Burn out and Turnover

[Elk Oil]

How are nurses and paramedics "equal"?

Lots of hospitals employ Medics to work in the ER, right along side nurses. Literally, the only difference is that nurses can insert foley catheters and medics can't. Many times, the medics know more about medications and procedures than the nurses do.

So I agree there is an equality issue. In fact, I'll take it to the next step... to be a medic and work in the ER, all you have to do is apply for and get the job -- you've got all the requirements you need. However, a nurse (even doctors) must be certified and licensed as an EMT to work in the field.

 

[Shishkabob]

How are nurses and paramedics "equal"?

Here's a better question: How are we not?

 

[STXmedic]

Here's a better question: How are we not?

Education, pay, and a strong union.

 

[sir.shocksalot]

However, a nurse (even doctors) must be certified and licensed as an EMT to work in the field.

Uh, no. By doctors I assume you mean physicians, who are licensed to practice medicine and require nothing else to practice medicine anywhere. A physician doesn't need a 120 hour certificate to place a bandage on someone in the field, if a physician so chooses he/she may perform open-heart surgery in the field (granted he/she will face the music, but not for some breach in "protocol").
Don't fluff your certificate to be what it isn't. Also, most states don't require anything special for flight nurses to perform pre-hospital medicine other than a doctors thumbs up on standing orders.

Here's a better question: How are we not?

Nursing is regulated by a State board of nursing, which is full of nurses.
Paramedics are regulated by ??? (various agencies depending on state), which is full of nurses, physicians, paramedics and EMTs.

Nurses are licensed to practice nursing.
Paramedics are certified and require physician oversight/approval to do anything. (granted a small difference, but one profession regulates themselves, the other doesn't).

Nursing requires the completion of a national exam that is consistent across the country, and interchangeable among states.
Paramedic knowledge and certification exams vary by AREA CODE.

Most/all nursing text books are written by nurses.
Most/all paramedic text books are written by nurses and physicians.

There are positions in clinical nursing above bedside RN.
There are positions in the fire-department that are completely non-medical above paramedic.

There are nursing certifications that allow completely independent practice.
There are paramedic certifications that are barely worth the paper they are printed on.

The average education of a Nurse (US) is an associates degree.
The average education of a paramedic (US) is just a tad above high school.

Nurses are educated to provide care in a variety of fields.
Paramedic are educated to provide care for short periods of time in select emergencies.

Linuss, don't get me wrong, I want to get paid more, but we have to earn it. Nurses are on their feet in the ER for 12 hours a day. I am typically on my *** 9 hours a day, 3 hours a day I might be standing on a roadside, in a house or where ever doing work. It took a year of moderate work to get my paramedic cert, my RN friend went to school for 4 years and had to complete algebra, chem, a+p, etc etc.

Just because we can often do a lot of the things an RN can do in the ER, doesn't mean we can do all the other things an RN can do. Paramedics CAN NOT work in an ICU. We CAN NOT work in a burn unit. We CAN NOT work in an OR. The list goes on. We just don't have the generalized education required to do all the little things in healthcare that are required of nurses. Most state boards of health won't even allow paramedics to handle blood products. Just because you watched RNs in the ER push all the meds you can push, doesn't mean we have earned the same pay.

 

[Sasha]

Lots of hospitals employ Medics to work in the ER, right along side nurses. Literally, the only difference is that nurses can insert foley catheters and medics can't. Many times, the medics know more about medications and procedures than the nurses do.

So I agree there is an equality issue. In fact, I'll take it to the next step... to be a medic and work in the ER, all you have to do is apply for and get the job -- you've got all the requirements you need. However, a nurse (even doctors) must be certified and licensed as an EMT to work in the field.

Doctors work in ers too. does that mean doctors and paramedics are practically the same? I mean they do some of the same stuff.

 

[Elk Oil]

Uh, no. By doctors I assume you mean physicians, who are licensed to practice medicine and require nothing else to practice medicine anywhere. A physician doesn't need a 120 hour certificate to place a bandage on someone in the field, if a physician so chooses he/she may perform open-heart surgery in the field (granted he/she will face the music, but not for some breach in "protocol").
Don't fluff your certificate to be what it isn't. Also, most states don't require anything special for flight nurses to perform pre-hospital medicine other than a doctors thumbs up on standing orders.

Uh, yes. Don't talk so convincingly about something you know so little about. If you'd like, I can put you in touch with an ER physician who holds an EMT-B certificate and license to run on one of our local services. I've also done clinical time with him, so I think I have some good authority on this. I also know nurses who run with others services in our area, and they too require certification and a state license.

I'm not fluffing up anything, just stating the facts.

 

[Shishkabob]

Nursing is regulated by a State board of nursing, which is full of nurses.
Paramedics are regulated by ??? (various agencies depending on state), which is full of nurses, physicians, paramedics and EMTs.

Here in Texas, the GEMST has 2 nurses on it, and the rest of the members are either Paramedics or MD/DOs

Nurses are licensed to practice nursing.
Paramedics are certified and require physician oversight/approval to do anything. (granted a small difference, but one profession regulates themselves, the other doesn't).

Funny... Texas licenses their Paramedics.

Also funny... an RN ALSO needs physician approval to "do anything"

Nursing requires the completion of a national exam that is consistent across the country, and interchangeable among states.
Paramedic knowledge and certification exams vary by AREA CODE.

Yes, NCLEX is required by all states.
NREMT is required by most, and is consistent across ALL places that administer it, AND most states allow it to be interchangeable.

Most/all nursing text books are written by nurses.
Most/all paramedic text books are written by nurses and physicians.

Funny, looking at a handful of the EMS books nearby me, the majority of writers are Doctors and Paramedics.

There are nursing certifications that allow completely independent practice.
There are paramedic certifications that are barely worth the paper they are printed on.

Correct... but you're comparing a Nurse Practitioner to a Paramedic, when an NP is to be better compared to a PA.

How about we compared DOs with CNAs while we're at it?



Paramedic to RN

The average education of a Nurse (US) is an associates degree.
The average education of a paramedic (US) is just a tad above high school.

So, a nurse will ALWAYS know more than a Paramedic?

They're educated as generalists, we're as specialist. Is anyone arguing that fact? They are designed from the ground up to operate in many difference facets of healthcare, while we are not. Does that make us "less educated"? No, just differently educated.

In general, I've yet to meet a brand new nurse who knows as much about cardiology and emergency medicine as a brand new paramedic. Just as I've yet to meet a brand new medic who knows as much about ob/gyn or other specialized medicine as a brand new nurse.


There are plenty of smart paramedics here who have been in medicine for decades. Are they less able to perform a nursing type job than a brand new, fresh out of school nurse simply because their initial education was different and as such their professional title is different?


You honestly cannot tell me every single nurse is better than every single paramedic due to their initial education being wider. I've met plenty of nurses who questioned my treatment decisions yet were promptly corrected by a doctor stating I was right and that they were wrong.

I've also met plenty of medics who I wouldn't trust with a damn bandaid.

Nurses are on their feet in the ER for 12 hours a day. I am typically on my *** 9 hours a day, 3 hours a day I might be standing on a roadside, in a house or where ever doing work.

I know hospitals that the nurses see 1-2 patients a day.
I know EMS agencies where the trucks are run non-stop, and see more patients in a couple of hours, than the above mentioned nurses see in 2 days.

 

[exodus]

I dont have that option

I hate having bold unread threads on my home screen, I really have to open every one.

You can double click the icon to the left of the title and it marks the thread as read and un-bolds it!

 

[Elk Oil]

Doctors work in ers too. does that mean doctors and paramedics are practically the same? I mean they do some of the same stuff.

No they don't. Doctors prescribe medications and treatment plans for their patients. Nurses and medics do not. Doctors are ultimately responsible for the medical practices in their areas because nurses and medics work under their authority. RNs and EMTs don't craft standing orders, doctors do.

I don't understand why you're insisting on misinterpreting what I'm saying. I wasn't drawing any parallels between doctors and EMTs -- it was between nurses and medics.

I'd ask you, from what I've said, where is the great inequity? Even the schooling is similar if you compare the two-year associates degree program for both nursing and para-medicine.

 

[Sasha]

So you admit that nurses and paramedics are different. IMHO youre comparing grapes to kiwis.

 

[MrBrown]

So you admit that nurses and paramedics are different. IMHO youre comparing grapes to kiwis.

Brown iz Kiwi!

 

[TheyCallMeNasty]

...

 

[sir.shocksalot]

Paramedics are paid exactly what they are worth. If people want to claim they're as good as nurses or doctors or whatever that's fine. As long as EMS stays the way it is you will never have pay on par with either profession.

If you want equal pay to nurses go be a firefighter, they get paid as good as if not better than some nurses.

Employers and society do not place the worth of a paramedic certificate at $60,000+ a year. Employers and society do think that firefighters and nurses are worth $60,000+ a year. Employers and society do not care if you can intubate blind-folded, they don't care if you can push all the meds that a nurse can, they don't care that you "work" harder, and they don't care if you don't get paid your perceived worth.

No matter how many comparisons paramedics wish to stretch to say that RNs and Paramedics are equal the facts are extremely clear... THEY ARE NOT EQUAL. My proof comes from www.bls.gov :
EMTs and Paramedics median pay: $29,328; top 10%: $49,441
RNs median pay: $62,450; top 10%: $92,240

We need to stop pointing the finger at nurses and stuttering "but, but, but, I can do all those things." and start looking at ourselves and asking "why does my employer, along with society, think I am only worth $15/hr". We have a lot to learn from our friends in AUS, NZ, CAN, and the UK, who all have paramedics paid and respected on par with nurses.

 

[Shishkabob]

Professional football players get paid more in a single game then some people make in their whole career.


Clearly they're more important than police/fire/EMS/nurses and doctors, no? I mean, society says they are by how much they're paid....

 

[sir.shocksalot]

Professional football players get paid more in a single game then some people make in their whole career.


Clearly they're more important than police/fire/EMS/nurses and doctors, no? I mean, society says they are by how much they're paid....

I am sure a significant number of football fans would say they are. If I didn't think Tebow was worth the ridiculous amount of money they are paying him I wouldn't have bought his jersey (Although I was drunk prior to the purchase ^_^ ).

Same goes for firefighters, they tell people that if you don't approve the tax increase you will all die in a fire and the terrorists will win and what not. As a result we think a blue-collar trained worker is worth over $60,000.

As unfair as it is that some bench warmer for the Rockies makes more than all of the paramedics at my work combined, the fact is if anyone could be a bench warmer for the rockies, they would be. Sadly, anyone can be a medic, we are paid accordingly.

 

[the_negro_puppy]

Lets not forget that people including myself post negative stuff on here as a way to vent tour frustrations. I prefer to :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: and moan anonymously online than go postal on a patient who called an ambulance for a cut finger lol

 

[LucidResq]

As mentioned above, keep it on topic please.

 

[Elk Oil]

So you admit that nurses and paramedics are different. IMHO youre comparing grapes to kiwis.

I'm not going to continue your foolishness. And I don't want to contribute any more to the hijacking of this thread.

 

[fortsmithman]

Here in Canada most RNs have a BScN and all ACPs have the equivalent of an associates degree. I say the equivalent because Canada does not use Associates degree we call those community college diplomas.

 

[Lifeguards For Life]

Even the schooling is similar if you compare the two-year associates degree program for both nursing and para-medicine.

I don't think it is....

Have you done either?