Staten Island man dies after being taken down by police

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46Young

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Handsome Robb said:
According to the FDNY both the BLS and ALS crews are patient care restricted because of this incident.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2014/07/emts_and_paramedics_who_respon.html
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Pending a meeting with the Medical Director no doubt.

http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/

It was hospital based EMS, not FDNY EMS. They're as good as fired at this point. The hospital will most likely let them go due to the negative press.
 
I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.

Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.
 
Handsome Robb said:
I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.

Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.
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The cop had his left arm around his neck for only a brief moment. I wouldn't really call it a chokehold. It would have to remain applied to be called a hold, after all.

I could see why the EMT would, at first, be relatively nonchalant by asking if he could walk. There were numerous occasions where a perp starts acting up after getting the bracelets, making up medical complaints, thinking that they can get out of the arrest by going to the hospital. I get this with traffic stops too, with drunks claiming that they're diabetic, or faking wheezing and saying that they have asthma. I've seen similar scenarios to Garner's numerous times, where the perp flops around and complains about breathing and other stuff after getting arrested. The fake seizures can be amusing.

If a perp c/o diff breathing, I would do a quick assessment including L/S, SpO2, capno and B/P, then make them walk. I don't carry people, especially when they weigh well north of 300#, when they're faking illness, or even if they are a little sick but stable. I like to state aloud "to my partner" but really everyone in earshot how our findings suggest that nothing's wrong. For example, the drunk "diabetic" with a BGL of 150 and normal vitals at the accident scene.
 
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Handsome Robb said:
I personally don't think they should be allowed to work in EMS anymore after that display. I hate to Monday morning QB because I wasn't there but that was a display of pure lack of competence.

Apparently it's not the first time this cop is in hot water either. The chokehold he used isn't allowed per NYPD although I don't think the chokehold is what killed him, my guess would be positional asphyxiation.
Click to expand...

The cop had his left arm around his neck for only a brief moment. I wouldn't really call it a chokehold. It would have to remain applied to be called a hold, after all.

I could see why the EMT would, at first, be relatively nonchalant by asking if he could walk. There were numerous occasions where a perp starts acting up after getting the bracelets, making up medical complaints, thinking that they can get out of the arrest by going to the hospital. I get this with traffic stops too, with drunks claiming that they're diabetic, or faking wheezing and saying that they have asthma. I've seen similar scenarios to Garner's numerous times, where the perp flops around and complains about breathing and other stuff after getting arrested. The fake seizures can be amusing.

If a perp c/o diff breathing, I would do a quick assessment including L/S, SpO2, capno and B/P, then make them walk. I don't carry people, especially when they weigh well north of 400#, when they're faking illness, or even if they are a little sick but stable. I like to state aloud "to my partner" but really everyone in earshot how our findings suggest that nothing's wrong. For example, the drunk "diabetic" with a BGL of 150 and normal vitals at the accident scene.
 
Only had time to watch a quick part of the video, but it sure as heck looked like he was not breathing when the female emt came on scene and she didn't do anything...
 
46 I totally agree. I've seen it quite often as well and I too make them walk. However this guy is very obviously apneic for an extended period of time. That's where my issue with it is. Also, her pulse check she states there's a pulse however leaves her hand there forever and doesn't say it with confidence. That makes me think she couldn't find it and/or was feeling her own. Can't find one? Grab your ears and auscultate for an apical pulse.

The choke was released but it's a no-no to use it as a restraint, which he did in the process of taking him to the ground.

I'm the last person to say F the police, got a lot of friends who are cops and they're great people. This guys got a history and now his and his fellow officers' actions resulted in a fatality and they need to be held accountable for it. Stop and frisk is no longer allowed and from everything I've read it seems like what they were basically trying to do.
 
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teedubbyaw said:
Only had time to watch a quick part of the video, but it sure as heck looked like he was not breathing when the female emt came on scene and she didn't do anything...
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I agree, I didn't see any respiratory effort at that time. If it were me rolling up on this patient, I would have checked for breathing, and then a hard sternal rub or twisting the skin on the inside of the upper arm. The police probably painted a picture of BS to the EMT's, but you still have to make sure that they're not in real distress before going into shenanigans mode.

Maybe it's just me, but with anyone that's obese and heading towards middle age, I'm going to be suspicious of some degree of CAD and HTN, and the possibility of being diabetic/pre-diabetic, all of which increase my suspicion of MI/CVA/sudden death. When you weigh as much as two people, your physiologic reserve can be quite poor.
 
Handsome Robb said:
46 I totally agree. I've seen it quite often as well and I too make them walk. However this guy is very obviously apneic for an extended period of time. That's where my issue with it is. Also, her pulse check she states there's a pulse however leaves her hand there forever and doesn't say it with confidence. That makes me think she couldn't find it and/or was feeling her own. Can't find one? Grab your ears and auscultate for an apical pulse.

The choke was released but it's a no-no to use it as a restraint, which he did in the process of taking him to the ground.

I'm the last person to say F the police, got a lot of friends who are cops and they're great people. This guys got a history and now his and his fellow officers' actions resulted in a fatality and they need to be held accountable for it. Stop and frisk is no longer allowed and from everything I've read it seems like what they were basically trying to do.
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No one uses apical auscultation, but they should. Even the AHA says that trained medical providers are lousy at taking pulses. I agree, she didn't seem to sure about the pulse.

You're right, chokes and stop & frisk are not allowed. There are better ways of taking someone down. Stay within the rules. Don't they teach any judo or jiu-jitsu in the academy? The guy is huge, but he's obviously far from fit. It shouldn't have been too difficult to out-maneuver him. I'm joking, but you can even go back to grade school tactics and have one cop crouch behind him while the other one pushes him backwards.
 
I propose that becomes the new standard takedown. :lol:
 
I'm really reluctant to watch the video of that poor man dying, but I'm wondering how you can see that he's not breathing? Even in person, most of my patients' respiratory efforts are pretty subtle.

Btw, if I walked up on a 350# patient like that, my first thought would probably be, "Damn, he can't walk?" too. Just goes to show we really need to watch what we say and how we present ourselves. You never know when you're being recorded. :/
 
Rin said:
I'm really reluctant to watch the video of that poor man dying, but I'm wondering how you can see that he's not breathing? Even in person, most of my patients' respiratory efforts are pretty subtle.
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It was pretty clear even on my cell phone that he was apneic.
 
Not trying to be that guy but with experience it's very easy to see a resp effort. He had none.
 
She didnt do anything

The EMS worker did absolutely nothing but check his pulse. He was clearly unresponsive. His eyes were wide open. Didn't check the airway or breathing. Didn't do anything to check his responsiveness. Clearly he wasn't moving or speaking back. No c spine. Nothing!
 
Aggressive police + Incompetent EMS = Brilliant combination

Well that was one of the most appalling displays of brutality by police and incompetence by EMS that I've ever seen. It's truly sad to say, but neither surprises me a bit.

The cops think nothing of using deadly force against a guy who is causing harm to no one, and though the murder victim was clearly apneic (and likely pulseless) before EMS even arrived, the EMS princess keeps speaking to him as if he is going to respond.

Lucky for EMS, the chances of successfully resuscitating this guy were close to zero, so their (lack of) action is unlikely to be found a proximate cause of his failure to survive. Lucky for the cops, they can pretty much do anything they want to people with little risk of anything sticking to them.

My humble predictions:

  • The city will settle, without admitting fault, long before this goes to a civil trial

  • There may be a token federal civil rights investigation, but if so, it will find no evidence of such a violation

  • The cop(s) who murdered this guy will be reprimanded but not fired or charged, and the brave city police will keep using whatever means necessary to protect the citizens from the awful dangers of voluntary exchange involving individually sold cigarettes

  • A cursory investigation will find that the medics who showed such enviable assessment skills did nothing wrong at all, and city EMS crews will continue to provide the exact quality of care that we expect of them
 
Sally21 said:
The EMS worker did absolutely nothing but check his pulse. He was clearly unresponsive. His eyes were wide open. Didn't check the airway or breathing. Didn't do anything to check his responsiveness. Clearly he wasn't moving or speaking back. No c spine. Nothing!
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Quite frankly to me it sounds like the one officer is coaching her into to saying that she feels a pulse. Spending plenty of time around LEOs it's pretty obvious that they're aware he's apenic, and probably pulseless very early soon after he's on the ground. The loss of composure is pretty evident, and they fall further down the rat hole, by just trying to ignore it. I hate to say it, but it seems like they may very well have relayed their findings and game plan to the arriving EMS crews off camera...
 
Remi said:
The cops think nothing of using deadly force against a guy who is causing harm to no one, and though the murder victim was clearly apneic (and likely pulseless) before EMS even arrived, the EMS princess keeps speaking to him as if he is going to respond.
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A take-down is considered deadly force now? Hmm... I was wrestling with my brother today good thing I didn't murder him :rolleyes:

And while I agree he wasn't harming anyone, he certainly wasn't cooperative when they were talking with him.
 
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terrible one said:
A take-down is considered deadly force now? Hmm...
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I tell you what, let's try an experiment to find out:

  1. You and a gang of your friends go out in public and find an obese person who isn't harming anyone but who looks like an easy target.

  2. Walk up to them and heroically start demanding personal information and threatening them.

  3. When your prey refuses to answer your questions, have one of your gang put him in a choke hold from behind, then have every one else in your gang bravely pile on.

  4. After your gang manages to wrestle your victim to the ground, place him prone and then sit on him.

  5. Ignore your victim when he tells you that he can't breathe. Also ignore the fact that you've been taught that difficulty breathing is a known complication of the prone position.

  6. When you are arrested for murder, just tell them "it's OK; what we did was just a takedown - it wasn't deadly force."
Good luck with that.


terrible one said:
And while I agree he wasn't harming anyone, he certainly wasn't cooperative when they were talking with him.
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You are right, he wasn't cooperative. My bad; I forgot that not wanting to answer stupid, harassing questions gives the cops the right to kidnap and/or kill you.

/////////
 
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Or you can try this experiment, when an officer tells you to do something just do it.
 
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