Armed EMT's

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
4,524
3,348
113
I think YOU & select others would be mature enough ect to carry, but I wouldn't trust 90% of emt's with a firearm.

I wouldn't trust 90% of EMT's with a potato gun let alone a firearm. Want to carry a firearm at work? Join the military or a police department. I see no reason to carry a firearm on duty in a ambulance. A call shouldn't get to the point where you have to brandish a firearm. Where did things like scene safety, common sense, and situational awareness go?
 

NysEms2117

ex-Parole officer/EMT
1,946
909
113
I wouldn't trust 90% of EMT's with a potato gun let alone a firearm. Want to carry a firearm at work? Join the military or a police department. I see no reason to carry a firearm on duty in a ambulance. A call shouldn't get to the point where you have to brandish a firearm. Where did things like scene safety and situational awareness go?
Did you see the "no no no" posts? :D
 

Handsome Robb

Youngin'
Premium Member
9,736
1,173
113
I think YOU & select others would be mature enough ect to carry, but I wouldn't trust 90% of emt's with a firearm. I also carry a firearm because it's my job. I stand a much better chance on using it in parole/LE then I ever will in EMS. My biggest things are: security of the firearm, your hands are often outside of your frame when caring for a patient which is no Bueno for firearm. What happens when you get a call to a school or post office? Whole bunch of things. No. No. No. :).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well much appreciated!

If the bill in TX passed we'd be exempt from gun free zones. That solves that problem. Only place it'd be an issue would be jails/detention facilities where LE has to secure their weapon as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bullets

Forum Knucklehead
1,600
222
63
Why does my constitutional right to carry a weapon and defend myself end when I come to work in a public safety capacity where I'm potentially exposed to violent situations? On the other hand, like desert said, we're generally in far too close of quarters for a firearm to be an effective tool to use to defend yourself.
This is pretty much where i am at. If they are licensed by the state to carry all the other times, why should that change because you out on a different color shirt? As far as training, my local department qualifies twice a year. There are cops who hit the range once a month or more. We also have officer who go the week before quals and never pull their gun out of their holster for another 6 months. So i dont want to hear that cops are some super accurate deadshots. look at the NYPD out front of the Empire State Building


You instincts should tell you to not go into a dangerous situation without police.
Oh you sweet summer child
 

NysEms2117

ex-Parole officer/EMT
1,946
909
113
There are cops who hit the range once a month or more. We also have officer who go the week before quals and never pull their gun out of their holster for another 6 months. So i dont want to hear that cops are some super accurate deadshots. look at the NYPD out front of the Empire State Building
True, but their training is *hopefully* in the de-escalation of threats. An EMT/Medics job is treatment of the patient. There are some LEO's that have guns but never use them. I shoot recreationally and have needed to draw at work, never had to shoot. However there are also anti terrorism folks who train at least once a week, Federal Reserve LEO's same thing, and yada yada yada. Not to mention the inherent danger of having firearms in enclosed spaces, and all that stuff. If EMT's and Medics would like to learn how to handle them in enclosed spaces to lets say the Federal Air Marshal standards, I'd be more open to consider it. But way too many negatives, virtually 0 positives. Call the police for an unsafe scene, run like hell or learn martial arts if it turns unsafe, the likelihood of you actually shooting somebody would be just about 0 anyway. NYSEMS will end speech here.
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
4,524
3,348
113

Old Tracker

Forum Asst. Chief
503
259
63
My $.02 is it depends on where you work and how well you could do. An ambush deal like the dude in Dallas it wouldn't really matter if you had a weapon or not cuz you'd probably not have the chance to use it.It could be locked up inside the rig once you are clear of the scene. Are the municipalities gonna provide the ammo? Qualifying every 6 months isn't enough. Even quarterly, which I did for over 20 years, isn't enough to get really good. The stress I had as a Fed LEO when situations went south was different and in many ways way less than what I deal with now, with a real bad off pt, as a basic with a little more than a year on the job. I also think it would open up a bunch of doors for personal liability as well as municipal liability. Even if it was allowed I'd probably opt out.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
6,196
2,052
113
One question I have is people always use the argument that there's not enough training. If the state says I'm trained enough to carry a gun when I'm off duty, why does that change as soon as I put on a uniform?
I'm still waiting for a response to when I asked that same question
I also carry a firearm because it's my job. I stand a much better chance on using it in parole/LE then I ever will in EMS.
Do you carry when you are off duty, or only when you are at your job? If you carry when you are off duty, why?

Assuming you do carry off duty (and many LEOs that I know do), I am assuming it's more for personal protection, so if Joe Badguy sees you when you are out with your family and decides to take action against you because you sent him back to jail for a petty parole violation, not because you want to go stop an armed robbery on your day off, right?

So what would happen when Joe Badguy decides to do the same when they see you on a 911 call, when you are on the ambulance? And decides to attack you with a 2x4 for sending him back to jail 8 months ago? Do you really think he is going to not do that because it's your day off, and you aren't working the parole job?

My biggest things are: security of the firearm, your hands are often outside of your frame when caring for a patient which is no Bueno for firearm.
You know, your right, I didn't think of that. Our cops are all first responders, so when the ambulance arrives, they are often treating the patient. I'll be sure to tell him they need to leave their sidearms in their car, and make sure they are secured, because "your hands are often outside of your frame when caring for a patient which is no Bueno for firearm."
A call shouldn't get to the point where you have to brandish a firearm. Where did things like scene safety, common sense, and situational awareness go?
Apparently you have never worked in a city that has gang members who are looking to take shots at anyone in uniform. Situations can escalate, often unexpectedly, due to no fault of the EMS provider. Please go work in one of the 20 most dangerous cities in the US, where you don't get cops on every call, and then say "well, I said scene safety, so the scene must now be safe." Oh, and many of those cities don't get a 4 person engine company on every cal to help you out.

There are some LEO's that have guns but never use them.
we only go with lowest common denominator, so we must assume that the average LEO never shoots except when they need to qualify. So if you are ok with them having gun on duty, why are you not ok with and EMT doing the same?
I shoot recreationally and have needed to draw at work, never had to shoot. However there are also anti terrorism folks who train at least once a week, Federal Reserve LEO's same thing, and yada yada yada.
So you admit there is no real standard (other than basic qualifications every 6 months) for how often a LEO NEEDS to practice his or her shooting.... while some people exceed the bare minimum, not everyone does, yet you are still ok with LEOs who fire a weapon every 6 months keeping their guns, and an EMT who goes to the range once a week to maintain proficiency is a danger to all involved, because he's carrying on the ambulance :rolleyes:
Not to mention the inherent danger of having firearms in enclosed spaces, and all that stuff. If EMT's and Medics would like to learn how to handle them in enclosed spaces to lets say the Federal Air Marshal standards, I'd be more open to consider it. .
So do regular LEOs train to handle their weapons to say "the Federal Air Marshal standards?" I am not familiar with it, but I know that any time a LEO transports in the back of an ambulance, with their firearm, they are entering a "enclosed space," and if they have their weapon, and they aren't trained to "Federal Air Marshal standards" than they are as much of a danger as the armed EMT correct? I am not saying they don't have ANY weapons retention training, or enclosed space training, but I doubt its on par with the federal air marshals.
 

EpiEMS

Forum Deputy Chief
3,817
1,145
113
If (anybody other than current LEOs on) my service started carrying, I'd be done in a heartbeat. There is no way I'm risking my safety by having a firearm on the ambulance. And there's *no way* that I would carry myself.

Regardless of the risk, there is a problem of optics: Once people see us as "armed professionals", we become something other than just healthcare providers, we become (a) possible threats and (b) possibly law enforcement. If you get on a scene where there are some...not great...folks around because their buddy needs help, well, if you look like a cop, you're at risk...
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
6,196
2,052
113
despite being attacked multiple times while at work and having a gun pulled on me, I can't come up with a single time when me being armed would have been a good thing.
I would think having a gun pulled on you might justify you drawing on someone else. With @CALEMT saying
If (anybody other than current LEOs on) my service started carrying, I'd be done in a heartbeat. There is no way I'm risking my safety by having a firearm on the ambulance. And there's *no way* that I would carry myself.
that is your choice, and no one would fault you for it. You are also from Ct, a very anti-gun state (just like NJ and NY, and much of the NY Metro area), so I would imaging you walking into a room and seeing 10 legally armed individuals would make you uneasy. As opposed to being in texas, where they call that tuesday afternoon lunch.

and can you explain how having a legal and proficient gun owner and carrier on your ambulance risks your safety, any more than eating lunch in the restaurant with said person?
Regardless of the risk, there is a problem of optics: Once people see us as "armed professionals", we become something other than just healthcare providers, we become (a) possible threats and (b) possibly law enforcement. If you get on a scene where there are some...not great...folks around because their buddy needs help, well, if you look like a cop, you're at risk...
I have news for you: in today's culture, any uniform makes you look like a cop. all having a weapon on you (concealed, not openly carried, which I think is overkill) means if those not great folks do start attacking you, pull out weapons to use you on, and you might be able to put some distance between you and them while you call for help. The current "optics" is that EMS are soft targets; they KNOW we aren't armed, but the same can't be said for joe badguy.
 

VFlutter

Flight Nurse
3,728
1,264
113
What about less than lethal? I could see where a tazer may have it's place with proper training.
 

EpiEMS

Forum Deputy Chief
3,817
1,145
113
The current "optics" is that EMS are soft targets; they KNOW we aren't armed, but the same can't be said for joe badguy.

Hold on, now. Are we talking about generic run-of-the-mill criminals, or are we talking about terrorist types? I think there is a big difference in how these *very different categories* of people treat us.
 

rescue1

Forum Asst. Chief
587
136
43
I would think having a gun pulled on you might justify you drawing on someone else.

I was drawn on by someone who thought it was a good idea to train their dog to respond to the sound of a rifle action haha. So I knock on the door, it opens, I hear the sound of a round being chambered and all I see is a rifle barrel swinging up towards me. So I start backing up and moving to the side and then the guy comes out, puts the gun down, and says "oh that's how I get the dog to shut up". I wish I could say it was the strangest thing I've seen at work.

While I'm sure I may have eventually been found legally justified for shooting him, especially given there were about 3 seconds where I tried to decide which chair to dive behind, I'll continue to take my chances. I didn't work in EMS to kill people, my partner's CPR skills notwithstanding.

I also own a gun and used to shoot semi competitively, I'm not uncomfortable with guns. I just don't think enough of us are shot at a year to justify the increased risk of carrying a gun in close quarters, especially since there are so many other glaring safety problems with EMS (traffic accidents, helicopter/plane accidents, heart disease and general obesity related problems are like 90% of all EMS on the job deaths).
 

NysEms2117

ex-Parole officer/EMT
1,946
909
113
Do you carry when you are off duty, or only when you are at your job? If you carry when you are off duty, why?
I carry off duty when I am ALONE, the only reason i carry off duty is retaliation fear. When i am with my fiance I don't remember a time when I carried.
And decides to attack you with a 2x4 for sending him back to jail 8 months ago? Do you really think he is going to not do that because it's your day off, and you aren't working the parole job?
Are LEO's working EMS really all that popular.. After all everybody on here does say LEO's don't know enough about EMS, surely if there were a quantifiable amount of LEO/EMT's that wouldn't be the case, eh?
we only go with lowest common denominator, so we must assume that the average LEO never shoots except when they need to qualify. So if you are ok with them having gun on duty, why are you not ok with and EMT doing the same?
Just because a LEO doesn't shoot the person doesn't mean they haven't drawn. I've drawn my firearm ready to shoot somebody probably around 10 times, in my short career so far in parole. What is an EMT going to do when they draw? Stand there, wait for the cops to come and do the same thing they are? Last i checked EMT's don't have tasers, or cuffs.
So you admit there is no real standard (other than basic qualifications every 6 months) for how often a LEO NEEDS to practice his or her shooting....
When did I say that? I said that because I shoot recreationally my range quals come easy to me. I have to qualify 4 times a year for parole. The NYC anti terrorism guys are once a month if im not mistaken, same for the federal reserve LEO's. Not to mention they often pick up guys that are <6 months out of being rangers, MFRecon, ect ect.
yet you are still ok with LEOs who fire a weapon every 6 months keeping their guns, and an EMT who goes to the range once a week to maintain proficiency is a danger to all involved, because he's carrying on the ambulance
I'm not sure your understanding this. Retaining a firearm in a safe and effective manner, in a tiny box, closed with various other things in the way(cabinets, chairs, limbs, stretcher/gurney, short ceiling and various other things) is infinitely more difficult, then retaining a weapon outside where you can move around. So yes, I will take the LEO who is outside, can defend themselves adequately *mostly* in close range Hand-to-hand combat(remember theres fighting dirty and fighting stupid when your fighting for your life*we have batons and tasers*), with handling a firearm safely.
So do regular LEOs train to handle their weapons to say "the Federal Air Marshal standards?" I am not familiar with it, but I know that any time a LEO transports in the back of an ambulance, with their firearm, they are entering a "enclosed space," and if they have their weapon, and they aren't trained to "Federal Air Marshal standards" than they are as much of a danger as the armed EMT correct? I am not saying they don't have ANY weapons retention training, or enclosed space training, but I doubt its on par with the federal air marshals.
Which is why I think all LEO's should have to leave their firearms in their trunk safe when they transport on EMS calls. In close quarters combat chances are your not going to be able to draw effectively unless you've practiced it for thousands of hours. I would much rather take my chances with either my Martial arts skills, or my baton.
 

NysEms2117

ex-Parole officer/EMT
1,946
909
113
What about less than lethal? I could see where a tazer may have it's place with proper training.
We should talk about this.
I think we should focus on not killing ourselves or other people in ambulances crashes then revisit this topic.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
AND this.
 

CALEMT

The Other Guy/ Paramaybe?
4,524
3,348
113
that is your choice, and no one would fault you for it. You are also from Ct, a very anti-gun state (just like NJ and NY, and much of the NY Metro area), so I would imaging you walking into a room and seeing 10 legally armed individuals would make you uneasy. As opposed to being in texas, where they call that tuesday afternoon lunch.

So first off its CA... hence CAL EMT... CAL as in California. Second how do you know if I do or don't carry or have 4 different guns in my house? I've been around guns since I was born, I know how to safely handle, load, unload, take-down, and shoot guns. Everybody has a right to carry, just because the law says you can carry doesn't mean you can carry on duty. For this I will go into several reasons why I believe its a bad idea.

#1. Its a tactical nightmare. In the back of the ambulance you're within arms reach of the patient. You draw your gun cause you're scared and lack common sense and situational awareness. Now your firearm is out on the open unholstered... with the person within arms reach of your firearm. Its better to go hands on rather than draw your handgun. The likelihood of someone accidentally getting shot while you're struggling for control of the gun is very very real.
#2. Open carry vs concealed carry. Where are you going to conceal your gun and how fast can you draw it? Most services require you to tuck in your shirt so there goes inside the waistband. Open carry is really the only option unless you want to squeeze a gun in cargo pants and have it moving loosely... yeah no thanks. I don't want my gun banging up against my knee all day. Ankle carry is a option, but then again most services require boots so a mid calf carry is the more practical option. Still not the most comfortable. So back to open carry. Where are you going to carry it? 3 O'clock 9 O'clock? What holster are you doing to use? The problem with open carry ON DUTY is the public will see us as more as a enforcer of the law versus the helping hand.
#3. The I wish a mother ****er would. We all know this one or multiple individuals. These are the people who can't wait to drawn down on someone. The people who look for trouble vs try to stay away from trouble. Do you really want this person in the ambulance who could facilitate a dangerous situation with the patient in the back?
#4. Training. IF you shoot guns Dr.P or anyone else who reads this. Do you honestly feel as if you have enough firearms training? If you said yes, then carrying on duty is definitely not for you. As stated previously I've been around and shooting guns since I could walk and I don't feel like I have enough training with a gun. When it comes to guns you can't train enough. My dad (a LEO of 29 years) was on the SWAT team for 15 years. Those guys spend hours on end at the range every week. Theres a reason to this. You can't train enough, you don't shoot for a week you're not as proficient. Train like you fight and fight like you train. If you train or shoot every once in a while how the hell do you think that you'll be calm, cool, and collective when **** goes down?
#5. Back to the tactical nightmare. Cops train in close distances to go hands on and subdue the suspect vs try to get their gun. Why is this you may ask? Do you really think if in fighting someone that the FIRST thing on my mind is to go to my gun? Absolutely not, my first thought is to gain control of the person. If I pull my firearm while in the middle of wrestle mania 2017 I'm at the disadvantage vs the advantage. I don't have both hands to fight with, I only have one. My gun is out and free. Various things can/could/would happen, I loose grip on my gun and it gets thrown somewhere. Thats the best case scenario. The other scenario is the suspect gets ahold on my gun. Now I'm in a wold of **** because at this point I've completely lost control of the scene and person and would need a stroke of luck to come out on top. All of this just because I pulled a gun in a close quarters fight.

Before you go and make assumptions about someone you may want to do a little research... EMS should learn how to defend themselves i.e. hand to hand combat vs carrying a gun on duty. Also EMS should learn... again... common sense, scene safety, and situational awareness. This isn't something you verbalize just to pass a skills test. This is a dynamic concept of your call meaning your head is on a swivel and looking up, looking down, and looking around until the call ends. I am very pro gun and when the pro gun guy is saying that this is a bad idea then that should be raising flags and people should do some serious internal thought and reflection. Should I really carry on duty and is it the smart thing to do? If you have to think about it then theres your answer... probably not...
 
Top