Does anyone here belive in occult spinal injury?

usalsfyre

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The other thread has got me thinking, does anyone here actually believe in occult spinal injury? Not a patient who was not conscious enough to properly assess them via NEXUS, but patients with non-significant physical exam findings who have a spinal injury. You know the EMT class story that "he walked in the ER but if he had turned his head this much"...

Every patient I have ever had with a spinal injury was either unconscious or had a PROFOUND sense that something was wrong with their neck, to the point of ignoring all other injuries no matter how gruesome. Anybody ever seen any different?
 
Only in the ICU, on day 2 or 3, when the life threatening trauma issues start to subside and the patient is no longer sedated. I've never seen it in the field, but I believe in it, if that's worth anything.
 
Had one last year. Drunk, walking around on scene, refused treatment. After almost 30 minutes he passed out. Boarded him and transported. He ended up with C6-C7 fx. Last I heard, he ended up getting use of legs back, but with permanent numbness in legs.

Have seen others in sports injuries, that spinal fx's did not show till later. Adrenaline is a powerful thing!
 
The other thread has got me thinking, does anyone here actually believe in occult spinal injury? Not a patient who was not conscious enough to properly assess them via NEXUS, but patients with non-significant physical exam findings who have a spinal injury. You know the EMT class story that "he walked in the ER but if he had turned his head this much"...

Every patient I have ever had with a spinal injury was either unconscious or had a PROFOUND sense that something was wrong with their neck, to the point of ignoring all other injuries no matter how gruesome. Anybody ever seen any different?
It does happen. It's not exceptionally common, but it does happen pretty frequently.

BTW, when someone uses the phrase "occult spinal injury" they are generally referring to something like SCIWORA (Spinal Cord Injury Without Radiologic Abnormality), etc.
 
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I think that occult spinal injuries are rare but do occur, although I also think it's important to discriminate between clinically significant and non-significant injuries. I think clinically significant but occult spinal injuries are so rare as to be almost mythical, although I am certain there are some examples.

Of course I don't have anywhere near the experience to come to such a conclusion based on personal anecdote. My claims of extreme rarity are based on the large body of literature that looks at the prevalence of injuries missed by good exam (nexus/canadian c-spine).

We can all read the studies, but sometimes the perspective and anecdote of experts is more valuable. As part of a broader panel discussion, there is an excellent discussion (by two of the NEXUS authors) of the extremely few fractures that would have been "missed" in the huge population of NEXUS patients HERE. Dr. Mower starts the discussion, and Dr. Jerry Hoffman talks about the single patient thought to most likely have a fracture actually missed by exam...a patient who walked out AMA and...well...I'll leave the ending a surprise.

That part of the discussion starts at 22:35 (though it is preceded by a great discussion of other issues including the aforementioned "distracting injury" issue which I consider worth the time spent watching)
 
Have seen others in sports injuries, that spinal fx's did not show till later. Adrenaline is a powerful thing!

This is the kind of thing I was looking for. Drunks are notoriously unreliable, so I wasn't even considering them. Have any more details on these?
 
SCIWORA obviously does occur, more commonly in kids than adults, but I don't know the exact incidence or etiology.

However, in my limited, unscientific, biased and largely worthless anecdotal experience, patients with spinal cord injury present as patients with spinal cord injury.
 
SCIWORA obviously does occur, more commonly in kids than adults, but I don't know the exact incidence or etiology.

However, in my limited, unscientific, biased and largely worthless anecdotal experience, patients with spinal cord injury present as patients with spinal cord injury.
- accounts for up to 2/3 of severe cervical injuries in children < 8 years of age;

Source: http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/sciwora_syndrome_spinal_cord_injury_w_o_radiologic_abnormality
 
Just as important is the next line.

- inherent elasticity in pediatric cervical spine can allow severe spinal cord injury to occur in absence of x-ray findings;

If an injury occurs due to a movement to an extreme anatomical barrier (in other words, the furthest that the spine will allow movement), will restricting movement reduce secondary injury past, "Don't move it that far!"
 
So what evidence base exists to indicate/clear immobilisation in paeds? Is there one? How then do we apply immobilisation in this demographic?
 
The proverbial cart before the horse question, which is, unfortunately, a broken record when the gold standard doesn't have a scientific basis for or against. What evidence is there that spinal immobilization is beneficial?
 
The proverbial cart before the horse question, which is, unfortunately, a broken record when the gold standard doesn't have a scientific basis for or against. What evidence is there that spinal immobilization is beneficial?

Lets leave that aside for the moment considering that it is still an accepted standard for people who are actually suspected of having a spinal injury.

While it is expected that we immobilize suspected spinally injured paeds, how do we 'suspect'?

Is there an excepted standard or vaguely evidence based system out there? In the absence of that, I'd be interested to see what guidelines exist in some of the more progressive systems over there.
 
Linus posted in the 100% directionless thread with something that might count.
So, I got an update about one of the patients at my MVC/MCI the other night.

His truck had been hit, and the EMT initially tagged him as green since he was walking around. She later asked for some help because he kept asking where he was and what had happened. I asked him if he hurt anywhere, and he said his arms / legs tingled... I changed him to yellow so he was next out (since the reds had already gone). When the next ambulance arrived, we loaded him into the truck and off they went. Apparently within a minute of leaving, the guy went unconscious.


At the hospital they did an Xray. Turned out he had a fx neck and is now up in the ICU. So much for "walking" wounded, right?
http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=271788&postcount=7613

Personally no, but I don't work in EMS so that probably doesn't help.
 
I don't think anyone doubts that it does happen.

My version of the "back room story" is a call to an radiology clinic by the rad tech for a woman who was having her chronic neck pain investiated by her GP. The rad tech had immediately noticed what he felt was a dangerous and unstable fracture and asked the woman to sit still in the waiting room.

The question is how often this really happens so we can make some decisions about risk stratification.
 
I think part of the problem is that "spinal injury" when used in EMS is a very nebulous term. In reality there are multiple types of injuries grouped under that label, and I think that complicates the discussion because the risks, treatments etc vary widely.

Breaking it down there are stable fractures, unstable fractures without neuro deficit, unstable fractures with neuro deficit, SCIWORA, etc.

I have had a couple of patients with unstable fractures without motor deficits* (as in needing a halo) and they all presented the same; with obvious guarding. Even the drunk off her butt lady. There was none of that looking around and nodding that most people in c-collars do, they held their heads still.

I've had a number of patients with stable fractures or spiny process fractures and none of them have presented with that same guarding of the neck/back the others did.

All of the "crazy" stories I've heard there were exam findings of some sort. Pain, paresthesia, the feeling that something was really not right. I personally have never heard of a unstable fracture without neuro deficits being missed due to lack of clinical findings. As someone said, it may happen, but I bet it isn't often.

*One had paresthesia in all extremities.
 
Occult injuries?

Sure, but let's put it into perspective.

instead of relying on mechanism, let's go with index of suspicion instead.

In an adult, the bones are often fully calcified, so the solid structure absorbs the impact and is damaged accordingly. (similar to a helmet) So in an adult you would expect to see damage to the vertabrae. Now in the adult, if the force is great enough to damage the vertabrae, it may be great enough to not fully be absorbed by it.

In a kid, there is more collagen, which is softer, so you can expect more force transfer from the vertabrae to the only deeper structure, The cord. Making it more likely there is cord damage without vertebral damage. In the child the same force concept as the adult above applies.

In the last trauma conference I was at, one of the keynote speakers presented that up to 30% of spinal cord injuries (SCI) secondary to Fx are not detected by xray, and CT is rapidly becomming the scan of choice.

Damage over time.

It appears in my textbooks of pathology that inflammation is the likely culprit behind occult injury. Understanding such may also mean that the SCI may not be so much occult, than develop over time.

So it may be not as dramatic as "the guy was suddenly paralyzed" after walking around from turning his head whichever way.

Considering that the logic behind steroid administration was to reduce the inflammatory effect of SCI, which didn't have a profound enough effect as fast as was needed, which is why it has been abandoned, it does make a stronger case physiologically for inflammation as the cause over direct injury, primary or secondary.

So while I could agree that there is a such thing as occult spinal injury, if the proper suspicion based on knowledge of pathology, as well as understanding force transfer in various age groups, and finally using the best imaging techniques, the "occult" becomes quite rare.

Also consider that the anterior spinal artery supplies a majority of the spinal cord. It is relatively a very small artery and in the upper cord the vertebral arteries, which are in a very tight compartment, the inflammatory process need only cause occlusion of these arteries to create an ischemic cord injury. It does not have to be profound enough to actually impact the cord.

Based on my anatomical education and experience, I stipulate that the LSB actually can reduce the compartments further, and the inability of the body to compensate for the rise in compartmental pressure can actually expediate or create when none existed prior occlusion of these arteries which are between 3-5mm in diameter.

Many providers have actually witnessed a LSB create enough focal pressure to stop abdominal bleeding for large arteries such as the AA or the illiac arteries. Retroperitoneal pressure to stop an intraperitoneal bleed is a recognized surgical technique and practice.

If yo look at the pressure points on a LSB, the shoulders and basal skull are two of them. There is a narrowing of the spinal compartment and arterial compartments of both. In the most common anatomical variant, the T spine starts at about the level of the scapula, putting the entire C spine in the area of increased pressure.
 
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Every patient I have ever had with a spinal injury was either unconscious or had a PROFOUND sense that something was wrong with their neck, to the point of ignoring all other injuries no matter how gruesome. Anybody ever seen any different?

Yes, actually. Remember that MVC I worked on NYE?

Pt walking around, disoriented. Denied neck or back pain, despite palpation, though he did have a head lac (and the associated disorientation), equal bilateral grips, no tingling, no numbness. He sat down on the cot before I could do anything. I asked him again if he had any tingling or neck/back pain. He said all his limbs started to tingle / feel numb.

When the next ambulance came, we backboarded and sent him out. Spoke to the medic that transported him the next day. Apparently the guy went unconscious within a minute of leaving, and xray showed a DECIMATED C-5. Last I heard, pt was halo'd and up in ICU.


Felt REALLY stupid for not doing a standing takedown, but the guy sat down before I cold do anything.
 
In the last trauma conference I was at, one of the keynote speakers presented that up to 30% of spinal cord injuries (SCI) secondary to Fx are not detected by xray, and CT is rapidly becomming the scan of choice.

As an aside, this is a point that was relayed to me by my wife some time ago when I was learning some basic radiographic interpretation. She stated that fractures often missed on plain films become blatantly obvious on CT to the point that some ED docs at her facility sometimes don't even bother with plain films anymore.

The flip side is I'm wondering when the increased radiation exposure of CT is going to become a huge issue in these cases.
 
As an aside, this is a point that was relayed to me by my wife some time ago when I was learning some basic radiographic interpretation. She stated that fractures often missed on plain films become blatantly obvious on CT to the point that some ED docs at her facility sometimes don't even bother with plain films anymore.

The flip side is I'm wondering when the increased radiation exposure of CT is going to become a huge issue in these cases.

None of the major trauma centers I am familiar with on either side of the pond use plain films for spinal injuries.
 
None of the major trauma centers I am familiar with on either side of the pond use plain films for spinal injuries.

She said it's moving even more towards MRI for actual confirmed spinal injury, but that some docs are CT'ing just plain old neck pain, even absent midline tenderness/deformity. Considering the Hiroshima-type radiation levels these folks are absorbing, I wonder how long till we start seeing lawsuits about cancer.
 
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