to get an ambulance every 9 minutes.
Having said that though, I still think it is better to do a handful of things well than do a bad job at a lot of things. If the public doesn't like it, they can fork over the cash to fix.
cusadiz
Forum Probie
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You've just renamed my fire department ... Redneck Chop & Squirt Club. Thanks!