Care Ambulance withholding care

BenjaminA

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Hey y’all,
I had a question concerning Care Ambulance of Southern California. I have worked around LA County for a bit and seen/heard stories of Care withholding care until ALS is on scene for “ALS Calls”. I also had a buddy who was suspended from the company for this reason along with him saying it was actual policy. I was curious how is this allowed? Isn’t this a violation of the NREMT or whatever body is present?
Thanks for any input
 

DrParasite

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never heard of care ambulance, but I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff.

however, NREMT doesn't set policy, however, the local authority having jurisdiction might. they might require no treatment to begin until the local FD ALS arrives on scene.

if your buddy was suspended for breaking that policy, that sucks, however that's what his boss tell him to do. I think it's a stupid policy, but then again, I don't work in LA county. And If I did, I would get suspended a lot for treating my patient before the ALS showed up.
 

Jim37F

Forum Deputy Chief
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Well I'd imagine he wouldn't be suspended if it was an actual policy.

I never worked for Care, but amongst the So Cal private ambulances, they're generally have a better, more upstanding reputation than the generic, fly by night, dialysis mobile companies.

Before they shut down, I spent a few months at Gerber Ambulance in Torrance, and we were required to respond Code 2 (no lights, no sirens) to every call while Torrance FD responded Code 3 to everything, so by that 95% of the time TFD was first in scene, and there were persistent rumors that in those cases where Gerber was first they were supposed to sit and wait.... but those few times we went in and initiated Assessments and treatments and never once got grief from TFD or management, so as far as I'm concerned, those rumors were just that, rumors.

I also worked McCormick with LA County, and LACo never had any issues whatsoever with us being first on scene and initiating treatments. While they are a big department and the different regions can develop different cultures, I can't imagine the regions where Care responds developed that "Don't make scene without us" type culture.

As far as Orange County Fire Authority... all I can say is I've heard stories thru the rumor mill that OCFA liked to be on scene first....

But I have never worked in Orange County, never even really met any OC Fire guys so I cannot verify any of those stories.... but given my other experiences with these rumors, I'm gonna assume they're also false.

So I'd some Care EMTs do still believe those rumors, and they are indeed false, that Care, and the Authorities Having Jurisdiction they work for, want Care to start Assessments and treatments as appropriate when first on scene, and your buddy did not do that... then I can very easily see why he got suspended.

So yeah, the mere fact that he got suspended tells me that Care does not actually have any policies that say "sit and wait for Fire" and your buddy was in fact expected to go be an EMT and not just an ambulance driver...
 
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BenjaminA

Forum Probie
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Well I'd imagine he wouldn't be suspended if it was an actual policy.

I never worked for Care, but amongst the So Cal private ambulances, they're generally have a better, more upstanding reputation than the generic, fly by night, dialysis mobile companies.

Before they shut down, I spent a few months at Gerber Ambulance in Torrance, and we were required to respond Code 2 (no lights, no sirens) to every call while Torrance FD responded Code 3 to everything, so by that 95% of the time TFD was first in scene, and there were persistent rumors that in those cases where Gerber was first they were supposed to sit and wait.... but those few times we went in and initiated Assessments and treatments and never once got grief from TFD or management, so as far as I'm concerned, those rumors were just that, rumors.

I also worked McCormick with LA County, and LACo never had any issues whatsoever with us being first on scene and initiating treatments. While they are a big department and the different regions can develop different cultures, I can't imagine the regions where Care responds developed that "Don't make scene without us" type culture.

As far as Orange County Fire Authority... all I can say is I've heard stories thru the rumor mill that OCFA liked to be on scene first....

But I have never worked in Orange County, never even really met any OC Fire guys so I cannot verify any of those stories.... but given my other experiences with these rumors, I'm gonna assume they're also false.

So I'd some Care EMTs do still believe those rumors, and they are indeed false, that Care, and the Authorities Having Jurisdiction they work for, want Care to start Assessments and treatments as appropriate when first on scene, and your buddy did not do that... then I can very easily see why he got suspended.

So yeah, the mere fact that he got suspended tells me that Care does not actually have any policies that say "sit and wait for Fire" and your buddy was in fact expected to go be an EMT and not just an ambulance driver...
My apologies by my wording I meant he got fired for administration of treatment not for withholding. My apologies once more for any confusion.
 

DrParasite

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he was suspended or fired?
 

CarSevenFour

Forum Crew Member
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Good old CARE Ambulance. When I needed a respite from Watts, I talked to Carl Richardson, the original owner of CARE. We had 6 BLS ambulances with Cars #1 and #2 as backup units, (budget Stoner low top Suburban conversions). I joined CARE in 1975, 6 years after it was founded and it was already "a going concern." It was small, family oriented, and after-hours dispatch was handled by his wife Maryann, with a phone and radio near her kitchen table. She worked the office during the day and the only other office worker was a lovely woman named Margie who handled billing. His EMT/Drivers got their very own unit and we were allowed to take the ambulance home with us, even though we were not obgligated to run night calls, (he had a 24 hour station crew for that). We worked 8 hour days and life was wonderful. No trapped people in wrecked cars, no knifings or shootings, no psychos trying to hand you your head, just low key IFT calls and lotsa grandmas going home.

Our station moved from an industrial building on West Katella in Anaheim to a grand new station that had been a fully landscaped swimming pool contractor's office, same street but on the east side now. Swimming in that cool pool under the hot Anaheim sun between runs still makes me smile!

Look at CARE now! Hundreds of units, 3,000 worldwide, contracts up the wazzoo (Carl relied on referrals from convalescent home nurses, who thought he was a great guy). Many of them knew him since he was a young man handling contracted "first calls" for mortuaries to take the load off funeral directors late at night. Carl had no desire to run ambulances because the mortuary biz was bringing the money in. And he certainly wanted nothing to do with 9-1-1 emergency calls, the insurance money from IFTs made our checks good. A couple of nurses eventually convinced him to start an ambulance service and give up the mortuary side. When he did, the little company, then known as CARE Convalescent Ambulance, was an immediate success and when we, the burned out masses, saw CARE crews at the ER, they were always relaxed and smiling. Car #6, a short-lived brand-new Ford van was the first unit to carry the distinctive baby blue striping color still seen on CARE units today. Carl handed me the keys to that unit and it was the very first new ambulance I ever drove, even the Model-30 gurney was still wrapped in protective plastic. It was also the first brand new gurney I ever had and it rolled like a dream. We also had an earlier blue and white van, Car #5, but its shade of blue was decidedly darker than Car #6, the rest of the units were sanitary white.

We got along well, Carl and I, and I truly loved this man, he WAS a great guy! Now that he's passed on and the company was bought out by Falck international, it became like most huge corporations. Run lots of calls, the real need to standardize everything, and not really giving much thought to employee personal needs or call loads. Carl probably would have been proud of his 3 sons who brought CARE into the big boy's game. Of course growth also breeds problems of its own.

I still have fond memories of working for quality "mom and pop" ambulance services compared to big city companies like Schaefer's. Walt Schaefer was another great guy, but, man they ran our tails off in Los Angeles. I think Carl would be proud to see what he created. As my favorite partner, Danny, said on Carl's obituary years later, "Carl Richardson was the best boss I ever had."
 

CarSevenFour

Forum Crew Member
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never heard of care ambulance, but I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff.

however, NREMT doesn't set policy, however, the local authority having jurisdiction might. they might require no treatment to begin until the local FD ALS arrives on scene.

if your buddy was suspended for breaking that policy, that sucks, however that's what his boss tell him to do. I think it's a stupid policy, but then again, I don't work in LA county. And If I did, I would get suspended a lot for treating my patient before the ALS showed up.
I hate to be in the pick, pick, picky camp. But, really, you never heard of CARE? Falck is a HUGE medical care provider with 3,000 ambulances all over the globe. You might want to read some of the EMS trade journals and get yourself educated about the industry.

You assert that, "...I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff." Now you besmirch a whole segment of EMS, private ambulance providers, WITHOUT PROOF, because you, "heard" some type of rumor. Nice move, but not quite honest. Do you have reports, studies, legal proceedings? While you're at it, provide something, anything, about public service corruption as well so we can compare the statistics. Or maybe it's something you recall from watching re-runs of "Mother, Juggs and Speed"?
 

CCCSD

Forum Deputy Chief
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I hate to be in the pick, pick, picky camp. But, really, you never heard of CARE? Falck is a HUGE medical care provider with 3,000 ambulances all over the globe. You might want to read some of the EMS trade journals and get yourself educated about the industry.

You assert that, "...I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff." Now you besmirch a whole segment of EMS, private ambulance providers, WITHOUT PROOF, because you, "heard" some type of rumor. Nice move, but not quite honest. Do you have reports, studies, legal proceedings? While you're at it, provide something, anything, about public service corruption as well so we can compare the statistics. Or maybe it's something you recall from watching re-runs of "Mother, Juggs and Speed"?
since it’s coming from you, we understandably question it.
 

DrParasite

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200w.gif
 

jgmedic

Fire Truck Driver
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I hate to be in the pick, pick, picky camp. But, really, you never heard of CARE? Falck is a HUGE medical care provider with 3,000 ambulances all over the globe. You might want to read some of the EMS trade journals and get yourself educated about the industry.

You assert that, "...I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff." Now you besmirch a whole segment of EMS, private ambulance providers, WITHOUT PROOF, because you, "heard" some type of rumor. Nice move, but not quite honest. Do you have reports, studies, legal proceedings? While you're at it, provide something, anything, about public service corruption as well so we can compare the statistics. Or maybe it's something you recall from watching re-runs of "Mother, Juggs and Speed"?
CARE until recently wasnt all that well known outside of SoCal. And really, you claim to have worked in LA/OC and you're questioning whether or not private ambulance companies do shady things??? I too worked for the Richardsons and from friends I had there, it has changed a lot and become more shady since Falck. Now, you of all people asking for proof and statistics is laughable based on your posts in other threads. You know what, hang on, maybe I can search wordpress blogs and find some for you.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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I hate to be in the pick, pick, picky camp. But, really, you never heard of CARE? Falck is a HUGE medical care provider with 3,000 ambulances all over the globe. You might want to read some of the EMS trade journals and get yourself educated about the industry.
never. I'm not from SoCal, spent no time in California, nor have I ever worked in the steller LA/OC EMS system. Why would I? I've heard of Falck but I don't keep track of what companies they purchase. Seriously, why would anyone know of a mom and pop company that was swallowed by the largest in the world? And you are the LAST person to tell anyone to get educated on the industry
You assert that, "...I've heard there are plenty of private companies doing all types of shady stuff." Now you besmirch a whole segment of EMS, private ambulance providers, WITHOUT PROOF, because you, "heard" some type of rumor. Nice move, but not quite honest. Do you have reports, studies, legal proceedings? While you're at it, provide something, anything, about public service corruption as well so we can compare the statistics. Or maybe it's something you recall from watching re-runs of "Mother, Juggs and Speed"?
Is it your position that private companies don't do shady stuff? Because I'm pretty sure all that means is you have never worked in Private EMS, especially in the private IFT world. I have, and I do still have friends in various EMS systems. It's pretty ironic that you are asking for reputable proof to support a well-known claim (especially in the area where you claim to have worked) when you are known for making up stories without a shred of actual evidence to make it up.

And I prefer bringing out the dead to mother juggs and speed.
 

Uclabruin103

Forum Lieutenant
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Suspended for initiating treatment? What treatment, oxygen? Assisting with someone's medication? I HIGHLY doubt he was suspended for being on scene first and beginning an assessment.

Think of the optics of an ambulance on scene first with the crew sitting inside just waiting for fire. Now think of your perspective as Joe public on that.

I worked at CARE for two years, and they didn't want you to pull into a restaurant if you got canceled off a code 3 run due to it appearing you went L&S to eat.

Way more to this. Being in EMS for over ten years has taught me that when people get in trouble, it's never their fault. It's always the shady company screwing them over.
 

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