Hypoglycemic scenerio question

[dalmain]

This maybe a silly questions for you Paramedics out there. Maybe I missed something in school but when you have a hypoglycemic patient BS: 29 unresponsive. You have I.V. access and begin to push D50 slowly. About halfway thru the D50 you see the patient responding, eyes are opening and the patient is moving....would you at this point check the BS or continue and push the rest of the D50 and than check the BS? Halfway the BS is 249. A big spike. Would you stop there or just finish pushing the rest of the D50? A 500 cc NS is open after D50 IVP.
It was my partners decision to stop mid way and check the BS. He didn't want to give anymore D50 once he got the 249 BS. If I were the one administrating the drug I would probably have pushed the whole D50. The way I learned in school and I read in the protocols. If a patient shows improvement during drug administration should you just stop at that point? Just wondering.

 

[chaz90]

I would absolutely stop and routinely do midway through Dextrose administration. I often use a 100 mL NS bag to dilute my Dextrose, and I'll stop as soon as the patient is conscious enough to eat something. I leave the IV in until I clear the call in case I give more. A full 25G of IV Dextrose is incredibly harsh for a diabetic and can throw their A1C and BGLs off for a long time. The more gentle you are waking them, the better it is for the patient.

 

[Tigger]

This maybe a silly questions for you Paramedics out there. Maybe I missed something in school but when you have a hypoglycemic patient BS: 29 unresponsive. You have I.V. access and begin to push D50 slowly. About halfway thru the D50 you see the patient responding, eyes are opening and the patient is moving....would you at this point check the BS or continue and push the rest of the D50 and than check the BS? Halfway the BS is 249. A big spike. Would you stop there or just finish pushing the rest of the D50? A 500 cc NS is open after D50 IVP.
It was my partners decision to stop mid way and check the BS. He didn't want to give anymore D50 once he got the 249 BS. If I were the one administrating the drug I would probably have pushed the whole D50. The way I learned in school and I read in the protocols. If a patient shows improvement during drug administration should you just stop at that point? Just wondering.

I'd bet that your protocol also says something about using good clinical judgement too. It doesn't make sense to just keep blindly giving a medication in the face of obvious improvement, what will giving more dextrose to a patient with a BGL of 249 do to help the patient?

 

[NomadicMedic]

Yeah. It's like Narcan. Titrate to effect.

 

[Angel]

if this were my call/my pt I don't normally check blood sugar until a couple mins after giving it (the entire 25gm). Ive yet to have a pt come alert whilst pushing d50 (granted ive only been doing this for 5 minutes).

I guess if this DID happen then the dextrose did its job, document how much I gave, their BS and if they can eat/drink something fine. although you say 249 is "high" it could be their norm or on that pts lower end. my dad would consider this a good BS to have.

its all provider judgment like the others have said.

 

[Carlos Danger]

if this were my call/my pt I don't normally check blood sugar until a couple mins after giving it (the entire 25gm). Ive yet to have a pt come alert whilst pushing d50 (granted ive only been doing this for 5 minutes).

I guess if this DID happen then the dextrose did its job, document how much I gave, their BS and if they can eat/drink something fine. although you say 249 is "high" it could be their norm or on that pts lower end. my dad would consider this a good BS to have.

its all provider judgment like the others have said.

This.

 

[mycrofft]

I'd be charry about directly pushing D50 into a vein. How about, if you have the means, a piggyback with the D50 in some saline, and a shutoff between it and the TKO line? You can titrate more finely, and the likelihood of hyperosmotic damage to the vein and or neighboring tissues is reduced.

#1 question: latest insulin dose, what time and what was it? How sure?

That fast a climb in serum glucose suggests initial mis-measurement and/or mis-measurement in the followup.

I'm betting the initial measurement was off, or the pt's internal mechanisms are coming on line. (Is the pt also a drinker?). If this was "fingerstick glucometry", was the finger strongly pinched near the tip to procure a drop, causing a bad sample, versus milking the finger or holding it firmly at the base ands causing a veinous engorgement to generate enough blood?

I've also never seen a pt revive from a 29 (nearly seizing and unconscious) to conscious and "hyperglycemic" rapidly. AND, a transient glucose of 249, even if it is correct, is not that big a deal.

 

[medicasaurus]

Here in Canada D10W is the go to for a hypoglycemic and I have seen many patients fully regain consciousness on less than 250ml (25mg). Our guidelines here in BC is to bolus with reassessments for LOC every 100ml (10mg) and I would say it is rare to run in the entire 250ml as a bolus with most patients I have seen recovering around the 15-20mg range. Typically its is slowed to around 100ml/hr as the LOC is improved to prevent a hyperglycemia/rebound hypoglycemia. This is followed by a peanut butter and jelly sandwich or substitute. Hypoglycemia is normally a non-ALS call here as well (BLS being similar to EMT-A).

I also think D10 is a better option than D50, but have little experience with D50.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15983093

 

[Handsome Robb]

We titrate Up to a max of 25 gm.

I think that's what the poster above me means as well. 15-20mg of glucose in an adult isn't going to do much.

 

[Akulahawk]

When it comes to D50, I'm going to push it very, very slowly through a running IV line, over about 5-8 minutes. The general idea is to let the running fluid dilute the D50. While I could make a D10 solution and use that, we normally didn't carry anything less than a 1000 mL bag, so that's the solution I came up for titration of the D50 to effect. Most of the time that I've given it, "the lights" usually started to come back on at around 20gm and usually the patient was fully awake/oriented right as I finished pushing the 25gm. If the patient became fully awake before that, I'd probably have stopped the IV dose because the patient woke up and hopefully is able to begin PO intake for more long-term maintenance of their BGL.

Now if I'd had the ability to do D10 instead, I'd want it going in over 10-15 minutes. It's far more controllable than a D50 syringe is, and the glucose dose is the same if it's a 250 mL bag...

 

[Medic Tim]

When it comes to D50, I'm going to push it very, very slowly through a running IV line, over about 5-8 minutes. The general idea is to let the running fluid dilute the D50. While I could make a D10 solution and use that, we normally didn't carry anything less than a 1000 mL bag, so that's the solution I came up for titration of the D50 to effect. Most of the time that I've given it, "the lights" usually started to come back on at around 20gm and usually the patient was fully awake/oriented right as I finished pushing the 25gm. If the patient became fully awake before that, I'd probably have stopped the IV dose because the patient woke up and hopefully is able to begin PO intake for more long-term maintenance of their BGL.

Now if I'd had the ability to do D10 instead, I'd want it going in over 10-15 minutes. It's far more controllable than a D50 syringe is, and the glucose dose is the same if it's a 250 mL bag...

Same with me. I prefer d10 but am not always able to use it for various reasons. I rarely ever have to give the full amp.

 

[dalmain]

if this were my call/my pt I don't normally check blood sugar until a couple mins after giving it (the entire 25gm). Ive yet to have a pt come alert whilst pushing d50 (granted ive only been doing this for 5 minutes).

I guess if this DID happen then the dextrose did its job, document how much I gave, their BS and if they can eat/drink something fine. although you say 249 is "high" it could be their norm or on that pts lower end. my dad would consider this a good BS to have.

its all provider judgment like the others have said.

This was my train of thought too. I'm a medic but not that experienced. Back in school when I rode with Rescue the few times we got a hypoglycemic we pushed the whole 25g. But it makes sense that if the patient improves before, that you should stop and check the BS.
On scene this patient was in bed on oxygen. He was hospice with an invalid DNR. I could not get any history on this person. Just that he was a diabetic. No allergies. He was flaccid but breathing. We pinched him for the BS off his left index. BS: 29. Lungs clear. Pupils constricted. First IV attempt blew. He was a bleeder. Got a 20g to the left AC. Flushed, got a 500 cc NS ready. I was pretty much directing at this point and my partner began the D50 slow push. Half way through the patient eyes opened and he was more alert than before. But not enough to swallow. I don't know what his typical state or original state was. Blood pressure was around 90/60. SaO2: 95%. His eyes followed me but he didn't speak.
So for now on I'll titrate to effect.

 

[mycrofft]

Yeah. Testing at too close intervals promotes other issues, especially if you start messing with insulin.

Sugar is not that darn dangerous. Running out is. And once that sugar is on board, you MUST take measures to get more carbs on board or spur gluconeogenesis because that sugar's going to burn out soon and fast.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Yeah. Testing at too close intervals promotes other issues, especially if you start messing with insulin.

Sugar is not that darn dangerous. Running out is. And once that sugar is on board, you MUST take measures to get more carbs on board or spur gluconeogenesis because that sugar's going to burn out soon and fast.

This is exactly why I push the whole amp.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Extravasated sugar isn't very nice though...

I've got zero problems with giving the entire 25 grams of sugar. None. What I do have a problem with is the hyperosmolarity of D50 and the lack of understanding of that concept among EMS providers.

I know you two understand that concept...don't think I don't! Lol

 

[Akulahawk]

Yeah. Testing at too close intervals promotes other issues, especially if you start messing with insulin.

Sugar is not that darn dangerous. Running out is. And once that sugar is on board, you MUST take measures to get more carbs on board or spur gluconeogenesis because that sugar's going to burn out soon and fast.

This is exactly why I push the whole amp.

That's also why I push the whole 25g amp as well. Remember that's only 100 calories. It's enough to turn the lights on and keep them on for only a little while. So, once you've woken up the patient, you have to get them to eat something too for sustained effect. In terms of a car, the motor sputters and dies when you run out of gas. If you put a gallon of gas in the tank, you can run the car for a little while before it runs out of gas again, so after you've got the motor running, get to a gas station to properly fill the tank so you don't have to worry about running out of gas any time soon.

Although the number isn't quite precise, at my current weight (and assuming that I burn calories at a steady rate), I burn 1.6 calories per minute. That 25g carb load (100 calories) should last me only about 1 hour and then the tank would be empty again.

Food for thought.

 

[Handsome Robb]

That's also why I push the whole 25g amp as well. Remember that's only 100 calories. It's enough to turn the lights on and keep them on for only a little while. So, once you've woken up the patient, you have to get them to eat something too for sustained effect. In terms of a car, the motor sputters and dies when you run out of gas. If you put a gallon of gas in the tank, you can run the car for a little while before it runs out of gas again, so after you've got the motor running, get to a gas station to properly fill the tank so you don't have to worry about running out of gas any time soon.

Although the number isn't quite precise, at my current weight (and assuming that I burn calories at a steady rate), I burn 1.6 calories per minute. That 25g carb load (100 calories) should last me only about 1 hour and then the tank would be empty again.

Food for thought.

QFT.


Going to go out on a limb and say your body is more efficient than most of the unresponsive diabetics we run on. An hour is generous I'd say, depending on their size.

 

[Akulahawk]

Extravasated sugar isn't very nice though...

I've got zero problems with giving the entire 25 grams of sugar. None. What I do have a problem with is the hyperosmolarity of D50 and the lack of understanding of that concept among EMS providers.

I know you two understand that concept...don't think I don't! Lol

Extravasated sugar at lower concentrations isn't all that bad, actually. It's the higher concentrations that gets bad if it extravasates because it is so very hyperosmolar. That's why I push the stuff so slowly through a running IV line. I want the D50 to dilute as quickly as possible so it causes as little damage as possible.

The other reason I go so slow is so that I have a chance to catch an extravasated IV before too much gets out. Again, this limits the amount of potential damage that can occur if the D50 extravasates.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Extravasated sugar at lower concentrations isn't all that bad, actually. It's the higher concentrations that gets bad if it extravasates because it is so very hyperosmolar. That's why I push the stuff so slowly through a running IV line. I want the D50 to dilute as quickly as possible so it causes as little damage as possible.

The other reason I go so slow is so that I have a chance to catch an extravasated IV before too much gets out. Again, this limits the amount of potential damage that can occur if the D50 extravasates.

Exactly how I give it.

I was diluting it but got hollered at for that so I stopped and went back to a running line.

I talk like I know what I'm doing...haven't been on the truck in 6 weeks lol.

Damn shoulder.

 

[unleashedfury]

In my experience I have never been able to hammer the patient with D50.. stuff is like cement. So it takes some time to push it through a 18 or 20g.. 22 seems damn near impossible.

I got my pee pee smacked for running fluid on a Diabetic call than needed some sugar. it was told to me start a saline lock give them the D50 if they wake up eat and sign off fine, If they don't transport. I still think that giving some fluid to get that D50 diluted and moving along is better than just flushing with a 5ml saline flush.

OP I usually give half and see what kind of results I get, it isn't going to hurt to give it all, since the rest will go to waste anyways can't exactly box up a half used D50 and save it for later. If it takes a little or a lot to get them to wake up so be it.

The key is if your going to Treat and Street ensure they get a much more long lasting carbohydrate. PB&J sandwiches are great for this. I always tell my patient afterwards they must eat before I leave.