Thinking about an army career 68w

[Firemanfred55]

Thanks

 

[Luno]

Maybe not the right choice for you...

Thanks for your comments. When it comes to F6 landing in a hot zone, yes I expect to take fire that’s why they have gunners. I rely don’t have a problem working in a war zone; my only true concern is what you mentioned about the units fillings toward my beliefs. (Thinking about that before comments)
As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.
I will look into John Pryor.

Hmmmm, okay, most points have been covered, but Medevac Helos don't have gunners, and the no weapon/non-combatant thing will last until you get the order to carry a weapon. Then you will be disobeying a lawful order. I am actually well versed in the SDA/medic history in WWII having been raised SDA, however, I'd be very careful, since the "modern" army in my opinion doesn't have a role for soldiers that refuse to fight. In basic training, you will be required to familiarize yourself and qualify with a weapon, in AIT you will have to carry a weapon during your FTX, and most likely, you will deploy with a weapon. TRADOC's message has been pretty definitive that you are a soldier first, MOS second, and that means as the soldier's creed states "deploy, engage and DESTROY the enemies of the United States of America in close combat." If I were you, I would look other than the military if the taking a life conflicts with your beliefs, because not everyone has to take a life, but why would you put yourself in that kind of situation? If this is something that you are concerned about, I would try to talk to an SDA chaplain, and they can perhaps give better guidance.

 

[Tommerag]

2. I'm would join as noncombatan(for religious reasons ) how does that effct the MOS?

Do you mind explaining what you mean by that? As in you wont kill anyone if it come down to it? If so you the military is probably going to consider you a "conscientious objector" and not let you enlist.

Realistically there is no such thing as a non-combatant these days. You don't see just Infantry, Field Artillery, etc (Those are combat MOS's) being killed its also MP's, Transportation, etc (Non-combat MOS's) also being killed.

 

[Firemanfred55]

What I mean when I say “religious reasons” is that being raised in the(Adventist) church I have been tallit and firmly believe that the taking of a life is wrong. Now I know we can argue self-defense, and I understand that point of view, but when you enter someone else’s home, country, or property with the intent to use deadly force that’s where I stop.
So why join the military? As a 68w/one day F6 I truly believe I’ll be there to help and I know I can do that without caring a gun.
Also I do understand that non-combatant’s get killed, that’s not my fear, my fear would be dying(not saying I will) while doing something I believe is wrong.
And if I can’t join then it wasn’t meant to be.

 

[Firemanfred55]

If your still a practicing Adventist and have taken a life how did you deal/justify it ?(not being judgmental truly want to know)Always intended to talk with my pastor, just beginning my research into army medical side of things.
Like I pointed out with Tommerag if they don’t except me then I’ll move on.(trying to get as much info as possible before talking to a recruiter)

 

[HotelCo]

I said it before: if you won't fire your weapon at someone, then don't join. You don't care if you die? That's fine, it's your choice, but don't endanger other's lives by joining and then refusing to fire when it's needed.

Check out the peace corps if you want to travel, they have things available. I believe doctors without borders accepts paramedics as well.

 

[Sandog]

The problem with working in a CASH is you do not really have any choice for your duty assignment when you first get out of basic and being a male you will more than likely go to a line unit. If you are truly that insistent try to get M6 put in your contract which is a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN/LVN) you stand almost no chance to goto the line and will be in a CSH (Combat Support Hospital) or MEDAC (Medical Activity) IE stateside hospital unit. The army is in desperate needs of M6's too so it shouldn't be all that difficult to do.

My sister was a Nurse in the military but she was an officer, retired colonel.

As far as these contracts you speak of, I was in the service back in the 70's and the only contract we had was a school guarantee, things must have changed. The OP might want to consider going Navy as a corpman, good chance of serving on a hospital ship or other vessel. There is always a chance of combat medic, but maybe with this new contract thingie they can work something out :unsure:

 

[usafmedic45]

If you were ever in a fire fight in my section and failed to return fire which resulted in a casualty I would make sure you spent some time in FT Leavenworth.

In a lot of units, he'd be lucky to survive to see Leavenworth. Plenty of enemy weapons laying around....just saying.

It would be an honor to give my life doing what I love and believe is right

That attitude will go away as soon as you start seeing those around you getting wounded and killed.

I did a quick run down on Dr. John Pryor and I think your misunderstanding me

I think you're misunderstanding me. The point is that there is no such thing as a non-combatant in the modern deployed military and while I respect your beliefs, someone espousing them quite frankly is a poor fit for the nature of warfare.

If you are truly that insistent try to get M6 put in your contract which is a Licensed Practical Nurse (LPN/LVN) you stand almost no chance to goto the line and will be in a CSH (Combat Support Hospital) or MEDAC (Medical Activity) IE stateside hospital unit. The army is in desperate needs of M6's too so it shouldn't be all that difficult to do.

Unless he gets lucky and winds up in a MEDAC slot, he's still probably going to have to be ready to kill someone to defend the location if worst comes to worst.

As far as negligent homicide, it would be a hard fault case knowing that the army knew well in advance(contract) what my beliefs are.

Under the UCMJ, it's something like a 90+% conviction rate at courts martial. Ostensibly you're "innocent until proven guilty" but when the jury is stacked with senior officers and senior enlisted (read as: guys with a lot of combat experience who have probably killed quite a few people themselves), you really don't want to test that theory of yours.

As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.

You really just don't get it do you? You can't simply refuse a direct lawful order because you disagree with it regardless of your justifications. As Affilixion pointed out, you pretty much sign your life and beliefs away when you raise your hand for the oath of enlistment.

Like I pointed out with Tommerag if they don’t except me then I’ll move on.

Snowball's chance in hell of that.

trying to get as much info as possible before talking to a recruiter

Rule #1 of the military (at least prior to bootcamp): All recruiters are trained, professional liars who will tell you anything it takes to get you to sign up.

Also I do understand that non-combatant’s get killed, that’s not my fear, my fear would be dying(not saying I will) while doing something I believe is wrong.

Then don't go in the military.

 

[Tommerag]

I completely agree with usaf's last post.

From you answers you given. I can tell you the military isn't going to be for you.

Everyone gets a weapon. Your trained to kill with your weapon. You need to accept that and if you can't (which you've made pretty clear you can't) don't bother joining you are a conscientious objector. You would be refusing to do your military duty of killing someone if it came down to it. What do you think basic training is? Aside from becoming accustomed to military life it is also basic infantry training, ie learning how to kill.

If you dont know what a conscientious objector is, check the link.

 

[Sandog]

I completely agree with usaf's last post.

From you answers you given. I can tell you the military isn't going to be for you.

Everyone gets a weapon. Your trained to kill with your weapon. You need to accept that and if you can't (which you've made pretty clear you can't) don't bother joining you are a conscientious objector. You would be refusing to do your military duty of killing someone if it came down to it. What do you think basic training is? Aside from becoming accustomed to military life it is also basic infantry training, ie learning how to kill.

If you dont know what a conscientious objector is, check the link.

As a veteran from the Vietnam era I know the term conscientious objector all too well, technically the OP is not a conscientious objector as he is willing to participate in the military only he refuses to hold a gun. I still think OP should talk to the Navy

 

[Tommerag]

As a veteran from the Vietnam era I know the term conscientious objector all too well, technically the OP is not a conscientious objector as he is willing to participate in the military only he refuses to hold a gun. I still think OP should talk to the Navy

Well the thing is he is going to have to hold and operate a gun at one point or another.

 

[ffemt8978]

As far as spending time in jail for my religious beliefs that the army would be fully aware of (contract)not really worried about that.

It's been a while since I signed a military contract, but from what I remember of it, NOTHING in it allowed this type of exemption but I could be wrong. Even guaranteed schooling is not guaranteed, it is conditional.

The contract to join the military is absolutely ironclad in protecting the interests of the government, and while it may appear to protect your interests also, it does not.

So lets say you join the military, and are given orders to deploy to a combat zone. Let's further say that you are issued a weapon and given orders to use it...we'll be generous and say you're only ordered to use it in self defense.

Let's take it one step further and continue down the line of comments you've posted in this thread. You refuse to carry the weapon or use it because of your religious beliefs, believing that your "contract" will shield you from being court martialed and jailed.

Given this scenario, here is a quick and dirty (but by no means all inclusive) list of charges you could face:

Article 90—Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer
Article 92—Failure to obey order or regulation
Article 99—Misbehavior before the enemy
Article 134—General article

Article 99 is the doozy on that list, since it's maximum punishment is the death penalty, and it is not conditional upon being at war. Article 90 also has a death penalty clause, but only for times of war.

If you're truly intent on joining the military and being a medic, and still abiding by your beliefs, then you should seriously consider the Navy as has been previously mentioned.

There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself. I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.

 

[Sandog]

There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself. I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.

You spoke most eloquently and no further phrasing required as even I caught the drift, so fear not, no need to ban yourself... ^_^

Seriously OP, what is your thinking behind joining the Armed forces ? If you want to serve the public and help people there are many, many ways to do that in the civilian sector. Take medic for example, how about fire, another noble profession IMHO...

As my pappy a Korean war vet use to say, you can't have your cake and eat it too...

 

[Sandog]

Well the thing is he is going to have to hold and operate a gun at one point or another.

Yes, of course you are right. I had to shoot targets in basic and performed drills in the service, but as a shipboard sailor, I never had to use a gun on a actual person. Can't say the same for those Navy that served on PBR's.

 

[ffemt8978]

There is an even bigger aspect to this, but I'm not sure how to phrase it that won't result in me having to ban myself. I'll work on it and see if I can post it later.

Okay, I think I figured out how to say this so here it is. I would like to thank the others that I am quoting to help make my point.

I said it before: if you won't fire your weapon at someone, then don't join. You don't care if you die? That's fine, it's your choice, but don't endanger other's lives by joining and then refusing to fire when it's needed.

The above quoted post sums up this nasty little aspect very well. You have the right to believe what you want in the military, but you DO NOT have the right to risk the lives and safety of your fellow members because of your beliefs. You expect them to protect you, and they expect you to protect them...it's that simple. When that expectation is not met, then people get hurt and die - even in peace time. Do you really want to have to explain to a mother, father, wife, or child that their loved one isn't coming home because you beliefs wouldn't let you protect them? If so, do you really expect anybody in the military to risk themselves in any way to protect you? And if you directly responsible for another person's death, how does that reconcile with your beliefs against taking a life? (I realize in that scenario, you're not pulling the trigger but wouldn't you be morally just as responsible as the person who did?)

In a lot of units, he'd be lucky to survive to see Leavenworth. Plenty of enemy weapons laying around....just saying.
Unfortunate, but true.

That attitude will go away as soon as you start seeing those around you getting wounded and killed.
Honestly, if it gets to that point then it's probably too late.

I think you're misunderstanding me. The point is that there is no such thing as a non-combatant in the modern deployed military and while I respect your beliefs, someone espousing them quite frankly is a poor fit for the nature of warfare.
Like sandog said, they're called the Armed Forces for a reason.

Unless he gets lucky and winds up in a MEDAC slot, he's still probably going to have to be ready to kill someone to defend the location if worst comes to worst.
Or he would allow several of his fellow service members to become captured, wounded or even killed all in the name of keeping his beliefs.

Under the UCMJ, it's something like a 90+% conviction rate at courts martial. Ostensibly you're "innocent until proven guilty" but when the jury is stacked with senior officers and senior enlisted (read as: guys with a lot of combat experience who have probably killed quite a few people themselves), you really don't want to test that theory of yours.
Yep...can't add to this one.

You really just don't get it do you? You can't simply refuse a direct lawful order because you disagree with it regardless of your justifications. As Affilixion pointed out, you pretty much sign your life and beliefs away when you raise your hand for the oath of enlistment.

Then don't go in the military.

usafmedic45's post was spot on in every aspect.

This thread has caused me to go back and look at the Oath of Enlistment, and it also sheds some light on this topic.

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

In that oath, I see requirements for supporting and defending the Constitution, bearing true faith, and obeying orders. What I don't see is any exemptions.

 

[Tommerag]

If you know people in the military and here them say "Yeah I just signed my life away". Its dead serious you have literally just signed your life away to your country. You also are not supposed to express your views on your elected officials as well, specifically the President. Whether you like him or not, he his now your highest ranking officer as the Commander in Chief.

 

[Sandog]

Okay, I think I figured out how to say this so here it is. I would like to thank the others that I am quoting to help make my point.


The above quoted post sums up this nasty little aspect very well. You have the right to believe what you want in the military, but you DO NOT have the right to risk the lives and safety of your fellow members because of your beliefs. You expect them to protect you, and they expect you to protect them...it's that simple. When that expectation is not met, then people get hurt and die - even in peace time. Do you really want to have to explain to a mother, father, wife, or child that their loved one isn't coming home because you beliefs wouldn't let you protect them? If so, do you really expect anybody in the military to risk themselves in any way to protect you? And if you directly responsible for another person's death, how does that reconcile with your beliefs against taking a life? (I realize in that scenario, you're not pulling the trigger but wouldn't you be morally just as responsible as the person who did?)


usafmedic45's post was spot on in every aspect.

This thread has caused me to go back and look at the Oath of Enlistment, and it also sheds some light on this topic.


In that oath, I see requirements for supporting and defending the Constitution, bearing true faith, and obeying orders. What I don't see is any exemptions.

Can I get an AMEN brothers in arms. Could not be spoken better, shear brilliance in wording. Might I add one more thing to your wonderful prose, when in combat soldiers do not fight for God and country, they fight for their buddies. If your not willing to do what it takes to save a brethren, then take a look at your understanding of your belief system.

Not to get all biblical and all, but...

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

This one is the best, nuff said?

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.

Point is, even the bible tells you there are times when it is appropriate to take arms...

 

[Tommerag]

Amen

 

[Afflixion]

I do agree that he does not belong in the military except maybe as a chaplain, however the derogatory comments and innuendo is not necessary. The man asked a simple question and from that has stemmed one of the largest threads on the forums. Think about this though, less than 10% of Americans are fit to serve in the military whether it be physical or mental, of that 10% only 10% will actually enlist. So despite this mans belief system which you are making a mockery of he wants to serve his country, which sadly most here have not and would not (not necessarily the posters of this thread.)

I merely suggested one way he may be able to serve in the position he wants, though the likelihood of that coming to fruition is low, there is no need to tread upon a man's dreams. I am a deist personally, but do not make a mockery of any religion because it goes against the accepted norm.

In response to what someone said about not being able to get M6 in your contract, it does happen I have met quite a few people who had it in their initial contract.

CPT Mendoza
PA-C, SP

 

[Sandog]

I do agree that he does not belong in the military except maybe as a chaplain, however the derogatory comments and innuendo is not necessary. The man asked a simple question and from that has stemmed one of the largest threads on the forums. Think about this though, less than 10% of Americans are fit to serve in the military whether it be physical or mental, of that 10% only 10% will actually enlist. So despite this mans belief system which you are making a mockery of he wants to serve his country, which sadly most here have not and would not (not necessarily the posters of this thread.)

I merely suggested one way he may be able to serve in the position he wants, though the likelihood of that coming to fruition is low, there is no need to tread upon a man's dreams. I am a deist personally, but do not make a mockery of any religion because it goes against the accepted norm.

In response to what someone said about not being able to get M6 in your contract, it does happen I have met quite a few people who had it in their initial contract.

CPT Mendoza
PA-C, SP

Hold on thar bubulooie... who made derogatory remarks to the OP? I think everyone has been quite polite and has simply stated that perhaps the guy is looking into a field for which he would have much discomfort with. Correct me if I am wrong.