EMS Carrying Firearms

[MedicPatriot]

So I was wondering what you guys think about carrying firearms on the medic unit? Now before we start bashing, lets try to be adults.

This argument started at my station where they tried to tell police officers who ride the medic unit that they must disarm themselves and put it in the station safe. I am VERY against that. I have been on numerous calls where I was glad the officer driving for me had a firearm on him. Sure this my be the job of the police, but routine calls can turn violent when police aren't even dispatched. More than that, you are trying to deny someone protecting themselves.

Besides police officers, what about people who can legally conceal a firearm. I have a concealed carry license, but not in Maryland. If I did have one in Maryland though, shouldn't I be able to [legally] be armed as long as its in due regard to the patient? We are talking about responsible people here, not gun slinging idiots.



The other sides arguments, and my counterarguments:

It is dangerous in case the patient grabs it
A: Yes it could be, but they shouldn't be able to see it under most circumstances and it can't be pulled out with a good retention holster.

It could go off and injure somebody
A: This comes from ignorance. Guns don't magically go off, the trigger must be pulled. The only valid argument is if you are using a cheap holster that could catch the trigger.

That's the job of the police:
A: Agreed, but they aren't always there.



This isn't meant to be a gun control thread. Just a discussion, so lets hear it.

 

[nwhitney]

There are already MANY posts on this topic.

 

[Handsome Robb]

You did not just start this again did you? Sorry not trying to be an *** but this always causes arguments.

I searched "concealed weapon" in the standard search bar and came up with this:

http://emtlife.com/search.php?searchid=2404761

 

[MedicPatriot]

Sorry. I searched it and found only things about patients with concealed carry permits.

 

[mycrofft]

Here's one:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=14014

 

[mycrofft]

It isn't polite to just throw a URL, sorry.

I'm former USAF firefighter, med tech and nurse, qualified (not expert) with M-9 Berreta and M-16. Had training in LOAC. Worked with local sheriff department for twenty years. I will not say whether or not nor how many guns I own.

I do not support carrying firearms because it is dangerous mission creep. You can't render aid while returning fire without armed assistants (which is law enforcement); the situations needing you to barge in under cover of arms are rare and usually misunderstood; the personal, psychological, legal, ethical ramifications should you ever shoot someone (even if found to be acting in self defense) are beyond your, and to some extent, my knowledge. There is "gun courage" which will cause you to even consider going where you are likely to "get shot", whereas without a firearm you would think twice or flat out hold off. If you should shoot someone, his associates may take it out later on you, your company, your co-workers or friends. This isn't Beirut, as we used to say, and it isn't Hollywood, although Hollywood teaches us Americans that it's all about going fast and shooting.

This is ALL outside the issue of what if you were shot? A gun won't protect you from a bullet. Would your benefits be enough to make it OK even if you were paralyzed for life, maybe quadriplegic, maybe eating through a tube in bed? Even "just a simple colostomy"? Eat up your life savings, no money for the kids to go to college? Make your wife a widow, your kids orphans, or force your parents or other loved ones to have to bury you?

We need more education about firearms and less marketing.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Sorry. I searched it and found only things about patients with concealed carry permits.

No need to apologize. All is well. I didn't mean to come off like an ***.

 

[MedicPatriot]

It isn't polite to just throw a URL, sorry.

I'm former USAF firefighter, med tech and nurse, qualified (not expert) with M-9 Berreta and M-16. Had training in LOAC. Worked with local sheriff department for twenty years. I will not say whether or not nor how many guns I own.

I do not support carrying firearms because it is dangerous mission creep. You can't render aid while returning fire without armed assistants (which is law enforcement); the situations needing you to barge in under cover of arms are rare and usually misunderstood; the personal, psychological, legal, ethical ramifications should you ever shoot someone (even if found to be acting in self defense) are beyond your, and to some extent, my knowledge. There is "gun courage" which will cause you to even consider going where you are likely to "get shot", whereas without a firearm you would think twice or flat out hold off. If you should shoot someone, his associates may take it out later on you, your company, your co-workers or friends. This isn't Beirut, as we used to say, and it isn't Hollywood, although Hollywood teaches us Americans that it's all about going fast and shooting.

This is ALL outside the issue of what if you were shot? A gun won't protect you from a bullet. Would your benefits be enough to make it OK even if you were paralyzed for life, maybe quadriplegic, maybe eating through a tube in bed? Even "just a simple colostomy"? Eat up your life savings, no money for the kids to go to college? Make your wife a widow, your kids orphans, or force your parents or other loved ones to have to bury you?

We need more education about firearms and less marketing.

I wasn't saying EMS should be law enforcement. Some people carry guns every day everywhere they go and would probably not want to disarm themselves. It isn't to be able to do more things, but to simply keep one basic ability of self-defense on you at all times. Gun courage could be a valid point you bring up, and I can see some people may be like this.

Either way I didn't realize this is a recurring topic lol so I will browse them

 

[epipusher]

Enough emts and medics exist that get exited and brag about the fact they are carrying a knife while on duty. It's a scary thought even consider the idea of carrying a firearm.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

18 months away and nothing has changed... LMAO... I missed this...

Oh... 40 caliber Springfield XD...

 

[DrParasite]

I, Joe citizen, am permitted to carry a gun on me in a holster. Just in case I want to.

I, Joe EMT, am permitted to carry a gun on me in a holster. Just in case I want to.

I, Joe EMT, am not permitted to carry a gun on me when I step into the ambulance, despite the fact that I might go into a situation where my life is threatened.

I, Officer Joe EMT, am not permitted to carry a gun on me when I step into the ambulance, despite the fact that I might go into a situation where my life is threatened, and I am a LEO who carries a gun at my FT job.

If Joe citizen can carry a gun to handle any situation he wants (and deal with the repercussions of screwing up), why shouldn't an EMT, who is trained to handle EMS emergencies, and as qualified as Joe Citizen to carry a gun?

How many officers have had to draw their gun while on the job? anyone have stats? now how many have had to discharge their firearms while on the job? even smaller number?

What was the percentage of cops who never discharge their firearm once in their career (outside of the range)? if it's a high number, would you advocate them not needing them, or would you say the low number still justifies them all being armed?

or is this topic still absurd?

 

[EMS123]

In addition to a firearm discussion what does everyone feel about EMS Providers wearing a "second chance vest"?

Definitely feel Providers should at the very minimum be able to carry a less then lethal weapon, or chemical deterrent (OC Spray).

Law enforcement/Military follow escalation of force/ use of force both are standing operating procedures/protocols that have proved to saves lives.

 

[Veneficus]

a timely post

I have changed my mind on this issue.

EMS should carry firearms with one round in it. That way if they feel they may desperately need it, they can self administer and rid us of their psychosis.

(Pay no attention to my sarcasm)

 

[bigbaldguy]

They wouldn't just hand us all a gun.

Bear with me on this I really do have a point.
When TSA first announced that they were going to begin a program to allow airline pilots to carry guns my first thought was "oh HELL no". I knew too many pilots who strut around talking about how they would carry their dessert eagle .50 and if anything happened they would blow those "alkaydah boys right back to Ayllah". I was 100 percent against it. Now that the program has been in place for some time it didn't quite roll out like I thought it would. They didn't just start handing a gun to every pilot and say here yah go try not to shoot any hotel maids. The pilots have to jump through hoops, go through mental evaluations (of which a fair number fail believe it or not),go to some training camp for a week, attend extensive yearly training and follow very strict procedures all at their own expense. I know a few pilots who went through the program then surrendered their FDO (flight deck officer) status because they said it just wasn't worth the trouble. While I still don't see the purpose of having armed pilots I no longer worry in the least about the pilots who are in the program. The truth is the unqualified people don't get guns. I think that a lot of the objections in EMS towards medics carrying fire arms are based around ideas similar to the ones I had when I first heard about the FDO program. If they were ever to arm EMT's you can bet they wouldn't be giving everyone of us a gun.
All of that said I still don't see the need for pilots to be armed and while I can see a greater need for medics to be armed I think that in 90 percent of departments it is unnecessary.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Bear with me on this I really do have a point.
When TSA first announced that they were going to begin a program to allow airline pilots to carry guns my first thought was "oh HELL no". I knew too many pilots who strut around talking about how they would carry their dessert eagle .50 and if anything happened they would blow those "alkaydah boys right back to Ayllah". I was 100 percent against it. Now that the program has been in place for some time it didn't quite roll out like I thought it would. They didn't just start handing a gun to every pilot and say here yah go try not to shoot any hotel maids. The pilots have to jump through hoops, go through mental evaluations (of which a fair number fail believe it or not),go to some training camp for a week, attend extensive yearly training and follow very strict procedures all at their own expense. I know a few pilots who went through the program then surrendered their FDO (flight deck officer) status because they said it just wasn't worth the trouble. While I still don't see the purpose of having armed pilots I no longer worry in the least about the pilots who are in the program. The truth is the unqualified people don't get guns. I think that a lot of the objections in EMS towards medics carrying fire arms are based around ideas similar to the ones I had when I first heard about the FDO program. If they were ever to arm EMT's you can bet they wouldn't be giving everyone of us a gun.
All of that said I still don't see the need for pilots to be armed and while I can see a greater need for medics to be armed I think that in 90 percent of departments it is unnecessary.

I didn't mean to imply by my post that I supported the arming of medics. I do not.
Just to clarify I think there are lost of reasons why EMS personnel should not be armed but the idea that unqualified people will be allowed to carry is in my opinion not one of them.

 

[Nervegas]

In addition to a firearm discussion what does everyone feel about EMS Providers wearing a "second chance vest"?

Definitely feel Providers should at the very minimum be able to carry a less then lethal weapon, or chemical deterrent (OC Spray).

Law enforcement/Military follow escalation of force/ use of force both are standing operating procedures/protocols that have proved to saves lives.

Why even get involved in a situation? We are here to treat and transport the injured, not get into an all out brawl or attempt to subdue anyone.

"But what if a patient attacks me..??"

Then use enough force to get yourself out of the situation and retreat to a safe location. We have plenty of big heavy objects that would suit the purpose just fine. Plus, I would hope that there are two people at minimum on that ambulance, get your partner to back you up?

We should be deferring and retreating from situations. It is not our responsibility to engage in any form of LE role. If I am getting shot at, the last thing I want to be doing is trying to return fire, just find cover and sit put. Obviously LE based medics are the exception, but you catch my drift.

 

[bigbaldguy]

Why even get involved in a situation? We are here to treat and transport the injured, not get into an all out brawl or attempt to subdue anyone.

"But what if a patient attacks me..??"

Then use enough force to get yourself out of the situation and retreat to a safe location. We have plenty of big heavy objects that would suit the purpose just fine. Plus, I would hope that there are two people at minimum on that ambulance, get your partner to back you up?

We should be deferring and retreating from situations. It is not our responsibility to engage in any form of LE role. Obviously LE based medics are the exception, but you catch my drift.

Unlike arming of EMS I think that body armor is not a bad idea, but should be left up to the individual medics. I personally would not choose to wear body armor because I simply don't need it where I work. However if someone feels more comfortable wearing it I see no reason it shouldn't be allowed. Unlike a firearm I don't see a significant downside to it other than you might occasionally see a medic who looks a little goofy. I have actually seen one medic who was wearing a vest and other medics did make fun of him behind his back. But I imagine there was a time when people caught hell for wearing their seat belts when no one else wore them. I suppose it might give someone a false sense of security but that can be said of many things. Unfortunately getting involved in a situation isn't always something you chose to do. Sometimes it just happens.
I do not think that employers should be responsible for buying the vests though.

 

[Veneficus]

I do not think that employers should be responsible for buying the vests though.

I think this would depend on where you work. It is my belief an employer does have a responsibility to provide protection from reasonable threats to safety.

I do agree that medics should have ballistic armor. Not because somebody is directly gunning for them in most cases, but a victim of circumstance.

 

[mycrofft]

I will admit that a vest I can support, but they need to be vividly taught that the vest is not magic and is not to be used as a shield to go where it's too hot to go.
They used to NOT allow us to wear Nomex cowls under our fire helmets because they were afraid we wold go into places we shouldn't, lacking the reality element of burning ears.

 

[Veneficus]

They used to NOT allow us to wear Nomex cowls under our fire helmets because they were afraid we wold go into places we shouldn't, lacking the reality element of burning ears.

I know a couple of guys who still won't wear one by choice for this reason.

I don't fight fire anymore, but when I did, I'd take my chances with the hood rather than without.

I also know a couple of guys, one with his wedding ring branded to his finger and the other who was wearing a metal belt buckle he has a life-long reminder of not to do again.

I can't help but think that many safety regs were put into place because somebody somewhere did something stupid.

I know there is probably 1 or 2 named after me from my younger days.