9/11 Tapes

[MMiz]

Has anyone reviewed the 9/11 tapes at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8926416/ ?

It's chlling to listen to.

[Edit: removed remarks: Non-responding members were trapped in WTC]

 

[Rangat]

Im listening to them now... Very interesting.


I'm sorry for your country all over again.

It is also interesting to imagine how different the commands would have been had they known what we know now...

 

[MMiz]

I started off listening to them thinking:

1. I can't believe how slow the dispatcher is talking
2. The dispatcher has a horrible membory and has no clue where his commanders are
3. There are several command posts, all saying they are THE command post, but each isnt

Then the towers collapse and the voices I heard on the radios no longer respond. At one point an EMT is the only one responding for several minutes. The dispatcher commands "Find someone with a white helmet and give them the radio." It doesn't happen.

They werent trained for this but did what they could in an extraordinary time.

 

[Rangat]

:blink: In the LOBBY of the WTC? aw man...

 

[ECC]

Originally posted by MMiz@Aug 20 2005, 09:05 AM
I started off listening to them thinking:

1. I can't believe how slow the dispatcher is talking
2. The dispatcher has a horrible membory and has no clue where his commanders are
3. There are several command posts, all saying they are THE command post, but each isnt

Then the towers collapse and the voices I heard on the radios no longer respond. At one point an EMT is the only one responding for several minutes. The dispatcher commands "Find someone with a white helmet and give them the radio." It doesn't happen.

They werent trained for this but did what they could in an extraordinary time.

I was an Paramedic Lieutenant prior to moving to greener pastures in 2002, let me fill you in on a few things:

NYC ran a 560 ambulance/tour day. That means that in the course of 24 hours there was 560 eight hour ambulance tours. On Tour II (the Day shift) this equated to about 130 ambulances on the road. These units are supervised in the field by: 5 Deputy Chiefs, ~5 Captains, and ~20 Patrol Lieutenants. The patrol Lieutenants did all the supervision...the Captains supervise the Lieutenants and the D/Cs do not come out unless necessary. I personally was responsible tof the entire western portion of Brooklyn when I was on patrol...this included upwards of 15 ambulances. Not a real good supervisor/member ratio.

For EMS the Dispatcher is not interested in hearing from the EMT's and Paramedics on the scene of an MCI once an officer is present. That is the procedure for EMS...that EMT was not giving her the information she needed. Therefore, she told the EMT to get a boss on the radio. I know the dispatcher, she was operating under stree that I hope you will never experience, and I personally believe you can never really understand. When I was assigned to the Communications Bureau, I held her in high esteem, as she was our 'go to' dispatcher, whenever there was any problems, we simply put here on the radio, and things ran very smoothly.

As for training: where do you go to train for a terrorist attack of this magnitude? This simply was the largest Mass Casualty Incident ever. There was no way to prepare for this. We got by with good decision making by those who finally got things under control and with experienced personnel making the right calls. Not everything that happened was transmitted over the radio.

As for your remarks about multiple command posts: Those who were declaring command were in violation of the EMS Operating Guide. There was only one, and that was from the first arriving supervisor who assumed 'Operations' (EMS does not have command). However, if you cannot find operations after millions of of tons of debris has just collapsed, then you must make do with what you can. No? It is possible under the ICS that EMS ran under to have multiple sectors for the same incident...as a matter of fact I was the Liberty Sector boss and the Morgue Sector Boss (more times than I care to remember).

Lastly about the knowing where your Commanders are: Many of them were disoriented themselves, and were trying to grasp what had just occurred...I think they all did just fine.

 

[MMiz]

Wow,

I think you read my message the wrong way. You have to understand that I'm just commenting on what I heard from the tapes and what I put together from my memory of 9/11.

First, I listened to the dispatches from a male dispatcher. "Brooklyn K" was what everyone said prior to transmitting and what he followed all this transmissions with.

At a cetain points on one of the tapes (17-21) the dispatcher would have was asking for communication from anyone out in the field, just hoping to form some sort of contact.

I'm saying absolutely no one had any idea of an MCI of this magnitude. I'm not faulting any of their behavior or how anyone acted. The last time I ran an MVA with a pt being called on scene I crapped my pants with dispatch. It was a mess. I'm not saying anyong did a bad job, but there was mass confusion as could be expected.

There absolutely was a command structure, but as expected, it was disorganized. Again, I'm not faulting anyone, but I'm just recognizing the mass confusion during the whole ordeal.

I believe I was listening to fire dispatch and not EMS dispatch. I only heard a few EMS call on scene and the dispatcher correcting them that they shouldn't be on this frequency for this MCI.

Dispatch sounds different at the private company and local dispatches I hear. I sometimes tune into Detroit's dispatch on the scanner and am amazed at how long they seem compared to ours.

Whereas the dispatcher on the tape would say something like:
Ladder 453: Ladder 453 Brooklyn K
Dispatch: Ladder 453 go ahead
Ladder 453: Blah Blah
Dispatch: Ladder 453, Brooklyn K copies, blah blah blah
Ladder 453: Ladder 453 copies Brooklyn K, thank you.

Same converation with local dispatch:
Ladder 453: Radio Ladder 456
Dispatch: 53
Ladder 456: Blah Blah
Dispatch: 10-4 53. Blah Blah Blah
Ladder 453: Clicks mic

Usually a message isn't transmitted unless one needs to be. People tend to use mic clicks as 10-4s and simplify when they can. Of course the radios transmit the Unit ID with the radio, but that really seems to be the norm around here with PD, Fire, and even EMS. I'm the only one that says "Thank you" during a transmission and my partner always laughs.

It was just weird for me to hear more drawn our converation, especially during a time when many people were trying to communicate.

The tapes are hard to listen to, and I can't correct anything they did, the dispatchers and crews on scene did an amazing job for the circumstances they were in. Many times I found myself pausing the player and coming back to it later because I didn't want to hear the person not respond. I didn't want to hear several people radioing for help but not getting through.

I can't even imagine being in any first responders shoes that day and again think everyone did a great job for the difficult circumstances (understatement of the year).

 

[ECC]

If you were listening to the Fire Tapes, I have no comment about them. I was working for EMS that morning. You also must remember, any sound of emotion in any officer's voice on the radio in NYC (this includes Fire and EMS) is taken as a sign of weakness. When I get on the radio out where I am now, I get post assignment calls from dispatch where they ask how I can stay so calm on the radio...years of practice, and a belief that this is not my emergency...it belongs to the civillians, I am just here to make things right.

Thank you for clarifying whet you were saying...Hindsight is always 20/20 and those who like to armchair quarterback other's jobs are entitled to their opinion, but mebbe not to share it as candidly as they may want to. This is not to say you are armchair QBing this job, but from my perpesctive, not all opinions are welcome...especially hyper-critical ones.

Thanks again!

 

[Speed]

I listened, and read. Very powerful. That's all I really have to say about it.

 

[Jon]

Originally posted by MMiz@Aug 20 2005, 02:06 PM
First, I listened to the dispatches from a male dispatcher. "Brooklyn K" was what everyone said prior to transmitting and what he followed all this transmissions with.

Just to correct the small point... I belive that in FDNY, as with NYPD, all transmissions are ended in "k" thereby they were calling "Medic XX to brooklyn, K"
Brooklyn being the dispatcher for Brooklyn.

FYI - "K" is the message you transmit in morse code to say "Over".. I belive NYC picked it up many moons ago, back before repeaters, courtsey tones, and digital radios, as a way to shorten "over"


And then all of us whackers out in the boonies have started copying it.... I do it occaisionally to yank a dispatcher's chain.... "10-4, k" (Espicially since we don't use 10-codes ). When I used to work with PArescueEMT, he and I would copy a local county's dispatch style for the day.... "Network from Medic 403b (B being added to signify BLS) or Sqaud 403, or Basic 403. One day, we did the "radio" and "K" thing.... the dispatcher loved it...

Jon

 

[Chimpie]

I'm only on Tape 2 right now. Tower 2 just collapsed.

It's :unsure: listening to all the traffic.

 

[trauma1534]

No one knows what these guys went through except for them. It is totally unfair to talk them down as I have heard so many people do... ie: "they should have handled it this way and thatwould not have happened," etc. I think these guys did the very best they could with what they had to work with. Can you just imagine getting a call of that magnitude and you get there and the one you rode there with is now dead, or the one you had dinner with last night is now trapped? Can you imagine being there with the thausands of people running around crying for thier loved one and you are doing all you can do, dealing with the stress of possibly loosing your partner, or running up on inicent people who have been blown to pieces? The mental torture is unimaginable! It bothers me when people want to judge those guys and say they were not on thier toes... how would you be? It's easy to say what you think you would do, but you nor I have no clue what we would do in the given situation. There is not enough training in this world to prepare a provider for something like that.

To anyone who was there on 9/11 at the scene, you guys did your thing and did it well. I commend you for your efforts, and you are HEROs in my book. I'm surprized most of them didn't turn in thier certifications after that. I am sure that there is not a day that goes by that you don't flash back to that September morning.

This was not directed towards anyone in particular, I was just stating my feelings about the way some people want to harp on the way things were handled. The departments and dispatch did one hell of a job and no one should take anything away from them.

I am listening to the tapes now, and I am sure that there is much more behind the scenes than what meets the eye!

 

[rescuecpt]

trauma, I don't think anyone here is talking down about it, just commenting on what they heard and saw. It could appear that way though, but I don't think that's the intent.

I refuse to listen to the tapes. I can't. I cried all the way through Ladder 49 because it made me think of the people I knew who were trapped in the WTC. (Some knew they were trapped, some never saw it coming.)

 

[Stevo]

a sad recounting of a sad day

yet would your sorrow turn to anger if you knew that certain factions ignored the warning signs, or worse ignored them to let it happen to achieve an agenda?

~S~