12 Lead EKG?

Doctor B

Forum Crew Member
30
0
0
Originally posted by MedicStudentJon@May 27 2005, 11:47 AM

I dissagree...

How can you be certain they aren't having a massive MI either before the accident, or as result of stress and anxiety related to the accident?

A great medic once told me to never rule out chest pain, just because they were in an accident. Too often we look for simple excuse for our problems.

Jon

~ P.S. I'm not attacking you, just illistrating a different point of view.
Jon,

No offense taken and I can certainly appreciate your point. The intent behind the comment was certainly not to look for the simple excuse for the problem. It is simply meant to motivate our medics to do like you imply and be more thorough in their assessment wether it be through verbal questioning or hands on. I have even had the pt. with the MI that caused the accident. I believe however that with proper questioning of the conscious trauma patient you can rule out a myriad of underlying problems. Getting into questions about their chest pain can certainly help with that. By simply asking them, " does the chest pain feel like it's on the surface or inside?" Did you have the pain before the accident, if so does it feel the same now or is it different and how?" "Does the pain worsen with inspiration/ exhalation, or with palpation?" "Do you have pain anywhere else with it?" are just a few to start and certainly not the end all.
Obviously if the pt. is unconscious the questioning goes out the window and you need to rely on other tools (i.e. EKG changes; irregularity, T-wave progression, ST elevation in Lead II, even though it only can show the possibility of an Inferior Wall MI) most times unless your transport times are long the 12-lead falls down low on the priority list of an unconscious trauma victim.
Like you stated, it is definitely the great medics that can make the differential diagnoses CORRECTLY and not take the easy way out. My philosophy is and has always been, BE AGGRESSIVE, for it's better to be in front of the 8 ball than behind it. All my patients are treated like they are a member of my family because that is what I would expect if I or a loved one were to ever need emergency medical services.

Great point Jon.

Thanks
 

ECC

Forum Captain
389
0
0
Doctor B is right...try to stay inhead of the 8-ball...it is awfully hard to get back there once you let it in front of you!
 

medic03

Forum Lieutenant
125
0
0
Originally posted by ECC@Jun 1 2005, 02:37 PM
Doctor B is right...try to stay inhead of the 8-ball...it is awfully hard to get back there once you let it in front of you!
wait, are we talking about EMS or shooting pool... I'm confused.... :lol:
 

medic03

Forum Lieutenant
125
0
0
Originally posted by ECC@May 27 2005, 03:13 PM


Did Medic03 throw you a beatin for this?!?!? ;)

Oh, I have... I have.
Erika, no offence to you guys in nY who are CC's, but you just don't get enough training. You hit the nail on the head when you say that "I do not deny that CC's know what to do, while P's know WHY to do it. That is the major distinction."
That is a HUGE distinction. Any monkey can pop an iv in or tube, it's understanding what is going on with the pt and why you are doing something that is very critical in the care for the pt. Any pt with AMS in NYC can get d50, thiamine and narcan standing orders, no questions asked. The trick is to find out why the pt has AMS and treat that problem, not use a blanket policy and give the d50 and narcan. A good history and understanding your meds and what they do will help treat your pt better, insted of playing chemist and loading them all up on every drug that a person can give under standing orders. I'm not attacking you or saying you suck (you know I love ya) I'm just saying that I feel that the cc's in the county do not get enough training and are thrown to the wolves. You either sink or swim and that it's. I don't think it;s fair that they put you in class 2X a week and expect you to have the same knowledge as the medics and docs when you call medical control or bring a pt into the hospitals. Thee are some great CC's out there, but the majority of them stop learning after they get out of class. The other big diffrence is that the majority of CC's are doing this as a volly thing at their local FD or Ambulance corp, where there are ony a handful of medic that are doing this only as a volly, almost all of them are paid somewhere. I have no idea why anyone would want to go through medic class and then just volly..... Screw that, I worked too hard to get where I am to just volly. No offence to you at all or to any CC on these boards from NY, but it doesn't matter if there are only a few diffrences in standing orders between the medics and CC's, it's the knowledge that's behind the training that's what's important. I wouldn't care if they took all my standing orders away. Now Erika, since we know eachother and a lot of the same people, would you really want some of the EMS providers we know taking care of you or your parents? How about "Tool" from where I use to belong? Or the current student that rides with my when I work the overnights at your corp? Both nice people, but the training and lack of skill isn't there, but they both will have their ALS cards and can staet giving meds like crazy if they wanted.
Again, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you or putting you down personally, I'm not, and if it wasn't for you guys we wouldn't have any als on Long island. I'm just stressing the point that it's not about who can do what, when and how much they can give, it's about understanding why you are doing something and what it's going to do to the pt when you give it.
 

Ridryder911

EMS Guru
5,923
40
48
Doctor B...

Bob Page has an excellent acroynm for the
I S A L

I

See

All

Leads


A good way to remember..

Be safe,
Ridrtder 911
 

rescuecpt

Community Leader Emeritus
2,088
1
0
Originally posted by medic03+Jun 2 2005, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (medic03 @ Jun 2 2005, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ECC@May 27 2005, 03:13 PM


Did Medic03 throw you a beatin for this?!?!? ;)

Oh, I have... I have.
Erika, no offence to you guys in nY who are CC's, but you just don't get enough training. You hit the nail on the head when you say that "I do not deny that CC's know what to do, while P's know WHY to do it. That is the major distinction."
That is a HUGE distinction. Any monkey can pop an iv in or tube, it's understanding what is going on with the pt and why you are doing something that is very critical in the care for the pt. Any pt with AMS in NYC can get d50, thiamine and narcan standing orders, no questions asked. The trick is to find out why the pt has AMS and treat that problem, not use a blanket policy and give the d50 and narcan. A good history and understanding your meds and what they do will help treat your pt better, insted of playing chemist and loading them all up on every drug that a person can give under standing orders. I'm not attacking you or saying you suck (you know I love ya) I'm just saying that I feel that the cc's in the county do not get enough training and are thrown to the wolves. You either sink or swim and that it's. I don't think it;s fair that they put you in class 2X a week and expect you to have the same knowledge as the medics and docs when you call medical control or bring a pt into the hospitals. Thee are some great CC's out there, but the majority of them stop learning after they get out of class. The other big diffrence is that the majority of CC's are doing this as a volly thing at their local FD or Ambulance corp, where there are ony a handful of medic that are doing this only as a volly, almost all of them are paid somewhere. I have no idea why anyone would want to go through medic class and then just volly..... Screw that, I worked too hard to get where I am to just volly. No offence to you at all or to any CC on these boards from NY, but it doesn't matter if there are only a few diffrences in standing orders between the medics and CC's, it's the knowledge that's behind the training that's what's important. I wouldn't care if they took all my standing orders away. Now Erika, since we know eachother and a lot of the same people, would you really want some of the EMS providers we know taking care of you or your parents? How about "Tool" from where I use to belong? Or the current student that rides with my when I work the overnights at your corp? Both nice people, but the training and lack of skill isn't there, but they both will have their ALS cards and can staet giving meds like crazy if they wanted.
Again, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm attacking you or putting you down personally, I'm not, and if it wasn't for you guys we wouldn't have any als on Long island. I'm just stressing the point that it's not about who can do what, when and how much they can give, it's about understanding why you are doing something and what it's going to do to the pt when you give it. [/b][/quote]
No, I totally hear you - although I will probably knee you if I'm not one of the "good CCs" you referenced... A lot of people stop learning - but a lot of people don't. It would be nice if there was more instruction in the CC course, but there's only so much you can cram into a "non-professional" cert - and I say that because most agencies don't pay anymore for a CC than a Basic. You know if the pay cut wasn't so huge I'd probably be in the medic class in the fall, but I really can't make that sacrifice. Anyways, there's a short list of people I'm calling before the ambulance if I ever need it - you, Nat, Brian, Alex... :p

But you are totally right. However, there are a lot of medics I've met who are just as bad as the two people you mentioned... I think Con Ed requirements for CCs should be stricter - right now the only Con Ed that's required is advanced airway and anything you need to refresh. There should be mandatory updates at least quarterly.
 

ECC

Forum Captain
389
0
0
Originally posted by rescuecpt@Jun 3 2005, 08:13 AM
No, I totally hear you - although I will probably knee you if I'm not one of the "good CCs" you referenced... A lot of people stop learning - but a lot of people don't. It would be nice if there was more instruction in the CC course, but there's only so much you can cram into a "non-professional" cert - and I say that because most agencies don't pay anymore for a CC than a Basic. You know if the pay cut wasn't so huge I'd probably be in the medic class in the fall, but I really can't make that sacrifice. Anyways, there's a short list of people I'm calling before the ambulance if I ever need it - you, Nat, Brian, Alex... :p

But you are totally right. However, there are a lot of medics I've met who are just as bad as the two people you mentioned... I think Con Ed requirements for CCs should be stricter - right now the only Con Ed that's required is advanced airway and anything you need to refresh. There should be mandatory updates at least quarterly.
Boy I am glad I made the cut!

























Oh, wait...I am not on the list! :blink:
 

rescuecpt

Community Leader Emeritus
2,088
1
0
Originally posted by ECC+Jun 3 2005, 08:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ECC @ Jun 3 2005, 08:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-rescuecpt@Jun 3 2005, 08:13 AM
Anyways, there's a short list of people I'm calling before the ambulance if I ever need it - you, Nat, Brian, Alex...  :p

Boy I am glad I made the cut!

Oh, wait...I am not on the list! :blink: [/b][/quote]
C'mon Chris, you're nowhere near me. If you were here or I was in CO, then you'd be on the list. :p
 

Doctor B

Forum Crew Member
30
0
0
Originally posted by ridryder 911@Jun 2 2005, 08:38 PM
Doctor B...

Bob Page has an excellent acroynm for the
I S A L

I

See

All

Leads


A good way to remember..

Be safe,
Ridrtder 911
You're exactly right!
Bob is a great EKG instructor and has done a few classes at our department as well as for the CCEMT-P class at Loyola. I used the same acronym and just applied it to the correct myocardial walls.
I would say to anyone who has the opportunity to attend one of Bob Page's lectures regarding EKG interpretation no matter what level you are at, DO IT! You won't be sorry. (Oops, are we allowed to plug instructors and their classes here?) If not Mods feel free to delete. Sorry
 

DT4EMS

Kip Teitsort, Founder
1,225
3
0
12 leads are the standard around here too and have been for several years. I was against them at first. Once I went through the class I changed my mind.

Like Bob Page says "There are only two types of medics, those who read 12 leads and those who will."
 
Top