From a different point of view.

[BuddingEMT]

Has anybody been in a car accident or some other trauma-related injury (or even been a medical patient, for that matter) and had EMT-Bs show up to the scene that seemed inexperienced?

I would hate to be dying and have someone who took a two week EMT crash course be working on me. With so little clinicals it seems like they just have to learn purely off of trial and error.

 

[Shishkabob]

What I'll contribute to this thread is-- the public doesn't know enough about us to know EMT vs Medic, but they CAN generally pick up on inexperience, which both levels can exhibit.



Having said that, this is not going to end well....

 

[PapaBear434]

Wow, why not just pour gasoline on your computer and set it on fire, for all the flames you're going to get.

First of all, if you are dying, you aren't going to have just EMT-B's on scene. ALS better be there, BLS is there for the added help.

As far as your typical accident goes, EMT-B's fresh out of class might be too inexperienced to run it, but after someone does their field time as a trainee, I would hope they wouldn't be released to operate on their own WITHOUT being comfortable. Most accidents and the minimal traumatic injuries incurred during most of them is more than in BLS's scope of practice and they should be more than capable of handling them.

I'm guessing by your attitude combined by your EMT-B status, you are fresh out of class and have aspirations to go to medic. That's fine. But don't be "that guy." Nobody likes that guy, and you will soon find yourself ostracized from every job you work and you won't figure out why no one wants to partner with you.

 

[PapaBear434]

Has anybody been in a car accident or some other trauma-related injury (or even been a medical patient, for that matter) and had EMT-Bs show up to the scene that seemed inexperienced?

I would hate to be dying and have someone who took a two week EMT crash course be working on me. With so little clinicals it seems like they just have to learn purely off of trial and error.

Oh, and that part right there. The two week "crash course" isn't really designed for someone with no medical training at all. Although EMT-B isn't all that hard or advanced, it's still a lot of information for your average person coming in cold. They are mostly designed for people who already have some measure of medical training, like a nurse, who wants to branch out into EMS and get the basics out of the way.

 

[MSDeltaFlt]

What I'll contribute to this thread is-- the public doesn't know enough about us to know EMT vs Medic, but they CAN generally pick up on inexperience, which both levels can exhibit.



Having said that, this is not going to end well....

Wow, why not just pour gasoline on your computer and set it on fire, for all the flames you're going to get.

First of all, if you are dying, you aren't going to have just EMT-B's on scene. ALS better be there, BLS is there for the added help.

As far as your typical accident goes, EMT-B's fresh out of class might be too inexperienced to run it, but after someone does their field time as a trainee, I would hope they wouldn't be released to operate on their own WITHOUT being comfortable. Most accidents and the minimal traumatic injuries incurred during most of them is more than in BLS's scope of practice and they should be more than capable of handling them.

I'm guessing by your attitude combined by your EMT-B status, you are fresh out of class and have aspirations to go to medic. That's fine. But don't be "that guy." Nobody likes that guy, and you will soon find yourself ostracized from every job you work and you won't figure out why no one wants to partner with you.

Yeah, this can't end well at all. We really don't want new people, especially those with fire and passion for our career field, to end up being "that guy".

 

[surname_levi]

you may want to call the fire dept. because basics wont be able to put out the flames that are going to start <_<

 

[vquintessence]

Has anybody been in a car accident or some other trauma-related injury (or even been a medical patient, for that matter) and had EMT-Bs show up to the scene that seemed inexperienced?

I would hate to be dying and have someone who took a two week EMT crash course be working on me. With so little clinicals it seems like they just have to learn purely off of trial and error.

Honestly, I'd be more concerned about a medical call with complicating factors being attended to by a "street medic" that specializes only in saline locks and ACLS algorithms.

It is impossible to understand where your question is coming from. However can offer some advice. Don't dismiss them (green providers) immediately. It will only worsen your own experience, no matter what the circumstances.

I won't pretend to know you, but I'll assume you wouldn't like some RN/PA/MD looking down their nose at you if you were to respond to their emergency? Play along to get along, and if you see something happening that you KNOW to be grossly negligent/dangerous, then offer some constructive criticism. After that, their response to your insight will be enough to know if you should take your complaints up their chain of command.

 

[el Murpharino]

I would rather have a Super EMT

Super EMT's: http://www.charlottesvillenewsplex.tv/news/headlines/49388377.html

Thread about it on this site: http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=13464

 

[Sasha]

Oh, and that part right there. The two week "crash course" isn't really designed for someone with no medical training at all.

Doesn't mean that only people with previous experience take it. There are plenty of people here who talk about taking a crash course. Two weeks? Maybe not, but a "crash course" none the less. Search EMT Boot Camp.

First of all, if you are dying, you aren't going to have just EMT-B's on scene. ALS better be there, BLS is there for the added help.

Some areas don't have ALS unless it comes from far away.

As far as your typical accident goes, EMT-B's fresh out of class might be too inexperienced to run it, but after someone does their field time as a trainee, I would hope they wouldn't be released to operate on their own WITHOUT being comfortable.

Depends on how long field training is in some areas. Some are a week, some a couple weeks, and I've heard horror stories of two days of field training. Anyone who is comfortable with EMS in two days is too cocky and probably doesn't know crap.

However, I agree. Everyone was new, don't look down your nose at them.

OP, when the fire starts remember to stop, drop, and roll.

 

[Sasha]

Btw papabear, I just realized it looks kinda like im picking at you, but I'm not, sorry!!

 

[wyoskibum]

I would take someone with even a little training over someone who doesn't have any training. Even if all they do is maintain c-spine and ABC's until more experience help arrives.

 

[djmedic913]

First of all, if you are dying, you aren't going to have just EMT-B's on scene. ALS better be there, BLS is there for the added help.

As far as your typical accident goes, EMT-B's fresh out of class might be too inexperienced to run it, but after someone does their field time as a trainee, I would hope they wouldn't be released to operate on their own WITHOUT being comfortable. Most accidents and the minimal traumatic injuries incurred during most of them is more than in BLS's scope of practice and they should be more than capable of handling them.

I'm guessing by your attitude combined by your EMT-B status, you are fresh out of class and have aspirations to go to medic. That's fine. But don't be "that guy." Nobody likes that guy, and you will soon find yourself ostracized from every job you work and you won't figure out why no one wants to partner with you.

Some areas don't have ALS. In a tiered system a standard MVC is dispatched at a Basic level. If we all recall from our Basic class practice scenarios, when we call for ALS back up, they hit a tree, hit a moose, get a flat tire, but never show up. So ALS is NOT always possible. We all have started out as inexperienced Basics. Where did we get the experience from? from doing calls. If we were lucky, after our initial field training, we were with an experienced person to help. But I know some of the volly squads in the middle of no where where the only 2 people to show up for an ambulance call were 2 people who just got their cards the day before and they are off.

Is a card good enough to start and hope someone shows up to help? What if there are no others responding? What if there is no one else to respond?

This argument we have had here before...I think under the Boot Camp thread. Not every area can afford full time medics....

I would take someone with even a little training over someone who doesn't have any training. Even if all they do is maintain c-spine and ABC's until more experience help arrives.

What if there is no one else able to respond?

I know I raised a bunch of "What If" questions, but they are scenarios.

The state say that if the person has a card they are qualified.
I know a lot of peoples feelings on that subject. We beat it to death. but if more was truly required that they would get their card yet.

besides...air goes in and out...blood goes round and round. In trauma other than IV's, what more is ALS truly gonna do.

 

[PapaBear434]

Doesn't mean that only people with previous experience take it. There are plenty of people here who talk about taking a crash course. Two weeks? Maybe not, but a "crash course" none the less. Search EMT Boot Camp.

At least with the EMT Boot Camp, they are submerged in the course all day, every day. It's not ideal, obviously, because you're not going to absorb as much. That said, you are right, some people not medically trained take the crash course. To be fair, a lot if not most of them fail the course from what I've seen

Some areas don't have ALS unless it comes from far away.

True, but at least there is someone with SOME medical training, even if it's only in how to move you without hurting you further and to know when to call in ALS or chopper support.

Depends on how long field training is in some areas. Some are a week, some a couple weeks, and I've heard horror stories of two days of field training. Anyone who is comfortable with EMS in two days is too cocky and probably doesn't know crap.

My field training in my department lasts three months to six months, depending on how good you are and how fast you can get your book signed off. Your FTO also has to sign off when they feel comfortable with you, and not before. We also have a huge call volume, averaging about 8 calls per 12 hour shift, so we get plenty of field time before they just let you loose.

I guess I would be nervous with a system that releases someone after two days, but your average person wouldn't know unless that person was so inept that it was obvious.

 

[PapaBear434]

Some areas don't have ALS. In a tiered system a standard MVC is dispatched at a Basic level. If we all recall from our Basic class practice scenarios, when we call for ALS back up, they hit a tree, hit a moose, get a flat tire, but never show up. ...

You are looking for the worst case scenario and pretending it's the norm. Most area will have SOME sort of ALS at least available for calls should the basics on scene say something.

In any case, my issue wasn't with your objection to lax standards. My problem was with your attitude that seemed to call all basics a bunch of nubs that you spoke about with a form of superiority to. I'm a medic student, and techically ALS (low level ALS as it may be), but I am pretty damned determined to NOT become the medic that looks down on basics just because they are lower trained than me. As far as I'm concerned, Basics take the appropriately named "basic calls" and free up the medics for the more important, urgent, life threatening calls.

Everyone helps, and getting all smug about one's superiority does nothing to help.

 

[VentMedic]

What I'll contribute to this thread is-- the public doesn't know enough about us to know EMT vs Medic, but they CAN generally pick up on inexperience, which both levels can exhibit.

Don't make a generalized statement about all the "public". With the many tax reform issues that have been placed on ballots throughout this country, the Public is becoming quite informed in some areas as to what their tax dollars are paying for.

In Florida, they know the level they will get is ALS with Paramedics. When there is an issue on the ballot they are told the differences in level of care. This comes not only from the FDs but also the County EMS systems such as Lee. They also know EMTs exist if you need transport. And that are the only two levels we have in the state.

In CA I've seen numerous public service anouncements as well as at almost every public even some EMS agency is promoting their importance which also includes the levels of care which is usually ALS with Paramedics. However, again, for CA tjhe certs are primarily EMT, Paramedic or an MICN if CCT is required. There is not an EMT-A-B-C-D-E or Super EMT to muddy the waters.

Unfortunately there are still many areas that have only BLS ambulances for 911 emergencies. Sometimes the public they serve are told if they upgraded to ALS, they could get some big city corporation with people who don't understand them and won't give them that hometown touch. For some just a ride to a hospital is fine.

 

[wyoskibum]

What if there is no one else able to respond?

I know I raised a bunch of "What If" questions, but they are scenarios

When it is your time, it is your time. I will take whatever help I can get. Someone with some training and little experience is still preferable to someone with no training and experience. If I live or die, hopefully they will learn from the experience.

 

[djmedic913]

You are looking for the worst case scenario and pretending it's the norm. Most area will have SOME sort of ALS at least available for calls should the basics on scene say something.

In any case, my issue wasn't with your objection to lax standards. My problem was with your attitude that seemed to call all basics a bunch of nubs that you spoke about with a form of superiority to. I'm a medic student, and techically ALS (low level ALS as it may be), but I am pretty damned determined to NOT become the medic that looks down on basics just because they are lower trained than me. As far as I'm concerned, Basics take the appropriately named "basic calls" and free up the medics for the more important, urgent, life threatening calls.

Everyone helps, and getting all smug about one's superiority does nothing to help.

I was not disagreeing with you about the "looking down" on Basics. I respect them and enjoy working with them. I was a Basic once. Hell, I was even a 1st responder and I have never forgotten that. I remember where I came from. I try and talk with new Basics (or I's or even new medics) as often as I can to help them out. Most agency don't truly help a new person or new level to succeed. you get plenty of medics that get mad at new ppl for lack of experience, but the only reason that seasoned, experienced medic has gotten that was because they started as an inexperienced basic...but alas they forget.

this part of education. helping the new ppl instead of intimidating them. if we help to mold them into the provider we would want to work with, they should a provider that anyone would want to work with. The standards I set for myself are the only standards I can go by.

But we need to help the new ppl and guided them to make them better and stronger and more confident providers. This will help you out, the atient and EMS in general...