Give Yourself a Christmas Bonus

[JPINFV]

How much did I expect to make as an advanced level pre hospital medical professional, with the ability to administer pharmacological agents via various routes IV, IM, SQ, Advanced airway management, Transcutaneous pacing, defibrillate, etc etc??

Once again, breaking down EMS into a trade defined by individual skills and not a profession defined by a unique knowledge set. Really? You're amazed that you can use an IV? Slap on a set of patches and pace or defibrillate? You do realize that no one in medicine is amazed by any of that (side note, my God, I'm starting to sound like VentMedic)?

I was hoping to be able to pay my bills. That whole you don't have a degree excuse i have heard it before from paramedic school wash outs, besides how many clowns don't you see running around with college degrees but no real skills or specialized training? And no jobs? Ambulance companies charge and arm and a leg for their services ALS, BLS, they just want to keep a high profit margin by exploiting their EMS workers.

Do you not make enough to live or not make enough to live at the standard that you would like to live at. There's a difference between the two. Additionally employees bare, at least in large part if not in its entirety, for not increasing their worth, making sure their employers know their worth, and then leveraging that for a better wage. If the only thing you do is take the standard wage, get into the ambulance every day, and not distinguish yourself then, yea, you're going to get paid market wage.

As far as the degree issue, the only people I ever hear complain about degrees being required are those who can't pass simple courses like anatomy and physiology, instead having to rely on the 2 week medic mill courses that dumb everything down. Here's an idea. You want to go into nursing, put your view on education into practice. Only accept diploma nursing programs and refuse to attend any ADN or BSN programs.

As far as good paying jobs with minimal education??LAFD, LAPD, LASD, Ca dept of corrections. Bottom line there is no excuse for that poor pay, shady businesses that want to take advantage of high supply of EMS workers.
I checked the Local for Plumbers and pipefitters my brother belongs too they have 300 applicants on the waiting list for apprentice and its starts at 21.50 an hour for first year plumbers apprentice.

First off, all 4 of those you listed are directly funded by tax dollars. Shall we look at the status of the state budget? Yea, I wouldn't necessarily want to be in a position that requires tax dollars to wholly fund operations right now, especially in California where the budget is "balanced" by openly cooking the books.

300 applicants for plumbers? There's easily 300 EMTs entering the workforce every 3 months in places like California. Additionally, if all 300 demand $21.50/hr then they have to pay $21.50 an hour. How many EMTs and paramedics are willing to take minimum wage jobs?

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

How much did I expect to make as an advanced level pre hospital medical professional, with the ability to administer pharmacological agents via various routes IV, IM, SQ, Advanced airway management, Transcutaneous pacing, defibrillate, etc etc??
I was hoping to be able to pay my bills.

Its hard to demand wages for your skills when there are thousands of medics with the same qualifications and certs being produced annually

That whole you don't have a degree excuse i have heard it before from paramedic school wash outs, besides how many clowns don't you see running around with college degrees but no real skills or specialized training? And no jobs?

Just getting a degree doesn't equate to a high earning job. There must be demand for the laborer. I'm not saying that humanities classes will benefit EMS, I'm saying that if you made it a degree there would be less people that would complete it and higher wages.

Ambulance companies charge and arm and a leg for their services ALS, BLS, they just want to keep a high profit margin by exploiting their EMS workers.
As far as good paying jobs with minimal education??LAFD, LAPD, LASD, Ca dept of corrections. Bottom line there is no excuse for that poor pay, shady businesses that want to take advantage of high supply of EMS workers.

Breaking News! Every company wants to maximize its profits for its shareholders (whether its publicly traded or owned by a few people as your company probably is) they don't exactly care about whats right or wrong, they want to provide the lowest wages they can while still keeping enough people employed to keep their company running. If they can pay medics $8.00 an hour and there are still enough medics wanting the job that they can function, then that benefits their company. How do you deal with this? By increasing the education requirements you reduce the amount of people that are readily available for this company to hire. The industry raises its wages and benefits to draw people to it. Or you could impose higher wages on them through unionizing.

I checked the Local for Plumbers and pipefitters my brother belongs too they have 300 applicants on the waiting list for apprentice and its starts at 21.50 an hour for first year plumbers apprentice.

I explained this in my previous post, they unionized and hence their is a barrier to entry.

My fellow EMTs and Paramedic united we stand, devided we fall. Good luck to all

I'm surprised you didn't end it with this picture

 

[iftmedic]

Thank you Moto

 

[46Young]

I always find it funny when EMTs and paramedics complain about a lack of pay and lack of respect, and then they go and pull BS like this. EMS providers are truly their own worst enemy.

As far as I'm concerned, they're thr one's pulling BS by giving us late calls as the rule rather than the exception. If they don't care about me, then I don't care about them. They're holding numerous late jobs due to lack of staffing, because they don't want to pay out for more crews. If you can't be honest when giving a start and finish time, then I'm gonna make you pay. If I can turn the call around quickly and definitely get off on time, that's one thing. When you're giving me another call with a half hour to go, I'm going to make it worth my while financially since you're involuntarily holding me past the agreed end of shift.

I used to turn calls over rather quickly. I understood that the more calls we can fit in, the better the company does. Even with my quick turnarounds, they still hit me with late jobs all the time. What they say is true - you're getting another call no matter how quick you clear. I'd work faster if they would return the favor and let me get off on time. Like most others, I eventually slowed my pace. Why turn over 10 calls on a shift when everyone else does 6? I'm not seeing any pay for performance incentives, or any courtesy from the dispatchers. I didn't milk the calls during the regular shift hours, but I certainly didn't hustle, either.

 

[iftmedic]

Cool picture I like it, lol!!!

 

[iftmedic]

Yeah I just thought starting an IV, slapping pads on, or administration of meds would be somewhat as amazing as when RN performs the skill, but your right its probably appears to be more impressive when you have received classes in, Microbiology, Chemistry, psychology, etc. All the classes that make up that AS degree, what was I thinking? Its probably because we make it look so easy in an uncontrolled environment. Lol

 

[JPINFV]

I never said I was impressed when RNs do it either, and I'm not impressed that you can start an IV and administer nitro in Granny's living room because it's "uncontrolled."

 

[adamjh3]

You could teach a monkey to slap pads on. Now that is pretty amazing to me.

 

[usalsfyre]

Yeah I just thought starting an IV, slapping pads on, or administration of meds would be somewhat as amazing as when RN performs the skill, but your right its probably appears to be more impressive when you have received classes in, Microbiology, Chemistry, psychology, etc. All the classes that make up that AS degree, what was I thinking? Its probably because we make it look so easy in an uncontrolled environment. Lol

Delusions of granduer do nothing to advance the profession.

 

[iftmedic]

Well, I'm not saying you can't teach monkeys to a follow simple protocols, but also don't talk to me about these glorified high school courses, Ive taken Microbiology, sociology, chemistry, blah, blah, I must say that wasn't very difficult, I was hungover most of the time and still maintained a 3.0 Gpa, Im currently pursuing my nursing degree, but I must say my 14 months of Paramedic school was pretty intense compared to any of those courses that are probably pretty good for trivia if I could still remember all the nonsense.

I have to say jobs that are funded by tax dollars pay a lot more and offer more job security, Private companies collect a ridicoulous amount for their services, they will charge like 1500 to 2000 for a Paramedic Advanced Life support transport a few miles down the road, but the paramedics maybe make about 13 dollars an hour?? They may as well have monkeys providing care or the caveman on the gieco commercial.

 

[JPINFV]

Well, I'm not saying you can't teach monkeys to a follow simple protocols, but also don't talk to me about these glorified high school courses, Ive taken Microbiology, sociology, chemistry, blah, blah, I must say that wasn't very difficult, I was hungover most of the time and still maintained a 3.0 Gpa, Im currently pursuing my nursing degree, but I must say my 14 months of Paramedic school was pretty intense compared to any of those courses that are probably pretty good for trivia if I could still remember all the nonsense.

Also, why go for a nursing degree when you believe that degrees are BS?

I have to say jobs that are funded by tax dollars pay a lot more and offer more job security, Private companies collect a ridicoulous amount for their services, they will charge like 1500 to 2000 for a Paramedic Advanced Life support transport a few miles down the road, but the paramedics maybe make about 13 dollars an hour?? They may as well have monkeys providing care or the caveman on the gieco commercial.

Yea, it's amazing the difference in collection rate between taxes and bills. If I don't pay my bills, the police don't come and arrest me like they do for tax evasion. Good luck trying to pin a case on patients who don't pay their ambulance bill for theft of service.

 

[Shishkabob]

I, like 46y, used to bust my butt to get calls turned over for my company. Then I realized how much my company screwed me over.

A single BLS call pays for the EMT and Paramedic at my agency in a 12hr shift (EMT = $126.60, Medic = $162) ... with nearly $300 left over to pay for the fuel used and equipment used. If I run 1 BLS call in a shift, or 9 ALS calls, I'm not seeing any of the extra money, either in my pocket or in new(ish) equipment on the truck to make our jobs easier or better for our patients.


I understand private business. I know the company is used to make money. But not at my expense, or my patients.



I no longer bust by *** for the company. I come, do the job expected for the pay they give me, and that's it. (Let it be known I still bust my butt for my patients, just not my company). The moment the clock strikes my off hour and for some reason I'm not already at the station, and I'm not actively on a call, I head back to station with or without dispatch approval. (IFT, not 911) I have no qualms being held late for an emergency call... but you will NOT hold a truck late for a BLS transfer back to a nursing home when there are other trucks on who get off later.

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

I understand private business. I know the company is used to make money. But not at my expense, or my patients.

I no longer bust by *** for the company. I come, do the job expected for the pay they give me, and that's it. (Let it be known I still bust my butt for my patients, just not my company).

This is a perfectly reasonable methodology.

Well, I'm not saying you can't teach monkeys to a follow simple protocols, but also don't talk to me about these glorified high school courses, Ive taken Microbiology, sociology, chemistry, blah, blah, I must say that wasn't very difficult, I was hungover most of the time and still maintained a 3.0 Gpa, Im currently pursuing my nursing degree, but I must say my 14 months of Paramedic school was pretty intense compared to any of those courses that are probably pretty good for trivia if I could still remember all the nonsense.

Regardless of the lack of intensity that your JC has in their intro science classes, I promise you that their is real information out there that can put EMS providers in a position to gain more respect from their colleagues. Your attitude reflects one of the main reasons why doctors fear giving medics leeway in their treatment decisions.

They may as well have monkeys providing care or the caveman on the gieco commercial.

Doesn't this contradict your previous post of the grandeur of paramedics' advanced pharmacological interventions and airway tubes. You said most people who are angry about education usually washout of medic school, well to me you sound like someone who is angry you didn't get hired on at a fire department.

 

[iftmedic]

Actually I'm not saying I don't believe in degrees or education, In fact I have my AS in EMS a lot of the requirements for general ed for AS in nursing I've completed, I'm gonna do a Paramedic to RN bridge in about 14 lousy months for the core nursing classes and do clinicals and then I could sit for my RN Licensure exam, and hopefully get my RN, I'm planning to work on an Ambulance as a CCT transport nurse performing the same skills that as you stated could be performed by a monkey, same amount of responsibility except now maybe I will have patient on drips on pumps infusing precise amounts of meds wich will be determined by doctors orders, but essentially same type of work for whole lot more money.
All I was pointing out that EMS workers are exploited by these companies and your gonna pointing out because a few that milk calls is why there is little respect and poor pay? C'mon that makes no sense and you've obviously never been in the field.

 

[Veneficus]

without getting into the morality of milking the clock/maximizing pay or whatever personal view you hold, the solution to all the problems with IFT is really really simple.

Don't work there.

(I should charge for this kind of knowledge)

 

[iftmedic]

No, I'm not contradicting the post I'm just being sarcastic in response to the statement about teaching monkeys and the ALS skills.

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

I never said I was against those milking the calls. I could care less, particularly for a strictly IFT company, which I don't consider a part of EMS. But when it comes to general pay of EMT/Medics in EMS I think its important for us to know why we are in this situation and what we could do to change that, whether were committed to those requirements or not.

 

[iftmedic]

Sandiego, what treatment modalities exactly are we talking about?? In Riverside our protocols are pretty progressive and things are great, I have great rapport with other members of the healthcare team including the docs I see everyday, in fact for the very few treatment options that require base hospital contact I usually don't encounter issues with MICNs or doctors. So I really don't know what your talking about. I'm not talking about job my I like my job and my patience, but I wish I could say the same about my paycheck, As far as going fire I never considered it, I never applied,I did imagine paramedic work to pay a little better, but that was not the case, I figure get my RN License that's a little more secure. Maybe after I get my RN ill volunteer as a firefighter somewhere, ill be able afford it on my RN salary.

 

[SanDiegoEmt7]

Now we have three unrelated subjects going (1)milking OT hours (2)economics behind the low pay and (3) progression of protocols and medical direction.

I never cared about the first one, I definitely don't care to get into the third one, and I have thoroughly explained my opinion (based on economics) of the second one.

Summary of my stance in as few words as possible:

EMS has low pay because it has a low barrier of entry. Its brief education requirements do little to dissuade potential EMT/medic's from entering the field. The industry has the "fun factor" which attracts a great deal of people as well. Together these create an oversupply of providers, which causes a drop in wages (simple supply and demand here). There are ways to increase wages. The first would be to reduce the supply, and the primary method of this is to increase the educational requirements for entry into the field, since the fun factor isn't going anywhere. Another way is to unionize, but this is near impossible when the minimal barriers of entry (education combined with the fun factor) will always provide EMTs who are willing to work for the minimal wages and willing to cross picket lines. Not to mention that in the long shot the industry unionized, it would create a large gap between the labor supply and the demand for them (open jobs), in other words unemployment.

This has nothing to do with milking clocks, it has nothing to do with your relationship with your colleagues and medical direction, nothing to do with your protocols. It simply has to do with the economic explanation of our wages, which every EMT/medic should understand so that they are not bitter. Employers do not pick random wages, they are set by market conditions, that have very little to do with morality (which the altruistic provider has a hard time discerning, "but I'm helping people, why are they screwing me?"). Business is business, regardless if it's electronics, construction, or even healthcare. There are economic ways to change this situation, some of them coincide with things that would mutually benefit the patient and the industry (higher education).

That's it. I'm out. As Veneficus put it, leave the industry. If you want to stay, understand the forces at play, and understand how they can be changed. For the record an AS degree which you advocate, is still a very, very low entry barrier.

 

[iftmedic]

RNs with an AS also make very good wages because of the specialized training and licensure associated. This is not a new subject I'm just clarifying what you mentioned about the AS advocacy
The reason I went off the subject with the protocol thing, that was also in response to what you wrote about MD not giving us leeway with our treatments, all the directions we have taken has simply been in response to you, but I'm enlightened now. I will just go get me a bachelors degree and then work as a EMT-B in San Diego. lol!!!!!