Cardiac patient walked down stairs, medics don't document it

[el Murpharino]

and oh my god, a PAID PROFESSIONAL did this, not a volunteer, what next?

How does throwing this little quip in here benefit the argument at hand rather than beat an already deader than dead horse?? Seems to satisfy your own personal agenda, to me...

 

[CAOX3]

I love how everyone argues over the dumbest crap on this forum, there is hardly ever a cival thread on here. I've had cardiac pt's that insist on walking, I usually make them refuse moving equipment with a signature. It is up to them. It should also be documented in the narrative what took place. You then have 2 items that back your arse up in court. I understand what these medics did, they just did a horrible job with documentation which, if your a Medic, EMT, or FR, you best know all about. Falsification of what was done was not appropriate either....

and oh my god, a PAID PROFESSIONAL did this, not a volunteer, what next?

Ever spent any time in urban EMS? I could write a book about getting people out of tight spaces. This is a tired excuse. It was unsafe there was no help, give me a break. They didnt write that did they, they didnt write it was unsafe, they didnt write the guy refused. Im guessing this isnt how it went down.

Face it these guys dropped the ball. They got what they deserved which was canned. If it was a simple misunderstanding then why were lie after lie told? Yeah and the medical director stripped them of RSI, because it was a simple misunderstanding.

OMG paid lazy professionals, well I guess you havent spent much time in a professional system. There is plenty of laziness going around.

Im seriously leaning towards a case of "I dont think your having chest pain now get your *** down stairs." Unfortunatley this isnt uncommon either.

Now I hope im wrong.

 

[bmennig]

How does throwing this little quip in here benefit the argument at hand rather than beat an already deader than dead horse?? Seems to satisfy your own personal agenda, to me...

No, people love to point out on this forum that paramedics are so professional and they have an education and that they are best people ever. EMT's suck, we know squat. This time a medic screwed up, proving that education and professionalism doesn't make you a better provider. It did satisfy my own agenda, quite a bit actually.


As far as Urban EMS, haha, what the hell is that? I don't have a big town in a 20 mile radius. It's not just medics that are lazy, I've talked to hospitals that have hung up the phone stating "we're to busy, go somewhere else" while trying to call a report on a patient I'm bringing in. Talk about Lazy, that's a downright disgrace. I made sure the patient knew that the hospital did that as well as the communication center. The hospital wasn't on divert status either. In fact, it was Chest Pain call. That certainly makes me feel better if I ever need to go to the hospital. I'm sure you guys will have something to back the hospital up, you always seem to have the answers.

 

[rescuepoppy]

I am not taking sides but everybody has been around a while has had patients refuse certain parts of treatment. This includes being carried. I was not there so I dont know if this was the case. My biggest problem comes from the alleged not documenting and false statements. If these are true that is what will be their downfall. Not the patient walking or even whether they are professional or volunteer. What we all should concentrate on is being careful of what statements we make. Tell the truth then you do not have to try to remeber what you said and be sure to document.

 

[firemedic7982]

The old adage applies here... It wasnt your pt. You werent on scene. Dont armchair quarterback, and blame the crew when you werent there to see what really happened.

Secondly I think everyone who has read this article has lost sight of something. It's the media... How one sided do you think this is? And come on how many of you are naive enough to blindly think that this pt. actually died as a DIRECT result of the crew walking him down the stairs? REALLY? If there is a person on here who believes that, go find another profession. Im not saying that it couldnt have been a contributing factor, but there are people on this blog who seem to be quick to hang the crew as the absolute cause, just the same as the media.

How about the big *** MI he was having when they got there? Dont suppose that would have killed him? NAH! how aout the extensive medical history? NAH! Probably not that either. Therefore it is safe to presume that the ONLY contributing factor, and the direct cause of his death must have been the medics on scene.

And for the people on here who immidiately hung the crew out to dry by going by what the article said.... Shame on you! Not backing your own? Not having at least the professional courtesy to say " you know what? I wasn there, I shouldnt judge" I bet some of you are the same people that drop your partners in the grease just to save your own *** dont you?

Threads like this make me sick!

 

[JPINFV]

So your justifying lying, twice?

 

[firemedic7982]

I didnt mention the lying.

My argument was that the thread had lost site of the article.

And in regards to the lying... shame on them. But tell me you have never told a lie, and I will show you a liar.

My main point is this. Its really none of our place to judge what happened... WE WERENT ON SCENE.

 

[Sasha]

And for the people on here who immidiately hung the crew out to dry by going by what the article said.... Shame on you! Not backing your own? Not having at least the professional courtesy to say " you know what? I wasn there, I shouldnt judge" I bet some of you are the same people that drop your partners in the grease just to save your own *** dont you?

Threads like this make me sick!

This "good ol boy" attitude makes ME sick.

 

[firemedic7982]

Really? "Good Ole Boy"

So when you dont completely restock your truck at the end of a really busy shift... Lets say your short something simple.... like a kerlix... You want me as your relief to write you up and turn you in to the field supervisor.... Or would you rather me just forget about it.

 

[firemedic7982]

This "good ol boy" attitude makes ME sick.

And what is "good ol boy" about not passing judgement?

 

[Sasha]

And what is "good ol boy" about not passing judgement?

Not passing judgement is fine, I encourage it, but your comment specifically about backing your own bugs me. Backing your own when they were wrong? You can't fudge that they lied on their report, but that's okay because everyone lies at some point? That's outrageous.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

This "good ol boy" attitude makes ME sick.

Ditto. EMS is not a club where we randomly protect our own. Your actions need to reveal a competency that deserves the respect of the public and your peers.

Here is the bottom line: Whether or not these EMSers (no matter their level) screwed up on allowing a cardiac patient to walk down three flights of stairs is debatable. Yes there are cases when walking a patient will happen, but the fact remains that these folks falsified documentation and then lied over and over again. These are actions you take only when you realize that you screwed up and you need to to try to cover your a**. They obviously realized that they could not justify their actions, otherwise they would have documented justification and explained their actions on review. And their lies got desperate; saying that FD was not an scene when the fact that they were could be easily verified? We can try to justify their actions in regard to patient care, but we can not justify the black mark they put on EMS when they commited crimes that call into question their patient care and the professionalism of all EMSers. Yes the media is always biased, and yes we were not there, but I doubt anyone here can justify falsifying documentation and then lying (over and over) about patient care...

If they believed that they were providing the best possible patient care then they would have truthfully documented it that way and stood by their actions! How can you respect or defend them when they take the opposite stance?

 

[firemedic7982]

Im not standing by them, nor am I defending them.

I have made no statement in their defense. I have said that I did not approve of them lying.

The main point of my argument, was people need to quit being martyrs. Quit acting like a group of people that have never screwed up. We all have. This thread is yet another exaple of many here on this website. People get on here and bash one another all the time.

The name of this website is EMTLIFE. We are a small profession in our infancy. Now is the time to help one another out. Not throw one another to the wolves.

If the article is accurate, and is in fact the sequence of events that occured without deletion... Than yes! Off with their heads for lying, and falsifying documentation.

But come on. We have more viable discussions on here than spanking someone for screwing up when that already been done. Theyve lost their jobs. Theyve been punished. Dont kick them anymore.

 

[Sasha]

Did you read more than one page of posts on this thread? We have talked about the different situations that could have come up instead of just "spanking them"

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Im not standing by them, nor am I defending them.

I have made no statement in their defense. I have said that I did not approve of them lying.

The main point of my argument, was people need to quit being martyrs. Quit acting like a group of people that have never screwed up. We all have. This thread is yet another exaple of many here on this website. People get on here and bash one another all the time.

The name of this website is EMTLIFE. We are a small profession in our infancy. Now is the time to help one another out. Not throw one another to the wolves.

If the article is accurate, and is in fact the sequence of events that occured without deletion... Than yes! Off with their heads for lying, and falsifying documentation.

But come on. We have more viable discussions on here than spanking someone for screwing up when that already been done. Theyve lost their jobs. Theyve been punished. Dont kick them anymore.

You liken failure to restock the kerlex with falsification of documentation and lying on investigation in an effort to cover over what they obviously knew was a dereliction of duty?

I still fail to see your point. I am not judging them; the EMS system in which they worked (as well as the courts possible one day) judged them and found them to be guilty of being sh*ty EMSers. I'm just agreeing, despite the fact that many here (especially in the first few pages) are defending their patient care by offering possible scenerios for why they did what they did. But whatever casues we can find for walking the patient, there is no justification for everything else.

You are saying that we weren’t there therefore we are no position to analyze their actions... but since we all have been or will be in similar situations in our EMS careers, then yes we can analyze what we would have done. I can say with 100% certainty that if I had been in their shoes and was “forced” to walk this patient, then I wouldn’t have falsified reports and then lied. I would have stood by my actions and defended my decisions in the course of providing the best possible patient care. We only lie when we have something to hide (i.e. substandard patient care). If I was to commit the same disservice to EMS as these medics did then I would hope that it would not be brushed under the rug a some insignificant “Kerlex Incident”. I would hope that the rest of the EMS community would disown me and distance themselves form a disgrace to the profession. Anything less for their actions is a defense of their actions based purely on the fact that they are part of the “EMS Club”.

 

[firemedic7982]

It doesnt matter what could have happened. Its not your place to speculate. You and no one else on here was there on scene, myself included.

The patients death is indeed unfortunate. The reported actions of the crew, inrresponsible.

My initial point... I continue to state this ...

There are quite a few posts in this thread that have completely immasculated the medics strictly on what the article said.

Thats wrong! If you werent on scene, then you do not know what happened. And it is no ones place to pass judgement in regards to their actions on scene.

I am completely in agreeance with severa people in this thread... There a several situations that I can think of that would prevent a pt. from being moved by EMS down the stairs. Maybe the stair chair was broken, maybe he didnt want to be chaired down the stairs, maybe he wanted to walk, was it a dignity issue?

While all of these are valid points that I agree with , along with th fact that I agree that their falsification of documentaton, and their dishonesty when conftonted about it is wrong, and inexcusable; I completely disagree with sitting here and passing judgement on people.


The final point Im going to make is in regards to your comment about the "good ol boy" mentality...

What is "good ol boy" about not passing judgement? Dont be a martyr. Youve screwed up before... You, me, and everyone else knows that! Its a fact of life.

But to say that we shouldnt protect your own because thats the "good ol boy" system is rediculous.

In fact if you ever need the help of an ambulace, I don't know lets say for terribel abominal pain... My protocols specificallty state that abdominal pain is the only thing that I cannot use narcotic pain management for. I can only give toradol if I am absolutely certain that it is kidney stones, and I can absolutely rule out ranl cohlic.

But normall if I were to pick up another medic for a situation like this, I would call my on duty supervisor, and ask for permission to medicate you anyway since you are a medic, and you know what your true situation is.

That my dear is professional courtesy.

Or how about the cop that you speed by, and instead of nailing you to a wall like he would anyone else, he lets you slide a little bit, remembering the time you helped him out on location.

Or what about when you are supposed to relive me at the end of my shift, and you call and say you are going to be late because your kid is sick and you need to take them to the doc. Should I stay over a little late for you? Sure I would. Because thats taking care of your own. When the fact of the matter is you are late! period. The job does not stop just because your child is sick. You should make other arrangements to get your child to the docotr like a grandparent, a neighbor, a sibling, the other parent. I should probably report that to the supervisor because when it boils down to it.... you violated policy because you are late! But i don't.... why? because we take care of each other.

What it boils down to is that it is not the "good ol boy" system. And if you cant manahe to stand by and not pass judgement on someone.... You are in the wrong line of work. And Ill tell you this much, I wouldnt work with you as a partner. That just tells me you are judgemental, and arrogant.

Im done with you!

 

[firemedic7982]

I appologize for the flagrant spelling and grammatical errors in my last post...

I was typing faster than my computer was... LOL.

 

[Sasha]

I am completely in agreeance with severa people in this thread...

You are in the wrong line of work. And Ill tell you this much, I wouldnt work with you as a partner. That just tells me you are judgemental, and arrogant.

And I'm probably one of the ones you agree with, because I said almost the exact thing you said in many posts when this thread first came about. It tells me you didn't read the posts beyond the first page.

There are quite a few posts in this thread that have completely immasculated the medics strictly on what the article said.

immasculated? So now you want to make this into a gender thing?

In fact if you ever need the help of an ambulace, I don't know lets say for terribel abominal pain... My protocols specificallty state that abdominal pain is the only thing that I cannot use narcotic pain management for. I can only give toradol if I am absolutely certain that it is kidney stones, and I can absolutely rule out ranl cohlic.

But normall if I were to pick up another medic for a situation like this, I would call my on duty supervisor, and ask for permission to medicate you anyway since you are a medic, and you know what your true situation is.

Do you understand why you don't give pain medication to abdominal pain??

Or what about when you are supposed to relive me at the end of my shift, and you call and say you are going to be late because your kid is sick and you need to take them to the doc. Should I stay over a little late for you? Sure I would. Because thats taking care of your own. When the fact of the matter is you are late! period. The job does not stop just because your child is sick. You should make other arrangements to get your child to the docotr like a grandparent, a neighbor, a sibling, the other parent. I should probably report that to the supervisor because when it boils down to it.... you violated policy because you are late! But i don't.... why? because we take care of each other.

That's common courtesy, dear, not professional courtesy. As for the cop letting an EMT/Paramedic speeder slide, s/he shouldn't. Speeding is still speeding and it can kill whether it was a teacher behind the wheel or a paramedic.

I don't agree with the "protect your own" that gives the impression that you should stand by someone, despite right or wrong, because they're a "brother or sister" News flash. We're not related just because you're in the same profession. You tried to justify them by "Everyone lies at some point." True, everyone lies at some point, but that doesn't make it anymore right.

 

[medic417]

Do you understand why you don't give pain medication to abdominal pain??

I don't understand why or how any service would still have the out dated no pain meds for abd pain protocol? Makes no sense. Anyone that allows someone to suffer needlessly needs to be tortured.

 

[firemedic7982]

Didnt say we didnt give pain meds to abd pain.

We withhold pain management on new onset undiagnosed abdominal pain. Unless we feel that it is suggestive of renal colic. If this is the case go ahead with the narcs.

Just to be clear. ONLY witheld on NEW onset, UN-diagnosed.

Otherwise it is

30mg Ketorlac
2-5mg IV, Morphine titrated to effect ans repeated PRN
0.5 - 1mcg/kg IV, Fentanyl titrated to effect, and repeated PRN
12.5 mg IV / 25 mg IM, Promethazine for control of N/V

As to why, because the medical director says so! If you would like a copy of our abdominal pain protocol, or any other protocol you may PM me.