"Freelancing" : get this through your heads. (Rant, right?)

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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(One benefit of lurking is the ability to surface and let loose a salvo once in a while. Especially about things that drove you underground in the first place).

Despite any protestations and self-confident exclamations to the contrary, EMT and paramedics (who ARE in many ways legally equal to EMTs and originally were called "EMT-Paramedics") cannot go around practicing their dark arts on people. Nope, sorry, check your sources.

Besides the fact that probably in most cases those C-collars and oxygen cylinders are "borrowed" (stolen) from a licensed provider, there are three obstacles which are insurmountable: the needs for INSURANCE, PROTOCOLS, and MEDICAL OVERSIGHT/CONTROL.

Probably there is no legal requirement for "freelancing" insurance (since the law doesn't recognize freelancing/freestanding medical technicians) but without it you could lose every stitch and stick if someone sues you. Maybe jail time. Look at murder, manslaughter, assault and battery, maiming, false arrest, kidnapping, drug offenses, possession of illegal hypodermics and other devices. I bet you cannot find an insurer who will sell it to you AS a freelancer, or not without provisions which will let them keep your money and not pay out a nickel if you get sued doing that.

So you can remember and use your company's protocols? Are you absolutely sure? Don't they change once in a while? Are these protocols universal between all companies? Are they perfectly clear? No, because they are literally a MD's orders written generically for his or her company's employees when they come upon this or that set of circumstances. (As in "If you see ABC,. then you can do 123"). Protocols are not like the various measures used to figure out if a doctor's actions are reasonable or not. They may be in accordance with guidelines from EMSA or the Feds or whomever, but they reside between the Director and his employer, the company or service.

And that pesky medical director person is the one who DOES decide if what you are doing is OK and can help defend your treatments when someone thinks they are not reasonable, hence becoming actionable. Warns you when there is trouble. Tells the boss when specialized or new training is required.

So please raise the level of discussions by letting go of this "single combat versus Death" thing. If you want to act like a doctor, become one. Being a tech lets you do many things more than a layperson does without very much more preparation and legal responsibility if you follow the rules, but that is all. Enjoy it, don't screw it up.
 

Carlos Danger

Forum Deputy Chief
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I know I can be obtuse at times, but I have no idea what this means.
 

Mariemt

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He is actually answering someone's thread about legal advice in a round about way
 

ExpatMedic0

MS, NRP
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Correct me if I am wrong here, but if you get permission from your medical director to be a first-aid guy on the side lines at your sons high school football matches, and have no medical equipment with you other than say... bandages and a cell phone.... I don't see it as much of a concern. Of course if you patient assessment includes medically releasing players back onto the field... I can see the legal concerns....

I think it starts becoming more of a risky grey area when someone represents themselves as a licensed or certified pre-hospital provider with out permission from the medical director and with out agency affiliation
 

ExpatMedic0

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Yes I suppose your right
 

All Ryle Dup

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Guess I should have posted here instead of the volunteer-EMT-"medic"-thread.

I agree with the OP.

Once again- an EMT cert is a certification. It is not a license to practice medicine. Refer to your Basic book- probably chapter one stuff. Sheesh, I know EMTs etc that can barely do effective CPR at work or create a decent seal to ventilate via BVM, let alone go off playing superhero off duty.

You will get sued if things go sour. You will lose your certification if things go sour. You will certainly get blamed if things to sour. You may go to jail if things go sour. You may have other civil/criminal fines/charges against you. It is an unfortunate balance between ethics and legality. And legally- it is a no-go.

Obviously, you risk your own butt, and every rule has its exception. I'm talking about freelancing, not doing what you can for your own ill/injured family at home.
 

All Ryle Dup

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Also, nobody likes a "Ricky Rescue"
 
OP
OP
mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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Guess I should have posted here instead of the volunteer-EMT-"medic"-thread.

I agree with the OP.

Once again- an EMT cert is a certification. It is not a license to practice medicine. Refer to your Basic book- probably chapter one stuff. Sheesh, I know EMTs etc that can barely do effective CPR at work or create a decent seal to ventilate via BVM, let alone go off playing superhero off duty.

You will get sued if things go sour. You will lose your certification if things go sour. You will certainly get blamed if things to sour. You may go to jail if things go sour. You may have other civil/criminal fines/charges against you. It is an unfortunate balance between ethics and legality. And legally- it is a no-go.

Obviously, you risk your own butt, and every rule has its exception. I'm talking about freelancing, not doing what you can for your own ill/injured family at home.

Besides being sued, which some brush off saying "I value life over being sued", when things go sour patients die or are disabled. OR, the rescuer gets sick or injured.
 

All Ryle Dup

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Besides being sued, which some brush off saying "I value life over being sued", when things go sour patients die or are disabled. OR, the rescuer gets sick or injured.

Indeed, and perhaps the most important reason.
I touched on that in another thread. Good catch Mycrofft.
 

NomadicMedic

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This really seems to only be an issue with newbies... the ones that pass an EMT class and want a "kit for the POV, just in case" or want to know about oxygen for their car... or, its somebody with a "superhero mentality". The people who carry a Hi-Viz vest and radio and stop at every MVA they see.

In my experience, these people are flushed out quickly.

In most cases, professional EMS workers get enough of the job on the job, and don't see any reason to freelance. And if they do, it's on them.

Remember, we don't offer any legal advice on this forum. If you ever have any question about operating as a medical provider at any place OUTSIDE of your employment, seek guidance from medical direction, risk management and if needed, an attorney.
 

All Ryle Dup

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This really seems to only be an issue with newbies...

In most cases, professional EMS workers get enough of the job on the job, and don't see any reason to freelance.

Agree, new guys tend to be the ones who also jump the gun and provide inappropriate treatment as well, which is why this is such a dangerous predicament.

Semi agree on the vets in the game who get their fill on the clock. Some guys in a slower or rural system may be eager to do something they should not be doing. Also, I've met some guys that are wayyyy over zealous. Obviously, the only thing that will convince them it's not a good idea is when they get theirselves in trouble.

Either way I hope this thread will plant that seed in the heads of some newer or over zealous EMTs/Medics. Putting the information out there was a good idea, credit to the OP. I know it wasn't really discussed in detail in my original education.
 
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xrsm002

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Some services I've worked for in Texas their protocols covered us off duty however we could do BLS care, but if we wanted to do ALS care we had to contact med control, even if we were out of our service area, we were still covered.
 

Mariemt

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I am allowed to provide care in my town or in my area for preapproved events or if I see an accident etc. If I am in our coverage area I am covered under our insurance and must act within my scope of practice and under our protocols. Freelancing? No no
 

Wily

Forum Ride Along
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Despite my username here, I would never do anything but offer basic support if I happened to stumble across an arrest or other such situation until the on-duty emt gets there. Hero-complexes can certainly lead to bad outcomes and give ems a bad rep.
 

Ace 227

Forum Lieutenant
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In most cases, professional EMS workers get enough of the job on the job, and don't see any reason to freelance.

This. Unless I'm driving passed the once in a lifetime bus full of hemophiliacs in to a razor factory, I'm most likely not going to stop. Anyone who has worked in 911 for a while has gotten a call with the ricky rescue/doctor/nurse/retired paramedic already on scene and offering assistance. Short of what a lay person could do, they're essentially useless. I'm not trying to be that guy.
 

AmboRambo

Forum Ride Along
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He is actually answering someone's thread about legal advice in a round about way

Hi,

I think I am the person you are referring to and to clarify, I'm new to this site and EMS didn't realize I was asking for legal advice when I wrote that post. I searched the site for a few minutes and then posted.

A moderator contacted me and informed me about the policy and some people sent me private messages with really helpful information. So in other words I believe the site worked exactly like it it's intended to and i'm thankful to everyone I interacted with.

I am still curious about what I will call the medical standby or first responder business for lack of better terms. There appear to be many private individuals and small organizations using their EMS experience and certifications to promote themselves as first responders for various types of events.

And judging by their websites there appears to be a low barrier of entry to this type of business or service.

Maybe distinguishing and separating freelancer from first responder from EMT, Medic and so on is where more clarity is. Maybe not, i don't know but I am going to do some more research on my own.
 
OP
OP
mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
48
48
This really seems to only be an issue with newbies... the ones that pass an EMT class and want a "kit for the POV, just in case" or want to know about oxygen for their car... or, its somebody with a "superhero mentality". The people who carry a Hi-Viz vest and radio and stop at every MVA they see.

In my experience, these people are flushed out quickly.

In most cases, professional EMS workers get enough of the job on the job, and don't see any reason to freelance. And if they do, it's on them.

Remember, we don't offer any legal advice on this forum. If you ever have any question about operating as a medical provider at any place OUTSIDE of your employment, seek guidance from medical direction, risk management and if needed, an attorney.

ok, we hear you
 
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