A real life shooting video

[mycrofft]

Of course, we can culturally shift and start saying "Dead is dead", "Karma, again" or some such and stop trying to save people that badly damaged.

 

[Veneficus]

I tried not to comment on the cops actions.

The way I see it, there were probably a million things that could have been differently in hindsight.

I don't know anyone in law enforcement officer that wakes up in the morning and says "I want to be in a shoot/don't shoot scenario today!"

But the facts I see are thus:

This was a stressful situation from the start.

The police officer was alone, attempting to apprehend a violent criminal.

He was out numbered, in unfriendly territory, and tactically in a very bad position without cover and at least 180 degrees of threat.

For all intents and purposes he was set up to lose. I will not be trapped into saying "in this situation from the safety of where I stand, I would have done..." But I will say he seemed in no position to decide other than shoot/don't shoot.

Only in hindsight from a 3rd person view can we judge whether or not it was the right thing to do. That is simply speculation anyway.

 

[Veneficus]

When I started to recognize the holistic or global approach, then I realized that order and timing of treatment is not like shuffling 3X5 cards, one has to try to find commonalities between cases then identify critical points to intervene; Pareto Principle at work, first 20% gets you 80%of results, but it keep resetting so yo keep finding more 20%'s.

More than once I've seen a patient with everything done well and right, laying there awaiting the coroner.

There is a saying:

"The surgery went perfectly but the patient died"

I simply do not subscribe to that theory. The endgame is a save. We simply cannot save everyone.

But I do think we all have an obligation to remain critical of ourselves and improve.

Perfecting a procedure or system is simply not acceptable. Acute medicine is a goal oriented game. Not everyone can be a champion, but I would rather responders at least be in the major leagues.

 

[mycrofft]

There is a saying:

"The surgery went perfectly but the patient died"

I simply do not subscribe to that theory. The endgame is a save. We simply cannot save everyone.

But I do think we all have an obligation to remain critical of ourselves and improve.

Perfecting a procedure or system is simply not acceptable. Acute medicine is a goal oriented game. Not everyone can be a champion, but I would rather responders at least be in the major leagues.

Being a Boomer, that suits me!
And the saying is sardonic. Some people use it as a wry excuse, but the other half of the meaning (it has double meanings) is that if you did "everything right", then the whole thing or a critical portion of it was not.

 

[mycrofft]

"Interesting to note though that every comment made by people on scene including medics was recorded. Have you ever worked with one of those guys who just can't shut up with what he thinks are witty comments on scene? Or one of those crews that things discussing their dating life while working a patient is pefectly acceptable. Imagine if one of the medics had made a comment on scene like "man this guy must be a priest he's so holy" or similar. Just something to think about." (BigBaldGuy)

This is a good point, BBG.

I missed these comments. Makes me shudder at some of the things I've been know to say when I was young-er.

 

[DrParasite]

With only skimming the previous posts.....

looks pretty "routine." cop goes to arrest someone, reportedly armed with a knife. perp exits the vehicle, armed with a knife. cop orders man to drop the knife, perp refuses, acts aggressively toward the cop (I'm not sure what actually was done, it was blocked by the back of the truck, and you don't see what he grabs for), takes him down. Cops don't shoot to wound, they shoot to kill, especially when faced with an imminent life threat, and in this case, it seems like he felt he was justified. I'm for from an expert, so I'll the attorneys fight that out in court.

One thing I did chuckle at: cops asking where is the ambulance. you shot the guy 3 minute ago (maybe less), and you are already asking where the ambulance is?

family gets involved, and quite honestly, they are properly removed. if they keep interfering, they can be arrested. it's a security thing, and a scene preservation item. the charges probably won't last, but how do you know on of the family doesn't have a gun and is going to start taking out the other cops (and EMS) in retaliation? you go from one bad guy to being surrounded by a lot of potentially emotional bad guys. EMS staying on scene is a bad thing, the sooner you are off the scene, the safer it is for all EMS crews.

from an EMS POV, we would have worked this guy, especially since we have a trauma center in town. Recent trauma, multiple GSWs, load and go. Bleeding control as best as you can, roll onto a LSB (to aid in CPR and carrying, not for spinal precautions), CPR and rapid transport to trauma center. CPR isn't going to save this guy though, he needs bright lights and cold steel, and even then, there is a good chance he is going to die.

If they just pronounced, when the lawsuits were filed, the cops would blame EMS for not helping the dying person, the family would sue ems for not helping the gsw victims, and while the medical community might agree the person wasn't going to make it, the court of public opinion would have definitely found against the EMS crew, especially when they get some expert who said the life could have been saved (even if that expert is full of crap). it's a police involved shooting, where the person was off the scene in, what, 12 minutes from the time of injury? yeah, while this person is probably dead, that determination is going to be made in the safety of the ER, not on scene.

As for the whole everything getting recorded, watch your cops. if they have a mic on their tie, or they have a recorder with a light on, there is a good chance you are being recorded. many PD's have a system that automatically turns on the audio recorder when the emergency lights are activated, or if it is manually activated.

 

[JPINFV]

Yup, atleast the family has the consolation that someone tried to help him... and not just left on the lawn to die. If that even means anything.

I think you could justify working this either way.

I think there's a difference between "helping" by providing futile care and "helping" by showing you give a darn enough to examine the patient, call it, and emotionally treat the family. The police, being lay providers, should focus on "doing something." EMS, by being professional providers, should examine the patient, if the patient has injuries incompatible with life or resuscitation, call it, and treat the family.

 

[mycrofft]

I'd do both, they expect EMS to "do something" besides use their senses and training to tell them their loved one is gone.

I am impatient around people who wail and throw themselves on the ground etc. And this family would have me afraid they would take out some of their rage at the police on me as some sort of responder.

 

[abckidsmom]

I'd do both, they expect EMS to "do something" besides use their senses and training to tell them their loved one is gone.

I am impatient around people who wail and throw themselves on the ground etc. And this family would have me afraid they would take out some of their rage at the police on me as some sort of responder.

That is one important takeaway from the video. The first cop, if he'd responded to emotional "he needs to DO SOMETHING!" cries, might have taken his gun off of the woman, and gotten himself killed. She was not under control, and she posed a huge risk for him. That was the only part that was really hard to watch, him drawing down on her in her grief, and wondering if she was going to reach for a weapon and get herself shot as well.

 

[Achilles]

That is one important takeaway from the video. The first cop, if he'd responded to emotional "he needs to DO SOMETHING!" cries, might have taken his gun off of the woman, and gotten himself killed. She was not under control, and she posed a huge risk for him. That was the only part that was really hard to watch, him drawing down on her in her grief, and wondering if she was going to reach for a weapon and get herself shot as well.

Ya that may be true but that cop was still a douche for doing that, and I would have helped the man despite what that cop said. What that cop did was excessive.

 

[Veneficus]

Ya that may be true but that cop was still a douche for doing that, and I would have helped the man despite what that cop said. What that cop did was excessive.

I think he was just scared. Just my reaction from his body language.

 

[medic417]

Ya that may be true but that cop was still a douche for doing that, and I would have helped the man despite what that cop said. What that cop did was excessive.

Do not judge until you've been there.

 

[ffemt8978]

And that's enough of this one. I warned everyone to keep the discussion related to EMS, but some people decided to take it off topic anyway.

Thread closed.