Good Samaritan Question

[AmeriMedic21]

Hi all, My roommate and i work full time on our ambulance service and we were discussing who is right or wrong. Here is the question: If i am off duty and im at walmart, and i see someone in cardiac arrest. If i decide to render aid to this pt, would i be immune under any possible negligence that could be done to the Pt? I think since i am not acting under my county agency, that i have the right to be covered and protected under the Good Samaritan Law. My roommate however says that i would not be covered because i work in EMS. Is this different by state? Im in Kansas. I just also want to state that this is a hypothetical question, lol i am not Dr. Mengele here.

 

[akflightmedic]

http://www.cprinstructor.com/KS-GS.htm

Please note letter A

 

[mycrofft]

Calif has similar law, however...

"would i be immune under any possible negligence that could be done to the Pt?"

No one is completely "immune under any possible negligence". By the way, your diction needs work, you don't do anything "under a negligence"; you may mean "immune regarding any alleged negligence, under the Good Sam act", maybe?

Wanton actions are not excused. Good Sam applies, but if it goes to court, your higher level of training and experience set you to a somewhat higher standard. A brand new basic bystander CPR cardholder will be excused more mistakes than someone with an EMT under their belt. The laws act to prevent punishment for the accidents which occur in the heat of the moment and the shortfalls which are inevitable due to lack of equipment. Good Sam is NOT "carte-blanche". You still have to step in and act as properly as you can.

 

[chuck stank]

Is this going to be another mega thread?

 

[Handsome Robb]

Is this going to be another mega thread?

I like this guy.


Alright joking aside if all you are rendering is first aid/BLS care (read CPR and AED) you have slim to no chance of being negligent, unless you are doing something REALLY wrong.

 

[Flight-LP]

Hi all, My roommate and i work full time on our ambulance service and we were discussing who is right or wrong. Here is the question: If i am off duty and im at walmart, and i see someone in cardiac arrest. If i decide to render aid to this pt, would i be immune under any possible negligence that could be done to the Pt? I think since i am not acting under my county agency, that i have the right to be covered and protected under the Good Samaritan Law. My roommate however says that i would not be covered because i work in EMS. Is this different by state? Im in Kansas. I just also want to state that this is a hypothetical question, lol i am not Dr. Mengele here.

Some states, Texas for instance, extends the good samaritan law to include EMS. Best bet would be to check with your state regulatory agency and your agency. They would be your best resources.

 

[Akulahawk]

Every state that I'm aware of has some version of a GS law. Generally speaking, it applies to EMS that's off-duty. Once you decide to get involved, you must provide care commensurate with your training AND the tools you have on hand, limited only by whatever "off-duty" restrictions you're given.

Here in Sacramento County, an accredited medic that's affiliated with an ALS service (even if they're a janitor) can provide the full ALS scope, limited by tools on hand when off-duty. Unaffiliated medics can only provide BLS level care. Most counties that I'm aware of limit off-duty medical care of Paramedics to BLS only, even if accredited in their system.

Limit yourself to BLS unless your system allows otherwise, or your level of training (mine is considerable, and therefore I'm held to a higher standard in some instances) and you'll be fine.

 

[Epi-do]

Good Sam laws vary greatly from state to state in who they cover, and to what extent. Look up the law for the state you are in, and give it a read.

And now, for a little tidbit of random trivia about Good Sam laws. (I did a class on them a few years ago, presenting some general history and then focusing in on the law of my state.) They were actually initially written to protect physicians, and not the general public. It was thought that if the physician knew s/he was protected, s/he would be more likely to stop at the scene of an accident and render aid. It wasn't until the idea of the law caught on with more and more states that it began to morph and change into what we now think of when talking about Good Sam laws.

 

[Fish]

Is this going to be another mega thread?

Smells that way

 

[akflightmedic]

I linked him/her to the exact State Law (Kansas).

 

[mycrofft]

Good discussion

I spent most of a day tracing down Good Sam for this state and applying it to CERT before I accepted the committee post. Calif passed the law specifically protecting medical professionals after they had a GS law in place.
I seem top remember that about 1980 Nebraska passed a "duty to act" law along with it mandating health professionals to stop at accidents. Anyone know more about that off hand?

 

[AmeriMedic21]

thanks all for the input, i did look up that link akflightmedic posted and it made good sense. And yes, im not indicating that im going to be negligent. lol, but i get what yall are saying

 

[AK_SAR]

NVRob, you seem to have changed your position?

...... if all you are rendering is first aid/BLS care (read CPR and AED) you have slim to no chance of being negligent, unless you are doing something REALLY wrong.

Rob, you seem to have changed your position. On the "How many of you carry a trauma bag in your POV" thread you said:

.....Any decent lawyer could take you to the cleaner if it did end up in court and you used this Good Sam law as your defense. ........... I refuse to risk my livelihood, my certification, me health and possibly my freedom for a complete stranger when I am not on duty and covered under my agencies insurance........

Why the sudden change of heart?

 

[Handsome Robb]

Rob, you seem to have changed your position. On the "How many of you carry a trauma bag in your POV" thread you said: Why the sudden change of heart?

I didn't change my stance. I never said I wouldn't provide CPR to someone who went down if it was safe for me to do so. Thats about all you will see me do though. CPR and AED if there's one available, I'm not running around with a trauma kit with OPAs, NPAs and all that jazz. Like I said in the post you quoted, I'm not risking my livelihood, my certification, my health and possibly my freedom when I am not on duty.

AK_SAR if I am not mistaken I also stated in the thread you referenced that I did in fact carry a couple pairs of gloves and a barrier device in my car.

I specifically stated CPR/AED in the post you quoted from this thread. If your trying to go above and beyond first aid type care off duty is when your going to get into trouble.

Nice try though.

edit: also you didn't include my entire post in the other thread or the good samaritan law that I was referencing. The law I was responding to in the other thread as posted by the OP of that thread specifically stated good samaritan did not apply to you if you were employed by an EMS company. It didn't specify on or off duty, only employed, hence my response that you quoted from that thread.

I might be young, but I'm definitely not dumb.

 

[AK_SAR]

I didn't change my stance. I never said I wouldn't provide CPR to someone who went down if it was safe for me to do so. Thats about all you will see me do though. CPR and AED if there's one available, I'm not running around with a trauma kit with OPAs, NPAs and all that jazz. Like I said in the post you quoted, I'm not risking my livelihood, my certification, my health and possibly my freedom when I am not on duty.

AK_SAR if I am not mistaken I also stated in the thread you referenced that I did in fact carry a couple pairs of gloves and a barrier device in my car.

I specifically stated CPR/AED in the post you quoted from this thread. If your trying to go above and beyond first aid type care off duty is when your going to get into trouble.

Well, the other thread never said much about exactly what care one would provide. At least in my state, OPA and NPA are well within BLS. As a former ski patroler, you know that they are also included in OEC (which is just glorified first aid). You probably yourself have probably used them on the hill. So CPR is OK, but maintaining an airway is not?

Nice try though.

edit: also you didn't include my entire post in the other thread or the good samaritan law that I was referencing. The law I was responding to in the other thread as posted by the OP of that thread specifically stated good samaritan did not apply to you if you were employed by an EMS company. It didn't specify on or off duty, only employed, hence my response that you quoted from that thread.

I might be young, but I'm definitely not dumb.

Are you an attorney licensed to practice in the state in question? If not, you are clearly well beyond your scope of practice when giving advice on Good Sam laws.

 

[Handsome Robb]

AK_SAR yes as a ski patroller I used the airway adjuncts you mentioned on the hill while I was employed as a professional ski patroller by a ski resort while operating under a medical directors license. That's the key point here.

I have never taken OEC however I have participated as an instructor on lab nights and worked with OEC trained volunteer ski patrollers so I have a general idea of their education and training. If you really want to get technical EMT-B is nothing more than glorified first aid either.

Ok, I'm not a lawyer you got me there. I offered my opinion to the OP's question, which is what he/she asked for in the thread in question.

OPA/NPA are not taught in BLS classes, the jaw thrust and head tilt chin lift are therefore operating under BLS/BCLS off duty I would not personally consider an adjunct a BLS skill. I never said maintaining the airway is not OK, I stated that I wouldn't use an adjunct while off duty. There are other ways to maintain a patent airway without an adjunct. Is it a pain in the ***? Yes it is. Has it been proven effective? Yes it has, otherwise they wouldn't continue to teach the modified jaw thrust and the head-tilt chin lift method.

I'm not quite sure why you decided to single me out on this one AK, but if you want to continue this discussion I am more than happy to talk to you directly through email or a separate public thread so we don't continue this in someone else's thread. I am more than happy to provide you my email if you feel the need, just pm me.

If you wanna pull the ski patroller card I can play that game too dude or dudette. You as a ski patroller and EMS provider should understand the limits and ramifications to your actions while providing care while not on duty.

 

[Akulahawk]

If you're an EMT or above and you have OPA/NPA available to you, you can use the adjunct. The jaw-thrust and chin-lift methods of maintaining an open airway are taught precisely because many times you don't have any airway stuff available when you're off duty.

There's quite a bit of stuff I can do off-duty precisely because I can show that I've been educated to do those things. When it comes to matters of CPR, I stick to BLS + AED. What's interesting to note is that my county expressly authorizes any County Accredited Paramedic (affiliated or not) to possess and use advanced airways off-duty while everything else that is considered an ALS item is forbidden... generally. I don't carry that stuff because... I just don't.

 

[Handsome Robb]

If you're an EMT or above and you have OPA/NPA available to you, you can use the adjunct. The jaw-thrust and chin-lift methods of maintaining an open airway are taught precisely because many times you don't have any airway stuff available when you're off duty.

There's quite a bit of stuff I can do off-duty precisely because I can show that I've been educated to do those things. When it comes to matters of CPR, I stick to BLS + AED. What's interesting to note is that my county expressly authorizes any County Accredited Paramedic (affiliated or not) to possess and use advanced airways off-duty while everything else that is considered an ALS item is forbidden... generally. I don't carry that stuff because... I just don't.

I'm not doubting you Akula but I would like to see some legislation behind this before I would ever consider using an adjunct while not on duty. I'm wondering is this is specific to your county.

AK I'm still wondering you you picked me out from all the options of people you had in that thread.

 

[Akulahawk]

I'm not doubting you Akula but I would like to see some legislation behind this before I would ever consider using an adjunct while not on duty. I'm wondering is this is specific to your county.

AK I'm still wondering you you picked me out from all the options of people you had in that thread.

I picked you simply because you were the most convenient foil for my point (I think) or I picked you at random. In any event, the best you'll find for legislated stuff for Nevada is:

NRS 41.500 General rule; volunteers; members of search and rescue organization; persons rendering cardiopulmonary resuscitation or using defibrillator; presumptions relating to emergency care rendered on public school grounds or in connection with public school activities; business or organization that has defibrillator for use on premises. 1. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 41.505, any person in this State who renders emergency care or assistance in an emergency, gratuitously and in good faith, except for a person who is performing community service as a result of disciplinary action pursuant to any provision in title 54 of NRS, is not liable for any civil damages as a result of any act or omission, not amounting to gross negligence, by that person in rendering the emergency care or assistance or as a result of any act or failure to act, not amounting to gross negligence, to provide or arrange for further medical treatment for the injured person.

In other words, if you come across a person in need of airway management and you have basic adjuncts with you and you're trained in their use, you may use them, as long as your act of using the adjunct did NOT result in further harm.

Put an OPA in correctly and it lifts the tongue off the posterior oropharynx, thus creating a pathway for air to flow. Lift the tongue off the posterior oropharynx by using a jaw thrust, and you accomplish the same thing. As I see it, OPA/NPA/Jaw-Thrust all fit in the same category of basic airway management. It's possible to ventilate using simple tools such as a mask or other standard barrier device, or mouth-to-mouth type tools... and the air will go the same places.

If you've not been trained in OPA/NPA use, don't use them because if there's an adverse outcome directly attributed to their use... gross negligence stuff comes into play.

Oh, and if you choose to not have those tools available or you choose not to use them, that's also covered under GS as long as you still manage the airway effectively using manual techniques. I'm not saying you MUST use an OPA or an NPA... just that you're not limited to the modified Jaw-Thrust if you've been trained to use other airway management techniques.

 

[DV_EMT]

I thought this was settled (more or less) with the California Lawsuit that determined that Good Samaritan law only applied to medical patients. If its a rescue, you're not covered (unless imminent life threatening danger)?