Give Yourself a Christmas Bonus

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46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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A comment I passed on another thread got me thinking...

Many complain about getting late jobs, particularly when doing IFT. The standard practice is to try and turn over the call as quickly as possible in order to get off of work as close to the end of shift as possible. Dispatch and admin count on this, no doubt. Since late jobs were given to me around 90% of the time, I made it personal policy to milk each and every call. 30-45 minutes on the floor. I would call dispatch and advise them of delayed PPW, pending med admin, or some other reason. Slow drive to the residence using alternate routes (GPS told me to go this way). 30 mins + at the drop off, slow drive back to the fuel pumps, etc.

I had two IFT tours a week. I easily squeezed 30-45 mins out of each call in excess of what I would be doing at my regular, productive pace. That's an hour to an hour and a half of OT a week. Over 52 weeks in a year, that's 50-60 hours of time and a half pay, at least. That's like an extra week's paycheck or two at the end of the year. I call it a Christmas bonus. Who's bending who over? :P

Even if you don't try to call with delayed pickup excuses, you can certainly find ways to squeeze 30 mins or so out of the late job, along with refueling, restock, decon, etc.
 
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There's a couple guys at my station that complain they don't get enough hours, but then :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan when they get a call that will put them on OT. I can't for the life of me figure that one out.
 
I always find it funny when EMTs and paramedics complain about a lack of pay and lack of respect, and then they go and pull BS like this. EMS providers are truly their own worst enemy.
 
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Because scheduled hours are planned, unexpected late call forcing OT is not.

Majority of humans want a controlled, planned environment, they want to be in charge of their decisions. A late call strips them of that...scheduled hours do not.

Many times it is not about the money, it is about a routine and a semblance of control.
 
I figured that when I show up for a 12 hour shift, I expected to not be able to go home for another 6 hours... because of a late call. I never counted on having free time after the scheduled EOW because of a late run. The longest I've been held-over past the end of shift was 4 hours. If I got OT, fine. If not, fine. Why? I was usually getting 20+ hours of OT per week anyway... and that was what was scheduled!

The person that griped the most about being held-over? My wife...
 
Jp, I have to disagree poor pay and lack of respect has nothing to do with milking calls, It has to do with greedy inconsiderate ambulance companies, That basically capitalize on EMTs and Paramedics that are hoping to land a career ems position with livable wages and benefits. These companies refuse to give overtime, but when convenient want to hold you over on a scheduled IFT and the reality is even with time and a half or even double time the wages are not that great because of the poverty level pay. If transporting the sick and afflicted and saving life's doesn't pay your bills, then my fellow EMTs and Paramedics if milking calls can help you Pay your bills more power to you. Specially if you work for a pathetic company that prohibits working for a second ambulance job that is the most ridiculous policy I have ever heard of. My brother in law never graduated high school he's a union plumber he makes $42.50 an hour that not counting his complete bennies package he's usually at the bar by 2:00 in the afternoon, I have an AS in EMS I'm a Licensed Paramedic I make roughly around $14 dollars oh I left the Corps as Sgt in 03, I have to work over 80 hours a week just to get by and I don't even have medical insurance. I was better off staying in the Marine corps I would have maybe been a GYSGT by now with a retirement in the horizon. Anyways that's just my response to JP statement but your right we are our own enemy because we chose this career path, That's why I'm pursuing my RN and never looking back at this ridiculous time in my life when I was an ambulance driver I mean paramedic for the privates.
 
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iftmedic said:
Jp, I have to disagree poor pay and lack of respect has nothing to do with milking calls, It has to do with greedy inconsiderate ambulance companies, That basically capitalize on EMTs and Paramedics that are hoping to land a career ems position with livable wages and benefits. These companies refuse to give overtime, but when convenient want to hold you over on a scheduled IFT and the reality is even with time and a half or even double time the wages are not that great because of the poverty level pay. If transporting the sick and afflicted and saving life's doesn't pay your bills, then my fellow EMTs and Paramedics if milking calls can help you Pay your bills more power to you. Specially if you work for a pathetic company that prohibits working for a second ambulance job that is the most ridiculous policy I have ever heard of. My brother in law never graduated high school he's a union plumber he makes $42.50 an hour that not counting his complete bennies package he's usually at the bar by 2:00 in the afternoon, I have an AS in EMS I'm a Licensed Paramedic I make roughly around $14 dollars oh I left the Corps as Sgt in 03, I have to work over 80 hours a week just to get by and I don't even have medical insurance. I was better off staying in the Marine corps I would have maybe been a GYSGT by now with a retirement in the horizon. Anyways that's just my response to JP statement but your right we are our own enemy because we chose this career path, That's why I'm pursuing my RN and never looking back at this ridiculous time in my life when I was an ambulance driver I mean paramedic for the privates.
Click to expand...

I am not a staunch supporter of Unions, but the situation in SoCal for Paramedics and EMTs certainly warrants them. Police, FD, RNs, etc. all have unions. I don't think it makes these public servants lazy in the least. Its ridiculous over there.

I knew a full time employee at an IFT company who had worked there for over a year. He picked a schedule that fit around his school schedule, but a month later management decided to alter the start times of his unit and told him that he would have to go part-time or quit. If he went part time he lost his benefits. This is only one example of the numerous things I saw.

At-will, non-unionized employees getting shafted. They have so many applicants waiting to get into the industry that they can literally tell every employee "You don't like it? Leave"
 
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iftmedic said:
Jp, I have to disagree poor pay and lack of respect has nothing to do with milking calls, It has to do with greedy inconsiderate ambulance companies, That basically capitalize on EMTs and Paramedics that are hoping to land a career ems position with livable wages and benefits. These companies refuse to give overtime, but when convenient want to hold you over on a scheduled IFT and the reality is even with time and a half or even double time the wages are not that great because of the poverty level pay. If transporting the sick and afflicted and saving life's doesn't pay your bills, then my fellow EMTs and Paramedics if milking calls can help you Pay your bills more power to you. Specially if you work for a pathetic company that prohibits working for a second ambulance job that is the most ridiculous policy I have ever heard of. My brother in law never graduated high school he's a union plumber he makes $42.50 an hour that not counting his complete bennies package he's usually at the bar by 2:00 in the afternoon, I have an AS in EMS I'm a Licensed Paramedic I make roughly around $14 dollars oh I left the Corps as Sgt in 03, I have to work over 80 hours a week just to get by and I don't even have medical insurance. I was better off staying in the Marine corps I would have maybe been a GYSGT by now with a retirement in the horizon. Anyways that's just my response to JP statement but your right we are our own enemy because we chose this career path, That's why I'm pursuing my RN and never looking back at this ridiculous time in my life when I was an ambulance driver I mean paramedic for the privates.
Click to expand...

How much are you honestly expecting to make working a job that doesn't require a degree where the training can be completed in less than a month at one level, and less than a year at the top level?

If these working conditions are so terrible, how come people are lining up to get employed, regardless of the state of the economy?

Isn't it just a tad ironic to cite "greed" in a thread whose sole purpose is to be greedy at the cost of having a poor work ethic?

Do plumbers have as many people waiting for employment as EMS does?
 
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JPINFV said:
Do plumbers have as many people waiting for employment as EMS does?
Click to expand...

aniGif5.gif


This image is has a EMS supply curve of similar angle to the blue "s" curve, but you can't see it because its shifted off the screen to the right :)
 
Something else to think about. If Unions were put in place for EMS, while benefiting those represented by the union, it would also increase the amount of unemployed EMTs and Paramedics. In some locations the amount of jobless Paramedics/EMTs is already phenomenal. Entry into the EMS field could become almost impossible.
 
...and that's the key to the problem. Additionally, it's a 'hero' job that attracts many many prospective employees who don't fully understand the job, it's a stepping stone job (and, to clarify, I mean people who enter it with the sole intention of leaving ASAP, thus leading to a transient workforce at many companies), which the biggest offender is the fire department (how many EMTs are working just until they get on with the fire department?), and the barriers of entry are insanely low. Physicians would have an insanely low wage if the barrier to entry (which, in the case of physicians, is mostly due to lack of education capacity than applicants or difficulty given the low drop out rate) was lower, but considering that there's only about half the number of spots than applicants, the barrier to entry remains.
 
JPINFV said:
...and that's the key to the problem. Additionally, it's a 'hero' job that attracts many many prospective employees who don't fully understand the job, it's a stepping stone job (and, to clarify, I mean people who enter it with the sole intention of leaving ASAP, thus leading to a transient workforce at many companies), which the biggest offender is the fire department (how many EMTs are working just until they get on with the fire department?), and the barriers of entry are insanely low. Physicians would have an insanely low wage if the barrier to entry (which, in the case of physicians, is mostly due to lack of education capacity than applicants or difficulty given the low drop out rate) was lower, but considering that there's only about half the number of spots than applicants, the barrier to entry remains.
Click to expand...

Yet another thing to think about:

How many college students work NON-PAID, no benefits internships for a year or more, many of which are 20+ hours a week. With the hopes of getting a job out of college that pays well (maybe 60-100k/yr, that's with a four year degree mind you). Working as an EMT, getting paid (even if its 9-12/hr), and then pursuing your FF/medic job (~60-100k/yr) doesn't really seem like that big of a deal.
 
However, interns aren't replacing the workers that matter in companies. No engineering firm or accounting firm is going to replace an engineer or accountant with an intern from the local university. An assistant? Sure, but the actual person making decisions? Nope. A better application to EMS would be an intern replacing something akin to a vehicle service tech (the people at some companies who restock and clean ambulances) than the actual providers. Now if EMS regularly staffed units with more than 2 providers, I could see the intern argument making sense.
 
JPINFV said:
However, interns aren't replacing the workers that matter in companies. No engineering firm or accounting firm is going to replace an engineer or accountant with an intern from the local university. An assistant? Sure, but the actual person making decisions? Nope. A better application to EMS would be an intern replacing something akin to a vehicle service tech (the people at some companies who restock and clean ambulances) than the actual providers. Now if EMS regularly staffed units with more than 2 providers, I could see the intern argument making sense.
Click to expand...

I only meant to make a comparison through personal loss of time of a college intern compared to an EMT, with the same salary goal in sight.

But I see what you are saying on the economics side of it.
 
Jp, Are you even in EMS? To down play the vital role Paramedics perform in field as advanced providers with that poor excuse of no college degree, that's not even relevant Paramedics and EMTs have specialized training, a degree doesn't necessarily prepare you for the job force. The Degree excuse is usually thrown out there by Paramedic school wash outs.
Now, for jobs that offer great pay and Bennies? with no education? LAFD, LAPD, LASD, CA Dept of corrections, that's just a few awesome retirement too. High diploma or Bed be 21. Oh that reminds me as far as the Plumbers and pipe fitters union they had over 200 people on the waiting list to get on as apprentices I think starting was around 20 dollars 1st year apprentice. work ethic? I'm confused.
 
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iftmedic said:
Jp, Are you even in EMS? To down play the vital role Paramedics perform in field as advanced providers with that poor excuse of no college degree, that's not even relevant Paramedics and EMTs have specialized training, a degree doesn't necessarily prepare you for the job force. The Degree excuse is usually thrown out there by Paramedic school wash outs.
Now, for jobs that offer great pay and Bennies? with no education? LAFD, LAPD, LASD, CA Dept of corrections, that's just a few awesome retirement too. High diploma or Bed be 21. Oh that reminds me as far as the Plumbers and pipe fitters union they had over 200 people on the waiting list to get on as apprentices I think starting was around 20 dollars 1st year apprentice. work ethic? I'm confused.
Click to expand...

He's not minimizing the importance of EMS, he's just stating simple facts of economics.

A unionized field such as Police, Fire, or tradesmen (such as your plumber friend) have limited the amount of people allowed entry into the field.

A fire department can only hire so many people on a limited budget if it must meet the contract requirements set forth by the union. Same with police, sheriff, etc. If you look on the graph above, a union takes that Blue labor supply curve and turns it horizontal on the Wmin line (which represents prevailing wage set forth by the union/industry). The employer can only afford to hire L1 amount of employers at this wage, so there is high unemployment in the general labor supply (L2-L1). This is why there are something like 3000 applicants for every Fire job in SoCal. This is why there are 200 applicants waiting to get into a the field of plumbing.

Since EMS is not unionized it allows the wages to be set by the true demand of the industry. This allows greater entry, generally one can get a job in the field in a reasonable amount of time. The only other barrier, which JP is talking about, is education. Four years of undergrad, difficult testing, and limited spots at medical schools, creates a high barrier of entry into the field. This can also be seen by other NON-UNIONIZED jobs such as engineering, business, law, etc. These jobs all require a bachelors and grad school, which creates a higher barrier of entry, lowering supply and increasing wages.

Single role EMS generally lacks unions and most definitely lacks true education, and without either there is no barrier to entry and crappy wages.

On a side note, the "specialized" training of medic school would definitely be well augmented by semesters of statistics, microbiology, physiology labs, biology with labs, chemistry, organic chemistry, biochemistry, nutrition, pharmacology, molecular/cellular biology, psychology, abnormal psychology. I don't even want to list the more specific classes or non science classes that just wake someone a more educated and well rounded person. You can see how this could easily be a bachelors degree for a more educated provider.
 
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Perhaps a good way to think of it is this, how do we want to increase the wages of our field:

1) Unionizing: keeping education standards the same, but limiting the amount of people allowed into the industry, because of limited budgets and high contract requirements.

or

2) Increasing education: also serves to create some barriers of entry in the field which increases our wages, while also increasing the average competency of our field providers and warranting increased respect from other healthcare professionals and our patients.

Both could be done at the same time, but they certainly don't have to coexist, and both increase our wages. Something to note, if the barriers set forth by the union are higher than those of education, it could prevent those who have already committed to this "bachelors in paramedicine" from acquiring a job quickly.
 
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How much did I expect to make as an advanced level pre hospital medical professional, with the ability to administer pharmacological agents via various routes IV, IM, SQ, Advanced airway management, Transcutaneous pacing, defibrillate, etc etc??
I was hoping to be able to pay my bills. That whole you don't have a degree excuse i have heard it before from paramedic school wash outs, besides how many clowns don't you see running around with college degrees but no real skills or specialized training? And no jobs? Ambulance companies charge and arm and a leg for their services ALS, BLS, they just want to keep a high profit margin by exploiting their EMS workers.
As far as good paying jobs with minimal education??LAFD, LAPD, LASD, Ca dept of corrections. Bottom line there is no excuse for that poor pay, shady businesses that want to take advantage of high supply of EMS workers.
I checked the Local for Plumbers and pipefitters my brother belongs too they have 300 applicants on the waiting list for apprentice and its starts at 21.50 an hour for first year plumbers apprentice.
My fellow EMTs and Paramedic united we stand, devided we fall. Good luck to all
 
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JPINFV said:
I always find it funny when EMTs and paramedics complain about a lack of pay and lack of respect, and then they go and pull BS like this. EMS providers are truly their own worst enemy.
Click to expand...

I agree that EMS does things that hurt themselves, but disagree somewhat that milking OT is somehow worse in EMS or is a main component of why EMS doesn't get the respect it wants. I would guess that the vast majority of working individuals in every career field milk the clock when they are in an OT situation. Does it hurt EMS? Maybe, but to say it's BS in EMS means you have to say it's BS in every other career field as well. EMS employees do it for the same reason that an accountant or a engineer do it- to get paid more. Next time a plumber tells me he got big OT staying late unclogging grandma's toilet doing a job that, instead of taking 3 minutes like it normally does, he milked to 45 minutes, am I supposed to scoff and tell him that he makes all plumbers look bad and would get more respect if he just did the work order and went home? If you say you hate it when EMS milks OT then you must say you hate it when every field milks OT, because there's no difference when an engineer or plumber does it than when EMS does it.
 
I see, yeah your right about entry, that definately has an impact on pay and the chances of being under paid.
 
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