I don't want to work with someone who has no interest in medicine/health

thegreypilgrim

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Why is EMS the only field where nobody is actually interested in the subject matter contained within it? I can probably count on one hand the number of partners I've had that I could actually "talk medicine" with; and, had more than a passing interest in the subject. Even more broad aspects of medical/health disciplines such as public health or other matters are difficult to come by.

Why do I have to have partner after partner whose professional interests encompass primarily different fields than medicine or healthcare?

This unique feature of EMS confounds me. In no other field do you see this happening. You don't see engineers talking about moving into, say, graphic design; or architects talking about becoming elementary school teachers; or physicians becoming lawyers (which, curiously, sometimes DOES happen).

Why, then, is this acceptable in EMS? People who study organizational behavior would have a field day with this, and it's frankly just mind-boggling that it has reached its current scale and level of entrenchment into conventional wisdom.

This, I feel, is the pathognomonic feature of EMS. It's the source of all the problems we have, and correcting it is the only way to turn the situation around.
 
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because EMS is primarily an entry level job, especially in our area. when you pay 9.50 starting you are not going to attract anyone to seek a career in this field. the majority of EMTs that I know do not want to be in EMS very long and are only using it to build work experience.
 
because EMS is primarily an entry level job, especially in our area. when you pay 9.50 starting you are not going to attract anyone to seek a career in this field. the majority of EMTs that I know do not want to be in EMS very long and are only using it to build work experience.

Well, see that's what I'm talking about. Why is this permitted to continue? Anyone with any sort of administrative education from some other field would immediately recognize this as a pathological element. Their organization is attracting entirely the wrong people, and corrective action would take place.
 
Well, for starters how many fields indoctrinate their students not to think about their field during initial education/training? Is it any surprise that EMTs and paramedics do not discuss medicine when any discussion usually ends up with someone in authority (either EMS teachers or supervisors) pulling the "we're not doctors" line?
 
...Is it any surprise that EMTs and paramedics do not discuss medicine when any discussion usually ends up with someone in authority (either EMS teachers or supervisors) pulling the "we're not doctors" line?

Sssssh ..... *Brown slinks away and removes the insert that has "DOCTOR" written on it in big green letters from the back of Brown's orange jumpsuit :D

Physician? No. Allied health professional? Yes
 
There's a significant number of people in education who are just there to:

-serve their 3 years as a classroom teacher so they can move up to administration

-be able to be the high school football (or whatever) coach

-have health insurance, since most states will let anyone with a bachelors in anything teach with a provisional license, and move on as soon as their real field hires again.

It's obnoxious to work with them. And the kids don't learn too much, which is the whole point of working there.
 
Allied health professional? Yes

Are most paramedics in the US really professionals? Is treatment X appropriate for Y because it is (be it expert opinion, or varying levels of evidence) or is treatment X appropriate for Y solely because the protocol says so? One is a professional train of thought. The other... isn't.
 
Are most paramedics in the US really professionals? Is treatment X appropriate for Y because it is (be it expert opinion, or varying levels of evidence) or is treatment X appropriate for Y solely because the protocol says so? One is a professional train of thought. The other... isn't.

But, but... it's protocol... we have to follow it!
 
Are most paramedics in the US really professionals? Is treatment X appropriate for Y because it is (be it expert opinion, or varying levels of evidence) or is treatment X appropriate for Y solely because the protocol says so? One is a professional train of thought. The other... isn't.

You make a good point.

According on the NTHSA EMS Agenda for the Future the Paramedic (ALS) person is an "allied health professional". Sad, when even the IAFC EMS Section guidebook defines somebody who is "Paraprofessional" as having an Associates Degree or higher and a "professional" as being Bachelors or Graduate degree ... yet the Agenda does not speak of requiring tertiary education.

Is it sad that the Fire Unions sort of advocate a higher level of education (in a roundabout indirect way) than this widely applauded Agenda, which is in reality, a lot of smoke and hot air?
 
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Well, for starters how many fields indoctrinate their students not to think about their field during initial education/training? Is it any surprise that EMTs and paramedics do not discuss medicine when any discussion usually ends up with someone in authority (either EMS teachers or supervisors) pulling the "we're not doctors" line?
That's actually a very good point you make there. I can recall numerous instances where what could have been deep, intellectual debate on medical practice was halted by the dreaded "we're not doctors" line. Including a debate I was having with a former classmate over transporting code blues. Because I'm not a doctor, that somehow invalidated my views on the futility of transporting dead people.

If you breed a culture of stupidity, either directly or indirectly by trying to invalidate debate and opinion based on credentials alone as opposed to the facts, you get what EMS has become in America. Am I a doctor? No, by no means. Does that mean I don't know anything about medicine or that I am incapable of becoming an expert in (at least some areas) of medicine? I guess to some people it does. And if I never become a doctor, maybe that will mean people will never consider me an expert in (again, some areas of ) medicine, but that doesn't mean I or any other paramedic dedicated to expanding their knowledge should stop. There's nothing stopping us from becoming experts in emergency medicine, nothing but ourselves. If we want to become experts in emergency medicine, we have to actually become experts in medicine, and we have to be smart enough and confident enough to stand up to the scrutiny of those who will refuse to accept that anybody but a physician can truly be an expert in medicine. It's not like the didactic material is some hidden secret that never leaves the walls of a medical school; it's a matter of people being unwilling to seek higher education and lacking the discipline to study it on their own.

And all too often, either as a result of fire based (and yes, even non-fire based) services promoting and breeding a culture of low educational standards, or paramedics who say "Why bother, it won't increase my salary?" becoming apathetic towards the idea of bettering themselves, do we content ourselves to be "just paramedics" as opposed to striving for clinical and professional excellence.

I'm a paramedic and I'm Associate's elegible (getting the degree this spring, when the rest of the college graduates). I'm working on my Bachelor's and I'm going to be bridging to nursing next year. I may never get into med school or PA school or enter into any other program that grants me the title of a higher practitioner. But if anybody thinks that that means that I'm not going to do everything in my power to become not only an expert in emergency medicine, but well acquainted with ALL aspects of medicine, they're sadly mistaken. And I may never get any sort of respect or recognition for that, and people may always say to me, "Well, you're not a doctor," as if that means I'm incapable of knowing anything more than a little bit about medicine, but I remain undeterred.

We have to yearn for more, we have to strive for more, and we have to take comments like those as a challenge to step up our game and prove the dissenters wrong. Anything less is truly being "just a paramedic". And we're capable of so much more, our friends overseas have proven that.
 
Here's another paradox that has confused me. If EMS providers are supposed to blindly folow protocols because, hey, you're not doctors, what the heck is the purpose of CMEs for EMS providers? Oh, hey, I just learned this new treatment, maybe we should..." "WE'RE NOT DOCTORS!" "Oh, that's right... opps... sorry."
 
Here's another paradox that has confused me. If EMS providers are supposed to blindly folow protocols because, hey, you're not doctors, what the heck is the purpose of CMEs for EMS providers? Oh, hey, I just learned this new treatment, maybe we should..." "WE'RE NOT DOCTORS!" "Oh, that's right... opps... sorry."

It would seem that the purpose of CME's is to refresh the info that rots away every year because the paramedic just follows the cookbook, as in "see A, do B." I guess some providers never bother to advance their medical knowledge because they'll never be able to apply it. NYC is a perfect example. We had to call OLMC to jump protocols. For example, if I was treating what I thought was a COPD exacerbation, and it was really APE, I would have to call to get nitrates and CPAP started. Forget about running an in line neb. Common sense stuff like NC O2 instead of high flow NRB was discouraged. I was dripping in D50 mixed in a 250 CC bag for pts with delicate veins five years ago. My dept finally wrote that into protocol, and you won't see that in NYC anytime soon. We had to leave off the fact that the D50 was diluted, even though we were doing right by the pt. When I firsr became a medic in 2005, we were still giving a blanket unresponsive cocktail, D50, narcan, and thiamine, even though we knew it wasn't going to do anything in certain cases, and it's a rare case where all three would actually be indicated for the same pt.

Edit: sidenote, in NYC, I'm told that the FDNY buses don't even carry CPAP! We were doing trials with CPAP at my hospital back in 2005. We kept it, and a few other hospitals have it, but not FDNY EMS, which is like 60-70% of NYC EMS.
 
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This isn't going to change anytime soon in the US at least. People get into EMS a lot of the time just because it's a somewhat better paying entry-level job and they get to "help people." In Southern California however, the more common reason is "I want to be a firefighter." It's just how things are, I can relate with pretty much anyone, so I think that's kept me from going crazy over the years with all the strange partners I've had.

In response to the comment about the treatment therapy, the problem with the algorithms is that they are just that; algorithms. That's why most protocol guides make mention of this fact. Every call is dynamic in nature and paramedics need to understand the pathophysiology in order to best treat a patient. Unfortunately, there are a lot of healthcare providers who couldn't care less and simply remember what they "need to know." Which is unfortunate because it reflects poorly on all of us.
 
Wherein the Grey Pilgrim gives a firetender a soapbox!

Why is EMS the only field where nobody is actually interested in the subject matter contained within it? Why, then, is this acceptable in EMS? People who study organizational behavior would have a field day with this, and it's frankly just mind-boggling that it has reached its current scale and level of entrenchment into conventional wisdom.

No one ever admits that EMS is a transient's field. But the statistics show it.

People just don't (as a whole) stick around all that long. It's a field that occasionally attracts people with lifetime dedication, but at its bottom line, not many people can even picture themselves doing this work 20 years from their start date.

Without acknowledging it consciously, from the very beginning you sense that your body, mind, spirit, psyche -- you name it; SOMETHING for sure -- isn't going to be able to tolerate these kinds of abuses for very long.

When you look at most FNG's you see a romance-driven attitude of hopes of plucking people from the jaws of death. The reality of the field is you mostly fail and times in-between are usually spent hauling flesh. Since it doesn't usually get better, isn't there a part of most of us keeping our eyes open for greener pastures and searching more wildly with every passing year?

Nope, I'm wrong; everyone wants to go FD. Why? Because it ain't ALL about EMS then; there ARE lights at the end of the tunnels.

Once you're "inside" regular EMS you learn that career tracks are limited to a very select few, and mostly to those who play the game best according to the needs of their particular service or system. No matter where you turn you can't avoid feeling part of something less than a vital protection agency.

Pay is WAY out of step with the responsibilities you carry, recognition is virtually non-existent and day after day you find yourself barraged with the worst of the worst. And, to top it all off, actually talking about the realities and the discrepancies, outrages and exploitations are discouraged if not punished.

Why pick up a book when you and most of your peers know in your guts -- and will never admit-- "Guess I'll set a spell, but soon, I'll be gone."
 
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Firetender, however how much does this exact issue play in pushing some people away from EMS? The entire, "Just follow the protocols and don't think too hard" was the main factor that I didn't consider EMS more seriously as a long term career, especially growing up in So Cal. I wasn't going to go into a field where the only places I could conceivably be happy were the cream of the croup agencies that everyone and their Mom seems to want to work for.

On the other hand, no one can use the "Well, you aren't a doctor" card anymore on me... (well, after 2013 at least).
 
"Just follow the protocols and don't think too hard" was the main factor that I didn't consider EMS more seriously as a long term career, especially growing up in So Cal. I wasn't going to go into a field where the only places I could conceivably be happy were the cream of the croup agencies that everyone and their Mom seems to want to work for.

The model for EMS has turned in to an extension of the Johnny and Roy culture -- a Cop/Soldier clone where non-questioningly "administering" drugs ordered was the function of the paramedic.

The problem is, you see, when paramedics think, they want more; they want to do more they want to try more things they want to be involved more and they may even want to challenge you more; about the pay, recognition, input and all the other things that keep operations moving smoothly and predictably. They MIGHT even begin to challenge the judgments of the Powers that Be!

I'm not accusing anyone of anything but I can't help but observe that the people who sign the pay checks are happy to do what they can to continue the culture of transience in EMS personnel.

From a business standpoint, doesn't it make sense to finance a transient's temporary shot at death-defying for chump change rather than nurturing the career and support the life of a long-term asset?

The people that need to start talking about this stuff, and BUILDING a profession THEY can be proud of are today's EMS personnel. They have to be willing to expand their learning ALONG WITH their commitment to support each other in re-defining the field based on what it is, NOT on what is most economically viable.
 
Why is EMS the only field where nobody is actually interested in the subject matter contained within it? I can probably count on one hand the number of partners I've had that I could actually "talk medicine" with; and, had more than a passing interest in the subject. Even more broad aspects of medical/health disciplines such as public health or other matters are difficult to come by.

Why do I have to have partner after partner whose professional interests encompass primarily different fields than medicine or healthcare?

This unique feature of EMS confounds me. In no other field do you see this happening. You don't see engineers talking about moving into, say, graphic design; or architects talking about becoming elementary school teachers; or physicians becoming lawyers (which, curiously, sometimes DOES happen).

Why, then, is this acceptable in EMS? People who study organizational behavior would have a field day with this, and it's frankly just mind-boggling that it has reached its current scale and level of entrenchment into conventional wisdom.

This, I feel, is the pathognomonic feature of EMS. It's the source of all the problems we have, and correcting it is the only way to turn the situation around.

The solution is simple.

If you want to talk about medicine, quit fooling around and go to medical school.
 
I think people leave the field because:

(1) It's inherrently stressful. Some of this stress can be mitigated by having better management, better pay / working conditions -- but ultimately doing EMS means exposing yourself to a certain type of horror, like the occasional pediatric cardiac arrest. Some people realise they've had enough of this.

(2) There's a lack of lateral movement. Once you work as a paramedic / EMT, you're pretty much committed to working on an ambulance (or maybe, a fixed wing or helicopter). There's relatively few management positions, clinical education positions, in-hospital positions, etc. They exist -- but it's not like being an RN, where if you get tired of the ER, you can work the neuro ICU, or take a job in case room, or public health.

(3) Back injuries are rampant. A medic / EMT who can't lift is going to have a very hard time finding work. This is partly because we (like the general population) don't take care of ourselves. It's also because we do a lot of awkward lifts.

(4) Shift work, and emergency services, wreak havoc on family life. It's hard to understand why your spouse is so moody on a Friday, if you haven't worked a monday-friday schedule in 10 years. It's hard to keep track of time passing when you have an abrupt reset at the end of the last night shift of each tour. You see things that you often can't share with your spouse, either because it will upset them, or because they won't be able to understand. There's plenty of upset, stressed out people in EMS, and marriage-ending infidelity is extremely prevalent.

(5) Pay is a factor in some regions. Personally, I didn't find it a problem -- but I think I was quite well paid as far as paramedics go. A new medic in the service I was in probably makes about $65,000 - 70,000 a year right now, if you include training hours, early/late trips. But it was a problem early in my career when I was doing 24 hour EMT shifts in rural nowhere for $70/day (6on/3off).

My experience was very much that people left at the beginning, in the first five years, as they realised how poor the working conditions were for EMTs in all but the marquee, unionised services, that were primarily looking for paramedics, or 1001 Firefighter-EMTs. When you train enough people to EMT level each year to fill every available 911 spot in the region -- it's natural that a lot of those people won't find work. It seemed like there were a lot of younger people who moved on with a couple of years of their medic -- as they realised that being a paramedic doesn't suddenly change the nature of the job. You have more responsibility, more interventions, more change to do good and to do harm. But the same social problems and system problems exist at every level.

A lot of the female EMTs/medics would leave after having kids. Trying to find daycare for an EMS worker's kids is hard. You never know when you're coming home. The shift might end at 1700. But you might not walk in the door until 2000. Your 14 hour night shift, might just become 18 hours with some bad luck and the wrath of the SSM gods.

Myself, I actually miss EMS. I felt I got good pay. I felt I had healthy coping mechanisms. Had I gone to medical school when I was 22, things might have been different -- but now, I'm not sure the cost/benefit works out. Helping people is a fundamentally decent thing. That's what EMS is about; fixing problems and helping people. While I didn't feel that my management respected me, and sometimes it depending on the RN and the MD and the given night, I wasn't always sure whether the hospital did. I was never quite certain that the community really valued what I did. But I thought it was worthwhile. I thought it was something to be proud of.

I disagree, by the way, that if one wants to talk about medicine, one should go to medical school. I would agree that if you want to be a medical expert, this, or selected clinically-focused lines of research, are the two pathways. But I don't believe it's wrong for a paramedic to want to talk medicine. The best physicians I have worked with have always encouraged this. There just needs to be a realisation that we are physician-extenders, not physicians. We treat disease in the community in situations where it's not possible/desirable/cost-effective to have a physician present. We move people between the site of their injury/disease process and the hospital, or between two different facilities. That's ok. That's a unique competency within medicine.

One of the better parts of being in EMS, for me, was feeling that I was helping build something better. I admit, I didn't feel like this every day. But on the good days, I felt like I was a very small part, of creating something very important.

All the best.
 
That is one thing that Brown has found really weird, in the US it seems you are pretty much stuck to working on an ambulance .... here you can advance to the Rapid Response Unit, Motorcycle Response Unit, HEMS or become a Team, District or Regional Manager, Rural Support Officer, Clinical Standards Officer or Clinical Educator.

We have grown our Clinical Standards Officer role since 2005 and seen a group of really good ambo's move sideways to spending some of thier time off the road doing clinical support, audit and mentoring. They are an absolutely fantastic asset especially with the Degree becoming mandatory and provide an absolutely invaluable tool for learning and development.
 
In Southern California however, the more common reason is "I want to be a firefighter."

This I can relate to. In my EMT program, I'm only 1 of 3 people who wants a career in EMS, not fire. Mostly everyone else is going for fire academy, 2nd would be PA school and nursing would be 3rd.
 
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