Erectile Drug Led to Teen's Death

[Sasha]

Erectile Drug Led to Teen's Death
Full Article:

ORINDA, Cal. (July 23) -- After 16-year-old Joseph Loudon died after a house party on May 23, investigators were not surprised to find alcohol in his blood. What did surprise them was high levels of papaverine -- a prescription medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.

Police are still trying to determine whether the teen was taking the drug deliberately or had it slipped to him in a drink, perhaps as a prank, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

In any case, the combination of the alcohol and papaverine caused Loudon to throw up. He subsequently choked to death on his own vomit, according to findings by Contra Costa County coroner.

That is a new one, never considered ED drugs as something you'd have to worry about showing up in your drink or your kid doing it recreationally. Poor kid.

 

[VentMedic]

It will be interesting to know where he got it.

Another article with a picture.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/22/MN1218S35E.DTL

We occasionally use papaverine in the NICU and PICU for UAC and PALs to relax spasms within the artery.

PAL - Peripheral Arterial Lines

UAC - Umbilical Arterial Catheter

NICU - Neonatal ICU

PICU - Pediatric ICU

 

[Aidey]

Nearly any medication in a high enough level, especially mixed with alcohol can cause nausea and vomiting. That is nothing special. Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.

/rant

 

[CAOX3]

Nearly any medication in a high enough level, especially mixed with alcohol can cause nausea and vomiting. That is nothing special. Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.

/rant

Thats like saying cocaine didnt kill them the the massive MI did.

 

[VentMedic]

I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this.
/rant

No one has said Paverine is a bad drug. If you read the article I posted, it tells the many uses for the drug besides what I have listed.

But, you have already got a defense ready for the supplier of this med when he/she is caught.

This is not a med you would have normally have in your bathroom cabinet at home without a perscription. It is very dangerous to have someone supplying drugs at these parties who may be clueless about what they even are. Giving any drug with alcohol is of course very dangerous so I would not be lenient toward the one(s) supplying these drugs just because it may not have been the direct cause of death. Kids have to know the consequences of taking illegal drugs or perscription meds that aren't prescibed to them. It may have been a significant contributing factor to this young person's death.

 

[Aidey]

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all Vent, and I know that it, and other ED meds have other uses besides ED. It's more of an issue with how the article is written and the subtle sensationalism worked into it.

 

[VentMedic]

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all Vent, and I know that it, and other ED meds have other uses besides ED. It's more of an issue with how the article is written and the subtle sensationalism worked into it.

Unfortunately in the SF Bay area where this occured, a dead 16 year old is not really headlines anymore. At least with that title, some might actually read the article to see what is going on in their own backyards. Many in the suburbs, which is what Orinda is, would just glance at an article about a dead kid as just another gang or "regular" drug death. This makes some take notice that it can happen in their own neighborhoods also and where people are more likely to have prescription meds lying around.

 

[minneola24]

Shouldn't have been drinking in the first place...

 

[timmy84]

We get teenagers in the ER/on the floor all the time for taking pills that they thought were something else. You might be surprised at what these kids will take, and they always think it is safer than "doing drugs". Very sad.

 

[usafmedic45]

Asphyxia killed the kid, not the drug. I hate it when meds are blamed in cases like this. Yes it was a contributory factor, but it wasn't the medication itself that did it.

Thank you....you beat me to pointing that out.

Thats like saying cocaine didnt kill them the the massive MI did.

Have you ever seen the autopsy report/death certificate of someone who died of a cocaine-induced MI? It doesn't sound like it. The death would be listed as "due to acute myocardial infarction with acute cocaine intoxication as contributory to the death". Normally you also see "atherosclerotic coronary vascular disease" listed alongside since there is usually a moderate to significant level of ASCVD present in these cases. Technically they did not die from the cocaine and died from an MI so technically that is correct. In order to state someone died from the effect of a drug you have to rule out absolutely that there is no reasonable medical doubt that they would not have died from the events in the absence of the medication. In this case, it is likely the kid would not have died without the presence of the drug, but then again, he could have vomited and aspirated without the drug in his system. As a former deputy coroner, I would have listed the death as "due to asphyxia secondary to aspiration of gastric contents with alcohol and paperavine intoxication contributory to the death."

 

[VentMedic]

Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing. But does that excuse easy access to these drugs? Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street? Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death?

Give me a freakin' break!! Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile? Do you know how many die without headlines?

To put your heads up your arses and ignore the seriousness of these situations is becoming all too familiar especially with some in EMS. Please don't give me "the street makes you calloused BS" because I don't buy that.

Why are you blowing off the seriousness of kids drinking and combining drugs? This is something one will see as an EMT(P) and hopefully they won't have to see the death certificate. This is a good article to inform everyone what is out there to make EMT(P)s, including those who are parents, more aware. A death certificate is something NO parent wants to see with their child's name on it. That is especially true for those in EMS with kids.

 

[minneola24]

Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing. But does that excuse easy access to these drugs? Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street? Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death?

Give me a freakin' break!! Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile? Do you know how many die without headlines?

To put your heads up your arses and ignore the seriousness of these situations is becoming all too familiar especially with some in EMS. Please don't give me "the street makes you calloused BS" because I don't buy that.

Why are you blowing off the seriousness of kids drinking and combining drugs? This is something one will see as an EMT(P) and hopefully they won't have to see the death certificate. This is a good article to inform everyone what is out there to make EMT(P)s, including those who are parents, more aware. A death certificate is something NO parent wants to see with their child's name on it. That is especially true for those in EMS with kids.

I'm in high school and during school I see kids smokin/drinking "doin' what they do" every day. Between a combination of their stupidity and the sheriffs laziness they drive right past the area where it goes down. Then when I go in the office I see the school sheriff crackin' jokes with the receptionist.

The reason why kids do it is because they think its cool, I mean during class I'll over hear some kids talking about how drunk they got over the weekend and how much crap they smoked and they all laugh about it talking about how "crazy" so and so was.

Might I add I never seen any non-smoking campaign happen at my school or any drug-free events.

 

[usafmedic45]

Yeah most of us get the drug vs cause of death thing.

Yes, but at least one of the people in this forum didn't seem to get it. Hence why I said what I said.

But does that excuse easy access to these drugs?

Did I say it did?

Should parents not be aware of how their own drugs can turn up on the street?

Of course they should.

Are we excusing this behavior because you don't like the way the paper worded the cause of death?

Can you come down off the cross? I really don't feel like shouting and I don't have ready access to the forum's ladder since the mods aren't hear to unlock the garage for me.

Do you know how many kids we see even on a slow weekend to get an NGT with maybe some charcoal and maybe a ventilator for awhile?

Uh, remember who you're talking to. I do the same job you do (hell, I even used to fly as an RT).

Do you know how many die without headlines?

I probably have an even better idea than you since I used to deal with the ones who never made it off the scene alive (or under attempted resuscitation).

To put your heads up your arses and ignore the seriousness of these situations is becoming all too familiar especially with some in EMS.

Why are you blowing off the seriousness of kids drinking and combining drugs?

Like I said, less hyperbole and a little less vitriole might be called for here since I don't think anyone is saying it's not a major issue. I know you get passionate about your work- like we all do- but for crying out loud, there is such a thing as excessive backlash simply because you think you're a bigger person because you can make a more pointed argument for something that we already agree on. Save the browbeating for things where there is actual disagreement (helicopter safety, field intubation, etc). Picking fights simply to pick fights is beneath you Venty....

 

[VentMedic]

So you want to distract from a decent topic to make it about you?

Some of us do deal with these issues practically on a daily bases. Sorry if they don't make up to your standard of a good topic. Dead kids are usually not much fun but there are things that can be learned here.

Did you not even bother to look at the post before you went off on a tangent? We do have some young members here who are interested in this topic. Get you ego in check and you might even learn something.

I probably have an even better idea than you since I used to deal with the ones who never made it off the scene alive (or under attempted resuscitation).

30 years as a Paramedic. How many do you think I saw at scene? You haven't been alive as long as I've been in EMS. It is just that as an RRT I got to see those the can not be fully counted as saves.

 

[VentMedic]

Might I add I never seen any non-smoking campaign happen at my school or any drug-free events.

We used to be in the schools alot more both as EMS and as RN/RRTs. Budget cuts have hurt alot of programs.

 

[minneola24]

We used to be in the schools alot more both as EMS and as RN/RRTs. Budget cuts have hurt alot of programs.

Yeah I remember back in elementary school the fire truck came and showed us what to do in case of a fire and even let us spray some of the weak hoses.

But to be honest, kids can be drug-free if they want to, they are just acting stupid and want to become more popular in front of their piers so they do what they gotta do. But if they were smart enough they would stay away from the stuff, its not hard at all, I did it and have been in high school for 2 years now.

Oh well, this stuff is just going to keep happening, you just have to choose your friends carefully... all I got to say.

 

[Sasha]

Shouldn't have been drinking in the first place...

Certainly you are not implying that he deserved what he got for drinking?? Perhaps it's must me, but it sounds like you are justifying his death.

 

[minneola24]

Certainly you are not implying that he deserved what he got for drinking?? Perhaps it's must me, but it sounds like you are justifying his death.

Nah I wouldn't say he deserved what he got, no one does. What I am saying is why is he going to party where alcohol is being served?

 

[usafmedic45]

So you want to distract from a decent topic to make it about you?

I would have preferred to have handled this like adults through PMs like we were doing until you posted this public attempt at character assassination.

Some of us do deal with these issues practically on a daily bases.

The pronoun you're looking for there is "we". You know, as in the cumulative of "you and I"? Like I said, we do the same job so no need to speak as though you're the only one on here who sees patients who are not "obvious saves" when they wind up on vents in the hospital.

Sorry if they don't make up to your standard of a good topic.

Never said that....I just never been a fan of public health education en masse and leave it to those who have a passion for it such as yourself.

Dead kids are usually not much fun but there are things that can be learned here.

If I was looking for fun topics, I would not be hanging around an EMS forums at all. Most of the topics we discuss are not exactly what I would call "fun". As for something to be learned, I agree. However, like I said, when it comes to the juveniles amongst us, I'll leave it to people with a drive to educate them to do the teaching unless I have no other choice.

Did you not even bother to look at the post before you went off on a tangent?

Which one? The one after yours? Yes, but I figured I would address your off topic post separately. I was too busy trying to respond to your attack on me.

We do have some young members here who are interested in this topic.

Then carry on....I was simply correcting another misconception that you didn't bother to address (the issue of how someone dies) and leaving you to your own area of interest. Your comment about it not being a topic of your liking not meaning it is not worth discussing cuts both directions.

Get you ego in check and you might even learn something.

Not even going to honor such a disrespectful comment with a response.

30 years as a Paramedic. How many do you think I saw at scene? You haven't been alive as long as I've been in EMS. It is just that as an RRT I got to see those the can not be fully counted as saves.

Did I say I had anywhere near the experience level in years that you do? The point was you don't ever see the ones who are so obviously dead that the only people who seem them in our spectrum are the LEOs and coroners. That is what I was getting at. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[usafmedic45]

What I am saying is why is he going to party where alcohol is being served?

Bad judgment, ignorance, peer pressure, inadequate parental supervision....any or all of those are possible contributors.

Oh well, this stuff is just going to keep happening, you just have to choose your friends carefully... all I got to say.

I tend to agree, but also happen to be a firm believer in the old Edmund Burke saying about all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to stand idle and do nothing. That is what VentMedic is trying to get at....educational programs may help a little, it may help a lot or it may have no effect at all (or actually do more harm than good if done exceedingly poorly according to some theorists), but you still have to try your best. As she said, the budget cuts have been a major issue for a lot of the programs especially the ones most likely to make a dent.