police officer keeps man from dying relative

[Shishkabob]

I take solace in the fact that the officer will not lose his job, no matter how stupid the press acts, or how hard civilians push.

The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.

 

[ffemt8978]

Not too long ago, did you not admit to regularly driving 95 mph with a patient on board to the hospital? How would you react if an LEO stopped you for your disregard for safety? I bet you would pitch a fit even if your state law says you can not exceed the speed limit to that excess.



So you do believe the chief did this because the guy was black? That starts to make your position against the football player very suspicious for your own agenda or reasoning in this situation.

First of all, I'm not the driver when we're going that fast...I'm in back with the patient. But if LE wanted to pull us over, then we're going to pull over and take it up with the chain of command at a later time and not on scene. Secondly, when we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert, with a good 6-10 mile visibility. Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying. Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.

No, I don't believe the chief did this because the guy was black. I don't know why the chief did this, nor do you. Is it possible that the chief is just being altruistic, and saw one of his officers do something wrong and he wanted to make amends for it? Maybe. Is it possible that the chief saw an opportunity to get rid of an officer that has seven civilian complaints against him? Maybe. None of us know enough about the internal politics of that department to definitively state why the chief took the actions he did.

Or did your suspicion of my position cause you to miss where I said

there may be other motives for the chief speaking out like this.

?

 

[AJ Hidell]

I was a police officer for many years. Most of my closest friends are still police officers, including Dallas police officers. I tend to give police officers the benefit of the doubt in judgement call situations, because I know that it is not an easy job, and sooner or later, we all make the wrong call.

That said, this officer was wrong. He displayed extremely poor judgement in the handling of this situation once it became obvious what was going on. You've got the guy's car. Get his license and let him go. He'll be back. If not, well it was only traffic to begin with. Dallas police policy doesn't even allow for pursuits for traffic offenses only. This display of extremely poor judgement will seriously erode confidence in this officer, so yes, he will face discipline, as well as it probably impeding his career progress for the foreseeable future. It should.

The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.

LOL! You obviously don't know much about DPD or their union. They are not known for their ability to "rip" anyone a new one. In fact, in Texas style, they are barely a union at all in that respect. Combine that with the long established fact that Chief Kunkle does not stand by his officers, even when they are right, much less when they are wrong, and you can bet that this officer is going to be the one taking it in the shorts. Will he be fired? Nah. Not a chance. You're absolutely right about that. He violated no laws. That's what it takes to get fired. Even officers who beat their wives aren't fired. But he was wrong, and Kunkle will make sure he gets that message loud and clear.

Now, although I do feel the officer was out of line here, I have to also play devil's advocate and suggest that he really did not deny the guy a final moment with his dying mother-in-law that he is claiming. She was coding before they even arrived. There was no parting words to be had. Most likely, they arrived only to be stuck in the waiting room until the code was called. I doubt his wife even went into the room before he did. No, that doesn't make the officer's actions right. I would not suggest that. I just think we need to look at the facts realistically, and not get too caught up in emotional details that are not necessarily fact.

 

[VentMedic]

Secondly, when we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert, with a good 6-10 mile visibility.

But of course that justifies breaking the law and racing at 95 mph in a large truck. This black football player did slow down and made sure no one was in the intersection before going through the light.

Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying. Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.

95 mph in an ambulance? How could you possibly control a top heavy vehicle like that if you blow a tire?

Again, you are making excuses for breaking the law.

It doesn't matter who is driving. The fact is you are aware of how fast you are going.

If you crash, all crash and that includes the patient.

One of the first rules of EMS: Don't let the patient's emergency become your emergency.

For the family in this scene, the wife's mother was dying at the age of 45. That was an emergency to them. Why are you being so adamant about punishing these people for doing something stupid when emotions are running high? The guy admitted he was wrong. He did not make a threatening move toward the officer. The ticket was issued. If we use your same "I'm not the one driving argument", the wife should have been free to go. Not that it was the wisest for her to get out but again, if we use your excuse...
Double standards? Or, is it a race issue for this LEO and/or you?

If that 45 y/o patient was dying in the back of your truck, would you have seen fit to get her to the hospital doing 95 mph? Or, for some reason is her life not worth much? Do you believe patients should die alone without their family? Maybe just "certain" families? Like those of football players? That'll teach him a lesson and his wife also.

The officer should have known when this situation was over and ceased to escalate it.

 

[VentMedic]

She was coding before they even arrived. There was no parting words to be had. Most likely, they arrived only to be stuck in the waiting room until the code was called. I doubt his wife even went into the room before he did. No, that doesn't make the officer's actions right. I would not suggest that. I just think we need to look at the facts realistically, and not get too caught up in emotional details that are not necessarily fact.

The chances here is the woman was a DNR and a patient not to be coded or the nurse would not have been able to leave the bedside to be in the parking lot. No patient deserves to die alone especially if it is out of spite. Even if the patient is unconscious, it gives the family closure. To be so close and yet unable to be by a loved one's side has got to be traumatic for the family.

Sidenote: We do allow families to be at the bedside for codes to let them see everything is being done for their loved one.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety.

It also does not have any proven benefit to patient outcome. There is NO justification for that kind of driving. You cannot possibly believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, or that you would keep your job or license if it ever resulted in a collision.

 

[Sasha]

First of all, I'm not the driver when we're going that fast...I'm in back with the patient. But if LE wanted to pull us over, then we're going to pull over and take it up with the chain of command at a later time and not on scene. Secondly, when we're driving that fast, we're on an open two lane highway in the middle of the desert, with a good 6-10 mile visibility. Thirdly, when we're going that fast, it's not to go to see a dying relative...we're trying to prevent somebody from dying. .Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety

So it's okay for you to break the law, but no one else?

.Speed, in and of itself, does not automatically create a situation where we are disregarding safety

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't speed limits put in place for safety reasons? Ambulances are a lot harder to control then regular cars. Top heavy, turn poorly, etc.

Granted the football player himself wasn't dying, but a family member was. No, him getting there wouldn't have saved her life, but perhaps having him there would have made her passing a bit more comfortable for her and for him. This is just plain wrong. Once the person is dead you can't rewind their last few minutes so you can be with them.

I take solace in the fact that the officer will not lose his job, no matter how stupid the press acts, or how hard civilians push.

The union will rip the PD a new one if they even thought of firing him.

Why are you such a cop lover? Did you want to be one or something? It seems in your eyes, officers can do no wrong, even when they deny a man to see his dying relative alive one last time.

 

[Kookaburra]

Ha ha, I just came from another forum where people are up in arms about this. Of course, it's not an Emergency Services board, so all of the reactions are, "I WOULD DO THE SAME THING TOOOOOO!"

Holy crap, I have to drive on the same roads as these people.

 

[Sasha]

Double standards? Or, is it a race issue for this LEO and/or you?

If that 45 y/o patient was dying in the back of your truck, would you have seen fit to get her to the hospital doing 95 mph? Or, for some reason is her life not worth much? Do you believe patients should die alone without their family? Maybe just "certain" families? Like those of football players? That'll teach him a lesson and his wife also.

The officer should have known when this situation was over and ceased to escalate it

I don't think this is about race with ffemt or anyone on this board. I can't speak for the officer, but you seem to be the only one trying to make this a race issue.

 

[Kookaburra]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but does anyone else get really...ticked off when they hear people talking about running red lights and such? On the other board I'm afraid I got a bit heated with everyone saying they would have done the same thing.

 

[medic417]

It also does not have any proven benefit to patient outcome. There is NO justification for that kind of driving. You cannot possibly believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, or that you would keep your job or license if it ever resulted in a collision.

The ambulance tires have a speed and load rating. When you factor the extreme weight how much does that affect the load and speed rating?

My guess w/o doing research would be a significant impact but I could be wrong. Having done 90 mile plus to the hospital for most of my EMS career I can honestly say 5 - 15 minutes saved doesn't really make any difference 99.9% of the time. And if you get thrown at 90mph plus which I have when we used to push the pedal all the way to the floor it hurts. So slow done don't become a casualty of EMS.

 

[VentMedic]

The ambulance tires have a speed and load rating. When you factor the extreme weight how much does that affect the load and speed rating?

My guess w/o doing research would be a significant impact but I could be wrong. Having done 90 mile plus to the hospital for most of my EMS career I can honestly say 5 - 15 minutes saved doesn't really make any difference 99.9% of the time. And if you get thrown at 90mph plus which I have when we used to push the pedal all the way to the floor it hurts. So slow done don't become a casualty of EMS.

That would depend on the condition of the tires, inflation or over inflation, time of day, temperature etc.

Here is a fairly recent accident in Florida, speed 30-35 mph, where the tires were one of the causes investigated.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200512.html

While we are side tracked, here is a good article about the steering, suspension and tires of an ambulance.

http://www.emsresponder.com/print/E...-and-P--Steering--Suspension-and-Tires/1$2225


Kookaburra
This info may also answer your questions.
Safety first. It does no one any good if the EMS providers become the scene of an emergency themselves.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant. He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead. And everybody is blaming the cop.

Pathetic.

 

[VentMedic]

He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant. He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead. And everybody is blaming the cop.

Pathetic.

Do you know this for a fact since she was already diagnosed with cancer and was terminal?

Have you ever seen a hospice or comfort care suite set up at a hospital? You know, one that allows the patient to die with their family present without all that heroic stuff?

No one is blaming the cop. His chief will take care of whatever punishment or retraining he needs to handle various situations and to deal with the public more effectively. Just like an under aggressive approach can get an LEO killed, so can an over aggressive approach.

 

[Ridryder911]

My impression was the Cop was a Arsehole and just another badge toting ego civil servant with a loaded gun.

Sorry, he could have obtained the information and cited the person within a reasonable time but NO he wanted to show his authority! Again, egotistic.

Many times I have seen police excuse such as this case should have been. They are to enforce the laws but as well as we all know can have the understanding of the intent. I am sure, he has excused many others before this event but again, no he demonstrated he wanted to display his authority.

I personally hope the immediate family takes litigation against him and is able to take his pension and monetary means. Maybe, he will learn what compassion means. Meanwhile, have a nice desk job jerk !

R/r 911

 

[amberdt03]

He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant. He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead. And everybody is blaming the cop.

Pathetic.

he didn't argue with the cop for over 10 min because he realized quickly that that was getting him nowhere. i'm not saying that he didn't break the law, cause he did, but he didn't do it carelessly, like say driving 95mph in an ambulance or the cop who didn't even stop completely at the first red light. all the cop had to do was put his gun away, give him a ticket, and let him go, not lecture him. he knew he was wrong. no one is saying that the hospital staff "needs" him to come help give cpr or push meds, the family is the one who "needs" him up there. and yes he can talk to her, her being dead doesn't prevent his ability to speak. yeah obviously she can't talk back, but i'm sure they know that. it the family it was very important to get to her side, before staff called her. that is why the hospital called them and told them to get up there because she was circling the drain.

 

[amberdt03]

I personally hope the immediate family takes litigation against him and is able to take his pension and monetary means.

R/r 911

i don't that taking the cops money is going to help the family. its not going to bring their mom back, and i seriously doubt that they are hurting for money.

 

[JPINFV]

He ran a red light, drove recklessly, and loudly argued with a cop for over 10 minutes in a hospital parking lot at almost 0200 to see hospital staff violently pound on his mother-in-law's chest, blow air into a tube they crammed down her throat, inject chemicals into a tube they stabbed into her vein, and send 360 joules firing through her body, none of which involves him, meaning his presence is irrelevant. He can't talk to her because, well, she's dead. And everybody is blaming the cop.

Pathetic.

Did you watch the same video that I watched? You know, when your future wife is having a baby and is already at the hospital, you better follow every single law on the way to the hospital, including speed limits. Same if one of your relatives ever gets sick. You don't -have- to be there, after all, for any of those events.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

he didn't argue with the cop for over 10 min because he realized quickly that that was getting him nowhere. i'm not saying that he didn't break the law, cause he did, but he didn't do it carelessly, like say driving 95mph in an ambulance or the cop who didn't even stop completely at the first red light. all the cop had to do was put his gun away, give him a ticket, and let him go, not lecture him. he knew he was wrong. no one is saying that the hospital staff "needs" him to come help give cpr or push meds, the family is the one who "needs" him up there. and yes he can talk to her, her being dead doesn't prevent his ability to speak. yeah obviously she can't talk back, but i'm sure they know that. it the family it was very important to get to her side, before staff called her. that is why the hospital called them and told them to get up there because she was circling the drain.

And what's the point? Why would you WANT to see a loved one be declared dead? It doesn't alter the outcome in any way, and I seriously doubt you would want that to be one of the last memories you have of that person.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Did you watch the same video that I watched? You know, when your future wife is having a baby and is already at the hospital, you better follow every single law on the way to the hospital, including speed limits. Same if one of your relatives ever gets sick. You don't -have- to be there, after all, for any of those events.

Never getting married, thanks, and if I do, then yes I DO have to be there for the birth because the person(s) involved will (hopefully) still be alive for me to answer to. The dead can't give a crap. And I've had plenty of sick and dying relatives. But I never broke the law to go watch them die. I make the most of what time I have with them.