EMT-Basic: Is 120 hours enough?

JPINFV

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People have been complaining that I'm too harsh with my criticisms of EMT-B training and education. As a preface, let me say that critiquing a level is different than critiquing a person. Saying that x level is undereducated for what they do is criticism of the system, not any one person. If you feel personally injured because you're a basic and disagree with me, then let me apologize in advance, it's not personal. Furthermore, let me put out that policies, rules, procedures, and protocols must target the lowest common denominator, not the best and brightest. There can not be one treatment standard for EMT-Bs from one course and a completely different standard for EMT-Bs from a different course.

Is 120 hours enough? I say no. EMS personal work in an acute system away from many of the safeguards that are found in the hospital. Many times, there are no extra providers on scene [versus, say, a hospital. There isn't a pharmacy to discuss medications with, there isn't an RT to assist managing respiratory problems, there are no physicians on scene] as there is in a hospital. Yes, we do have "protocols" [which, in a representative number of systems, are guidelines and suggestions, not cookbook treatment plans] and online medical control [mostly, though there are exceptions though]. Even with online medical control, a provider has to have the education and training to understand what needs to be communicated to the base hospital. The provider must be able to operate, at the very least, as an interface between the physician and the patient, the proverbial hands and eyes.

So, I ask again, in a system like this, is 110 hours, give or take, enough? When 99% of medical scenarios in a given training class can be answered, regardless of the complaint, with a stock reply of "high flow O2 [15 LPM, of course, because the National Registry, whose tests are based off of the DOT standards, thinks that 120 hours isn't enough to decide between high and low flow, or even 10 LPM and 15], call someone else [paramedic intercept], position of comfort, and transport immediately" are we, as providers, really helping patients? Now it should be noted that treatment 'stops' not because there's nothing else the patient might need, but simply because the provider is out of options.

Let's look at the drugs that EMT-Bs can administer based on their assessment under DOT training standards [so no pre-prescribed "patient assist" drugs]. The drugs are simply oxygen, activated charcoal, and oral glucose. Some systems have expanded their scope of practice and protocols for EMT-Basics to include narcan, nitro, albuterol, and/or epinephrine for anaphylaxis shock (based on the EMT-B's assessment and judgement, not based on a patient's prior prescription for the medication), but these systems are hardly representative of EMS as a whole. The entire required pharmacology education and training for EMT-Bs [note: This includes patient assist medications] is one hour long. Is 1 hour honestly long enough to understand the what, why, and how of how oxygen is used by the body? The answer is no.

"Surely," you ask [and don't call me Shirley], "normal body functions is covered in depth during the A/P portion of the course?" Well, let's look at that, in terms of hours. The "Human Body" section required by US DOT is a only 2.5 hours long. Again, this is for all of the physiology and anatomy for the entire course. Therefore I put forth that the knowledge base required for EMT-Bs, especially since most courses don't require prerequisites such as anatomy and physiology, that the rest of the training is built around is woefully weak.


Now let's look at what EMT-Bs can do again for medical patients before they start circling the drain. We can use oxygen, glucose, and activated charcoal. Glucose can't be used in patients who are unable to maintain their own airways and activated charcoal is only useful in patients who ingested poison. Therefore, the only useful medication in the majority of medical patients that EMT-Bs can administer is oxygen. Even then, EMT-B education as it currently stands is woefully inadequate in even educating providers on how that drug is used by the body. If I, or a loved one, ever need emergency, I'd hope that the provider would be able to do something to reverse the cause of the emergency then engage in a mere stop-gap procedure.

Therefore, I propose that the 110 hours required by the DOT for EMT-Basics should be increased substantially. 2 hours of anatomy and physiology and another hour of pharmacology is not sufficient to warrant increasing our scope of practice drastically, considering that the current education is not sufficient for understanding what our current procedures and assessments are telling us.

Comments? Does anyone think that the current amount of education required of EMT-Bs is sufficient for practice in an uncontrolled environment? Furthermore, how do you reconcile the fact that parts of Canadia require their entry level worker to have a 2 year degree instead of 110 hours?
 

firecoins

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The need for vollie systems requires volunteers. So the course has been somewhat washed down.

A&P is not really covered in EMT class. At least not sufficently. As a medic we take A&P I and II, 2 semesters outside of medic class. EMTs really should do the same.
 

Ridryder911

EMS Guru
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Well let's put in perspective. The EMT anatomy is the same length of 2 and a half American Idol shows, and the EMT Course is basically one season of Gilligan's Island.

Yes the course is long enough for what it is should be. First responder/first-aid course. Is it long enough for delivery of emergency care ? NO. It is Not even long enough to begin with.

I will challenge anyone to prove differently. Now with that perceptive, why is it so many volunteer organizations protest increasing length of courses and increasing training? If we all agree it is sub-par? Again, most of it is back to ego's and tradition not for the benefit of the patient.

What would we say if Police, Fire or even some form medical licensed professionals refused to increase their knowledge and provide better services? Truthfully it is shameful and embarrassing that we do not have more an outcry. Yet, look around on how many EMS personnel would actually want to increase the requirements. Just read on how boisterious the comments are that they attended a nighttime 150 hour course. Heck, my class on patient's spiritual needs was longer than that.

So one should understand why peers of those in EMS (nurses, respiratory therapist, even ultra sound tech.'s) do not glamorize the length of an EMT course. If one examines the core curriculum and even the skills taught, it still is still rated a nominal and a beginner course. Again the reason the wording Basic is emphasized. It is not degrading, just it is what it is.

So many describe the EMT course as difficult and this is usually because it is one's first exposure to any medical training at all. If one evaluates the over all pass rate of EMT programs and tests, one can see that it has a large drop out rate and low fail rate from those that do graduate and take the certification test. Again, this is in comparison to other medical board test.

The Basic definitely has a role. It is that role that has to be redefined.

R/r 911
 
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LucidResq

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My EMT course is 238 hours. I agree with you, 120 hours is not enough. However, I think many of the skills that should be learned for someone to become an excellent care provider can only be learned while actually providing care, so although I think 120 hours is a little short, I don't think more classroom time is necessarily the answer.

I think there has to be intrinsic motivation for someone to want to make that extra effort to become excellent also. With many people you could spend a year teaching them a&p, test them on it 5 times, and once they know they won't be tested on it again they'll forget every freakin' thing they "learned".

Someone has to be motivated from within to go above and beyond. I wouldn't feel comfortable treating people if I didn't know anything about the body or if I didn't know what all those big words meant, so I took anatomy and phys and medical terminology before I took my EMT class.

Basically, some people will know that they need to give someone oxygen because that's what the textbook said and that's what they were tested on. Others will give someone oxygen because they understand the physiological process of their acute disease and know how it can be treated.
 

Kazz

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I beleive the one im taking (NYS) is 180-200 somthing hours long? I know for a fact were spending 6 hours on pediatrics and 6 on drugs.
 

Outbac1

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WOW, 110 hours, thats all?? I knew an US EMT-B course had less time than a Canadian Primary Care Paramedic course. But didn't realize it was so little. That explains a lot of the EMT-B questions here. The background training just isn't there.
I took my PCP in 2001 when our new National Occupational Competency Profile (NOCP) was brand new. (For more info on the NOCP see the Paramedic Association of Canada website www.paramedic.ca) The total course was 10 months. Included was 60 hours of A&P, and 90 hours of pathophysiology. This time did not include one minute of hands on skill. There were of course numerous other subjects and lab,(hands on ) time. Then about 100 hours of hospitial clinical and 264 hours of preceptored ride time in an ambulance. Ride time has since gone up to 504 hours. I think my total course was 1200 hours and cost with tuition, books and uniforms about $12,000.00.
For the most part in Canada we don't have private health care. It is all government run and tax dollar paid for. That doesn't mean everything is free or we have a perfect system because we don't. We have our share of problems.
Each province operates its health care differently. Here in Nova Scotia we now have one provider of ground and air ambulance service. All trucks are equipped the same and we have standard protocols province wide. I invite you to look at our provincial web site for more info. www.gov.ns.ca/ehs/
Nova Scotia is almost as big as West Virgina and about half its population. We are about 21,000 sq miles and 950,000 people.
Its been a long time coming because about 14 years ago all you needed here was a two week Emergency Medical Assistant course and you were good to go. There were about 50 private operators then, all of whom were bought up by the government and a single private operator hired to run the ambulance service. The public is much better served now.
Our neighbouring province New Brunswick is just now starting to emulate us. The private operators are now gone and a single operator is running the province since Dec/07. What a co-incidence it is another company owned by the company that operates Nova Scotia. Hopefully they can be brought up to speed quicker. It just costs money.
Everyone who works in N.B. who is not up to PCP standard must get educated to PCP within three years or they are out of a job.
Just some comments on what is going on north of the border.
 
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TKO

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Do you still have EMRs in NS? We have EMRs working in BC, some remote stations are still entirely EMR operated (relying on local clinics). Not much for ACPs in most parts, so PCPs have a lot more drugs and protocols than other provinces....we're getting Morphine and ETT soon too, and advanced cardiac is being reviewed.

EMRs here are educated in 12 days x 8 hrs = 96 hrs. They are basically the equivalent of an EMT-B, they need their first aid and CPR before they can start their EMR course. I think the EMR course needs more time behind it too, but everyone has to do a six month probation of riding 3rd (well, PCPs generally get through that much quicker).
 

lcbjr3000

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Ive been working as an Emt-b for one year. I feel that after the course I was not well enough prepared for work as an emt. I was hired before i started the classes and was told that afterwords there would be a month of OJT. I worked as a third member of the crew and watched and learned how the classroom translated into the real world. You can only run so many scenarios but until you actually see it, it doesnt seem to sink in. I slowly began to do assesments and other skills required of the emt-b and then before i knew it I was working as a crew memeber. Personally I feel I learned more with OJT however if not for the foundation that was provided in the classroom i would have been lost. If there were a way to keep the classroom time the same, but add clinicals and internships like the paramedic program im in does then I think we will begin to produce emt-b that are more prepared to step into their role and be excellent healt care providers.
 

Ridryder911

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Unfortunately U.S. has dropped the ball. We might have started the game but realistically nothing has changed much in the past 30 years. Sure, we have some new toys and treatment modalities that might have changed somewhat but as a systems it has became stagnant.

In comparison of those from the North Border and those from below in Australia and parts of Africa we are negligent in upgrading our system. Sure we are more advanced than some third countries, we can develop a wireless tracking system for our pizza yet not all communities have 911. Physicians can review ultrasound from a flying helicopter to triage to go to surgery, yet 20 miles away a patient awaits for a volunteer first aid squad to gather and then go to their house with the best treatment available is an aspirin and oxygen. Anyone else see a problem here?

Unfortunately EMT's are not educated about the system they work in. So many assume EMS is just about ambulances and fail to recognize prehospital care is just one small part of the system. EMT's usually do not care about professional development, system analysis, research and development. Rather they are concerned about how many lights and scanners can one plug into the auto without blowing a fuse. Don't believe me, read the posts.

We wonder why we are treated the way we are? In the words of Dr Phil.."people treat you they way you expect them too".. so what do we expect? The manicurist attends a longer course to cut your toenails than an EMT attends their course... and we expect what?

R/r 911
 

VentMedic

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I find it very difficult to teach an EMT-B class or even the refresher. There is so much more I want to explain, demonstrate or have the students see for their clinicals, yet there is not enough time. The other factor is the way the time allowed is structured. Yes, ride time is important but so is patient contact. I would like to see more assessment skills perfected on actual patients in a controlled environment. I would like students to be proficient at the skills they do learn like BPs, breath sounds and respiratory patterns so they can be applied under more environmentally unfriendly situations like the back of a truck with sirens blasting or in a house with 10 family members yelling at you.

I would also like to see more infection control, bloodborne pathogens, legislative, ethics and HIPAA updates added to the refreshers. I don't believe time should be spent for a State Refresher reviewing basic A&P or skills that should be already be monitored as competencies by the training officers of the companies.
 

LucidResq

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I definitely agree with you VentMedic. The EMT course is so focused on assess, load and go, people don't realize how many other factors are at play. I had a basic background on infection control, BSI, HIPAA, medical terminology, anatomy and phys, and communications before I started my EMT class and it makes me worried that we went over it all so briefly that we only needed 3 class periods to cover all of that.

I'm really glad that one of my clinicals is spending an 8-hour shift doing nothing by vitals with the triage nurse and a level 1. I look forward to it, because I know that right now I would hate to imagine a patient truly relying on my ability to take an accurate blood pressure or find a pedal pulse. It's a skill that needs to be practiced often and on a wide range of people in a wide range of situations.
 

TheAfterAffect

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All im going to say on this is that 120 might not be enough, but I know at my Squad your a Probie for about a year so thats kinda more hands on training time towards you.
 

Outbac1

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To answer TKO. Yes we have EMR's. But they are called MFR's ( medical first responder not emergency medical responder). Is there another way we can mix up the alphabet to say the same thing so we can become more confused? Our MFR's are volunteer, mostly with fire depts. and may be first on scene to provide initial care. Some depts. operate that they go to all code 1 medical calls and others at paramedics request. For us we only have two codes. Code 1 is with lights and siren and code 2 without. They have about two weeks of training, can start an assessment, give O2, take a bgl and give oral glucose. I'll have to check to see if they can give ASA and nitro. They also extracate backboard and collar. They do NOT transport.
We are getting more ACP's as more medics upgrade but they are still scarce in the rural areas. At our base we have 26 medics. 10 ACP, 9 PCP, 7 ICP. The ICP was a stopgap measure from about 10 years ago to get als when there were few ACP's. They can do IV's, intubate dead people, give morpine and valium, and in an arrest give epi, atropine, and lidocaine.That's about it. The province stopped registering ICP's about 6 years ago. So there are no new ones. The only exception is if an American EMT-P wants to get registered here they will temporally register them as an ICP. They then have one year to write the provincial exam. If they pass, (and they do), they get registered as an ACP.
Now out of curiosity what do various people get paid for their registration level? How many hours in your avg work week?
Here a new PCP gets $17.50 hr, with 5 years exp. $19.90. An ACP starts at $21.50 and with 5 years exp. $24.50. I might be out a few cents as I haven't got my book handy. We work an avg. 42 hour week plus overtime if you want and there is always lots. We do mostly 12 hour shifts in a two day two night four days off rotation. Some of the quieter rural bases work 24 on 72 off. Our contract is up soon and its nice to know whats around.
Nova Scotia will not consider registering EMT-B's.
I believe Rid is right. You started the ball rolling but have let it pass you by. If you want to move ahead you must push for change from within. Look at our and other countries sucesses and our mistakes. Learn from them and make a better system. It won't be easy and it will cost a lot. But it is doable.
 

BossyCow

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The need for vollie systems requires volunteers. So the course has been somewhat washed down.

A&P is not really covered in EMT class. At least not sufficently. As a medic we take A&P I and II, 2 semesters outside of medic class. EMTs really should do the same.

I agree that the standard is too low. We should all have basic A&P and also Medical Terminology and some Pharmacology.

I disagree that its the volly system that brings the standard down though. For a transport agency that will replace an EMT every 2 - 3 years, whose rig is never more than 10 minutes from a hospital with ALS available on all calls, there is no need for a higher standard. They can (and some say do) train monkeys to be EMT's in those systems.

Currently those who take their responsibilities seriously, will take their education seriously and will be learning througout their careers, regardless of cert level. Currently, from a business standpoint, the current standard meets the needs of the agencies hiring EMTs so there is no impetus to change. If they want higher skills, they hire a medic. If they have a priority on staffing with high quality, well trained, experienced EMT-Bs, there there enough of them around to fill that need.

Nobody's going to fix what ain't broke, and though we wish it could be better, there will have to be a few more lawsuits and the insurance agencies will have to dictate a higher standard before anything changes.
 

EMT19053

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I agree that the Basic class is probably to short, however, where I am from all of the EMT's are vollie with full time jobs. It is somewhat difficult to juggle work, class and family at the same time. It is already difficult to recruit EMT's out here let alone making the class longer. The closest ALS for our service is 180 miles away and the hospital is what some people call a bandaid station. I think that the EMT-B's in areas like mine are more interested in learning and becoming better providers unlike the trained monkeys that Bossy refers to because to them its a job and out here we do it to help people. It is tough when you don't use the skills and knowledge every day like some but we do the best we can and learn something new on every run.
 

Meursault

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I'll let someone else *coughRidcough* explain how the last post proves their point to a T.

I'm not sure urban/suburban BLS is quite as horrible as Bossy portrays it. Yes, between high turnover and multiple competing agencies, there's not much incentive to train EMTs to a high standard. On the other hand, in my area, nearly all EMTs with private companies spend their days doing noncritical interfacility transfers. It's a job that could be done by a trained monkey, and so the EMTs are treated and trained as such.

In the examples frequently brought up by critics of all-volunteer BLS, EMTs are the sole 911 providers for miles. They might be better trained and motivated than your average private IFT employee, but the deficiencies in their training as compared to medics become much more significant in emergencies.

As other posters have pointed out, criticism of those systems is not criticism of the individual. Similarly, I'm quite sure that some posters here feel that their colleagues are better trained/more competent/too busy to go to medic school. It might even be true. Regardless, if your system or any other cannot deliver quality care, something needs to change.
 

TKO

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Now out of curiosity what do various people get paid for their registration level? How many hours in your avg work week?
Here a new PCP gets $17.50 hr, with 5 years exp. $19.90. An ACP starts at $21.50 and with 5 years exp. $24.50. I might be out a few cents as I haven't got my book handy. We work an avg. 42 hour week plus overtime if you want and there is always lots. We do mostly 12 hour shifts in a two day two night four days off rotation. Some of the quieter rural bases work 24 on 72 off. Our contract is up soon and its nice to know whats around.

Wow!! BC is looking damn good! Even SK (where I came from) pays better than that. I make $20.17/hr and ACPs make $30/hr to start. We receive an increase of $5/hr after 5 years. And we are currently VERY upset with the employer because they made a deal with our membership to provide us with a raise this month (we haven't had one for 5 years) and they didn't even show up with a proprosal. We're headed towards a "strike" next year.

There are some serious down-sides that we are fighting against too. I work 250+ hrs/month (when I give 100% availability) and I only get paid $10/hr between call outs. I receive 3 hours pay on any call out, but if 2 calls are together within that 3 hours, I only get the 3 hours. If those 2 calls last 4 hours together, I get paid for 4 hours. I've had days where I put in a call and 2 minutes before I clear I have gotten another call and it just extends the original call. This is called a Foxtrot shift. We are fighting to get rid of it because it is a full-time station and we deserve full-time pay.

There's also Kilo shifts where they don't have to be at the station and some people work other jobs at the same time and just wear a pager. They get paid $2/hour because they seldom get a call but receive 4 hours for every callout regardless of whether they run together or not. The quality of service in those stations isn't excellent because of the response times and often EMR-only trained rescuerers. This sounds almost acceptable for the money, but a lot of PCPs have to start in kilo stations and go further into debt. Someone trying to make a career out of EMS will get royally screwed for their first 6 months if they have to start in a kilo station.

We don't have ICPs here, but did in SK. PCP and ICP is almost the same level tho between the two provinces. Here, we have about a dozen meds to give, IV therapies, etc. We're getting Morphine (don't really want it) and ETTs and some advanced cardiac drugs and protocols. BC doesn't train as indepth on ECGs as SK did because they don't have monitors on BLS cars, but as a depaired ALS PCP, you will get that access.

Not much for ACPs around BC, so we are ALS out here. Really, I am highest level so it never occurs to me that there are situations that I would radio for ALS anymore. There are definitely times that ALS would be required, but when you don't have it you adapt.
 

Topher38

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I think the clinical time should be longer as well. I learned alot in the classroom but when i did my ride time with paid EMS i learned ALOT just by watching and helping with vitals. Clinical req. is only 10 hours i think. Which is enough for what 4-5 calls on a regular day. But yea 120 hours isnt enought. Fo show.
 

skyemt

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Here is one of the great ironies of this forum...

when the question of inadequate education comes up, everyone, including the paramedics chime in with criticisms of the basic education, and rightly so...

BUT... often when basics ask questions, be them scenario based, or questions based on info higher than a basic cert, very few paramedics join in with educational "teaching".. sure, a few most always do, and they know who they are... but MANY on this forum do not.

so, if a great many paramedics on this very site will not step up in the education of basics on this site, why the heck would anyone think it would happen on a much larger scale.

if you want the education to be better, the more educated on this site have an opportunity to start here.

where are the threads where paramedics want to teach basics? not too many, actually. is it your responsibility to do this? no. but if you choose not to, which is fine, don't come back and complain that the educational standards are too low. it's all about continual education, and there's no better place to start than here. it's one of the reasons i continually visit this site. to learn. not to read a thousand threads about what we already know, that the educational standards of basics are too low.

so, those with higher education, how about passing along some of that knowledge, and make us all think and get better educated!
 

indygirl14

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I'm gonna chime in on this one....although maybe I shouldn't...

I'm currently a month into my EMT-B classes, and I already see that I wish we had more time. We spent eight hours on A&P, which it sounds like is more than what most get, however, it could have been much much more. This is really one of the reasons that I'm seriously thinking about Paramedic Training...I just want more of this...I want more time to get confident in what we are learning. I want more clinical time (we are required to do 24 hours on the ambulance and 24 in the trauma center). I want more A&P (did I really just say that :p). I want more airway. I just want more of it. I want to know that I am providing the absolute best care that I can, no matter what level I'm at.

I understand that there needs to be a difference between EMT-B and EMT-P...but at least DOUBLE the requirements for EMT-B. I mean...twice the time that we have to do this stuff, would be so nice.

But, since for now, it is what it is...I'll absorb as much as I can and spend as much time on the ambulance and ER as I can...and then move into Paramedic school
 
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