Why does EMT job pay so little money?

As a rule, the private and municipal entities, the EMS system as a whole, and even ourselves (how else could it be considering that this is a major complaint I've been hearing since the birth of the profession -- profession? I'll have to let Rid tackle that one!) DON'T place a whole lot of economic value on what we do.

Considering a saved limb saves the society we live in millions of dollars, that doesn't make sense. We're locked into this Good Samaritan complex where we feel it's not "appropriate" to strike or to press for equity with other vital agencies like Police and Fire. Who suffers there?

But now, getting older, my perspective changes. The people most likely to work with us would be some of the people whose lives we actually impact. I know...acknowledgment like that's pretty rare too, yet, every now and again someone does DESIRE to contribute to our financial well-being but there is no mechanism in place to support those kinds of "Thank Yous."

I believe the whole situation could be remedied by seven simple words...

"GRATUITIES NOT INCLUDED IN PRICE OF SERVICES"

Each system -- county or private company -- could have a pool that is contributed to. At the end of the month, the proceeds could be evenly distributed amongst on-duty medics (whose sole responsibility is to pre-hospital emergency medical care since everybody else in the world seems to get covered.)

Republicans should like this as it is a private incentive rather than Governmentally mandated.

In a "professional" culture that has been unable to remedy this discrepancy for 40 years, thinking out of the box may be the only thing that works.

Respectfully submitted,
firetender
 
To the best of my knowledge, Welder, Carpenter, Plumber, and Contractor are considered "Professions". They don't require a college degree. They require a certification and an apprenticeship. They also make much more than EMS workers (wouldn't want to misuse the term "profession").

However, like I said earlier, they get paid what the market will bear. People will complain about paying their plumber $110/hr to come unclog their toilet, but they will still pay it. If you work for a private service, that service can only afford to pay X amount based on the total income of the service.

I married a Canadian shortly after receiving my EMT-B in LA County. It took a while to find a school where I could receive the additional training I needed to make my EMT-A in Alberta. Once I did, and got divorced, I thought of moving to Oregon. Until I found out how much effort it would take to acheive EMT-I and the subsequent low pay it would result in.

I am originally from Southern California, and I'm not fond of the -30 to -40 C temps in winter. But, I am very fond of the paychecks I make. And, I make the money I do because that is what the market will bear. I don't make the amount my colleague in Edmonton does, but that will most likely change soon.

p.s. bled12345, Say "hi" to Cam for me if you see him. I miss that chubby monkey.
 
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RESQ_5_1 said:
To the best of my knowledge, Welder, Carpenter, Plumber, and Contractor are considered "Professions". They don't require a college degree. They require a certification and an apprenticeship. They also make much more than EMS workers (wouldn't want to misuse the term "profession").
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Many do have college degrees and if you want to compare hours of training, they by far surpass any of the EMS hours at even the Paramedic level. Yes, after they have completed all of their levels, they are professionals. They, too, have found ways for more bargaining power through education.
 
Professions like a welder, carpenter, plumber, etc. get paid so well because of their extensive training and difficulty in finding a good provider. Supply and demand have a big influence on those positions.

For the skilled trade jobs, you're paying for their labor to complete a job that you essentially could do yourself (with the training and knowledge), but rather pay someone else to do. It's the same reason that garbage men make so much. The job doesn't require an education, but would you really want to do it?
 
The trades that I mentioned, are college DIPLOMAS. not DEGREES. I have never talked to a individual that works in these fields that has told me they had an Associates or Bachelor's degree in their respective fields. As far as hours of training, I know that up here, our practicum is competency based. An EMT student is required to complete X number of skill sets proficiently in order to pass. Then, when hired, they are usually required to complete an orientation phase with their new employer. So, it's only fair to include this time as an "Apprenticeship".

There is a college here (not a University) that offers a Diploma in motorcycle repair. Specifically, Harley Davidson. None of the graduates of this program holds a DEGREE. They receive a diploma. However, their training will provide them a solid base on which to find a job (or is it profession?) that will allow them to make much more money. Actually, even more money than an Electronics Technician will make. Which, by the way, requires an Associates Degree in electronics.

It doesn't change the tone of my earlier comment, however, that certain fields make certain amounts based not on supply and demand, but what the market will bear.

I don't have the time at this moment, but the first chance I get I will look into the requirements of the fields I mentioned. And, if they require Degrees to work in those fields, I will post a public apology.
 
So, after some googling, I have found that an A.A./A.S. is available in Welding at Sierra college in California. However, although I am willing to admit I was wrong about degrees available in welding, I still must reiterate that I have NEVER met a welder with anything more than a certificate in welding.
 
RESQ_5_1 said:
I married a Canadian shortly after receiving my EMT-B in LA County. It took a while to find a school where I could receive the additional training I needed to make my EMT-A in Alberta. Once I did, and got divorced, I thought of moving to Oregon. Until I found out how much effort it would take to acheive EMT-I and the subsequent low pay it would result in.
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You must not have been looking to hard or were looking a long time ago (back in the EMT 1, 2, 3, 4 days maybe?). Oregon requires about 144 hours to become an EMT-I (plus having your EMT-B first which takes on average130 hours or so), and it is by no means a hard course, or anywhere near as extensive as it should be for what is available for EMT-I's to do. Still confuses me that a state that requires a degree for Paramedics allows crap like that to go through.

You are right about the pay though; not much difference between a basic and intermediate.
 
RESQ_5_1 said:
The trades that I mentioned, are college DIPLOMAS. not DEGREES. I have never talked to a individual that works in these fields that has told me they had an Associates or Bachelor's degree in their respective fields. As far as hours of training, I know that up here, our practicum is competency based. An EMT student is required to complete X number of skill sets proficiently in order to pass. Then, when hired, they are usually required to complete an orientation phase with their new employer. So, it's only fair to include this time as an "Apprenticeship".

There is a college here (not a University) that offers a Diploma in motorcycle repair. Specifically, Harley Davidson. None of the graduates of this program holds a DEGREE. They receive a diploma. However, their training will provide them a solid base on which to find a job (or is it profession?) that will allow them to make much more money. Actually, even more money than an Electronics Technician will make. Which, by the way, requires an Associates Degree in electronics.

It doesn't change the tone of my earlier comment, however, that certain fields make certain amounts based not on supply and demand, but what the market will bear.

I don't have the time at this moment, but the first chance I get I will look into the requirements of the fields I mentioned. And, if they require Degrees to work in those fields, I will post a public apology.
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Many do not know there are programs that offer degrees in EMS either. Many employers, private and FD, would probably prefer if people in EMS did not learn that they could get educated with at least a 2 year degree.

Just like EMS the people who work in these professions can become as educated as they want to be. Not all are going to be the sweat stereotypes that you may be familiar with. Those that also want to teach in some aspect of the industrial arts also are well educated. Those that want to run they own business may be well educated. Those that want to be competitive in higher paying positions may be well educated.

There are many technical degrees at the community college level. Then, you can advance to the Bachelors and Masters level. Some may be under the engineering section as educational requirements increase. Just like EMS, one can be a "certificate tech" or one can advance their education to achieve whatever goals.

My father was an industrial welder and safety officier for the coal mines. He had done some of this reseach for me over 30 years ago when I announced I wanted to go to college. He pointed out that I could go to college and still make use of his referral for a union card in the trades.

http://www.broward.edu/images/ProgramSheets/A033.pdf

http://cops.uwf.edu/dect/construction.htm

Here's a couple of degrees that are unique to my area:
Diving Technology (yes scuba) and Marine Engineering (welding and boat repair)
http://www.fkcc.edu/catalog/07-08%20Catalog%20Site/Sections/programs/as.html#dive

Now for the west coast:

Here's a degree in Welding (a thorough and impressive degree):
http://wserver.arc.losrios.edu/catalog/WeldingTech.pdf

Here's a Bachelor's degree in Welding:
http://www.ferris.edu/bachelor-welding-engineering-degree.htm

Here's the AWS (American Welding Society - yes even a professional association at the national level unlike EMS) that is offering scholarships for those that want to seek higher education in Welding.

http://www.aws.org/foundation/national_scholarships.html

Another example:
http://www.lcc.edu/manufacturing/welding/

Here's an example of a degree option for Automotive repair. Actually all of the certificate programs listed here have that option.
http://www.ccsf.edu/Departments/

Automotive TechnologyDegree Curriculum
City College offers credit for two years of pre-apprentice training for students seeking employment in the automotive industry. Students may apply the earned credit toward the Associate in Science degree.
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I know there are many, many more degree programs out there. Shop teachers at your local high school probably had to have some formal education behind them to compliment their trade skills to be employed in some teaching systems.

Geez, next you'll be trying to say there are no degrees in agriculture or wine making.

Edit:
Saw you last post after I posted this one.
 
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triemal04 said:
You must not have been looking to hard or were looking a long time ago (back in the EMT 1, 2, 3, 4 days maybe?). Oregon requires about 144 hours to become an EMT-I (plus having your EMT-B first which takes on average130 hours or so), and it is by no means a hard course, or anywhere near as extensive as it should be for what is available for EMT-I's to do. Still confuses me that a state that requires a degree for Paramedics allows crap like that to go through.

You are right about the pay though; not much difference between a basic and intermediate.
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Actually, in Oregon there is no reciprocity for EMT-I. I would have had to go back down to EMT-B and then jump through a crazy set of hoops to show the level I was trained to. Then, take the state exam. And, of course, then the NREMT exam. I chose to move back to Alberta. I found a good position that pays well. And, I work with some excellent people.

In reply to VentMedic, I will have to go back to rig workers. In the oil patch up here, there is possibly some degree program offered for the guys that work the rigs. But, again, I have never met a single one that had a degree in their field. There is a short course, and some safety certificates required and that's about it. And these jobs start low end at around $85,000/year. I obviously don't have the education the teachers have up here, but I make MUCH more than they do.
 
RESQ_5_1 said:
Actually, in Oregon there is no reciprocity for EMT-I. I would have had to go back down to EMT-B and then jump through a crazy set of hoops to show the level I was trained to. Then, take the state exam. And, of course, then the NREMT exam. I chose to move back to Alberta. I found a good position that pays well. And, I work with some excellent people.
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You consider a 144 hour course a lot of effort? Especially if you allready know the material? Heh. Funny. But I suppose that could be a problem B) Generally speaking, it's impossible to even get permission to test at the I level without first taking the course in Oregon. And there's no requirement to take the NREMT test, not offered at all far as I know; Oregon has it's own certification as an EMT-I that doesn't follow either the I99 or I85 standards.

Funny old system ain't it?
 
RESQ_5_1 said:
So, after some googling, I have found that an A.A./A.S. is available in Welding at Sierra college in California. However, although I am willing to admit I was wrong about degrees available in welding, I still must reiterate that I have NEVER met a welder with anything more than a certificate in welding.
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the canadian equivalent of an associates degree is a 2 yr college diploma.

The only degrees offered in Canad is Bachelors masters and doctors. No accredited canadian post secondary institution offers an associates degree.
 
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Its a damn shame when a tool booth worker on the PA turnpike makes more then 90% of EMS here...
 
It wasn't the course that was the problem. It was the subsequent paperwork regarding verification of skills, signatures required, etc. They sent me a package with a STACK of paperwork that had to be filled out requiring signatures from sources that actually were no longer available. When I moved to Alberta, all I had to do was send in the materials and curriculum I learned(along with $500). The EMT school I went to in Alberta has since closed. So, difficult to get signatures when I have no contact info for the instructor. The form was very confusing and would have required numerous mailings at International rates. Since you are in Oregon, and the packet is free, order the reciprocity package. It is set up for transition from another state, not international licensing/certification. Plus, I would have had to track down my old EMT-B number. That was 6 years previous and California was being somewhat uncooperative. Again, much easier to move back to Alberta.
 
that "welding" degree wasnt what you insinuated it to be, which was a degree fo welders. I looked into it, and its a bachelors degree in engineering - welding. No welding tradesmen is ever going to have a bachelors degree in engineering which requires "advanced calculus" and still going to be holding a welding rod in their hands.
 
bled12345 said:
that "welding" degree wasnt what you insinuated it to be, which was a degree fo welders. I looked into it, and its a bachelors degree in engineering - welding. No welding tradesmen is ever going to have a bachelors degree in engineering which requires "advanced calculus" and still going to be holding a welding rod in their hands.
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Wanna place some bets on that? I guess you haven't met many professional welders or only stereotype them. Welders that work high tech know their stuff and still weld.

Get over the "tech" mentality. That is what has held EMS back for the last 40 years. Why would one want to get all that book learnin' when they already can start an IV, intubate and do all that life savin' stuff?

People have the opportunity to advance their education regardless of the job. Some may actually want it to become a "career".
 
VentMedic said:
Wanna place some bets on that? I guess you haven't met many professional welders or only stereotype them. Welders that work high tech know their stuff and still weld.

Get over the "tech" mentality. That is what has held EMS back for the last 40 years. Why would one want to get all that book learnin' when they already can start an IV, intubate and do all that life savin' stuff?

People have the opportunity to advance their education regardless of the job. Some may actually want it to become a "career".
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lol ummm wow... ok I was 3rd year apprentice in welding, and worked on alberta pipelines for 3 years with B pressure welders, pipeline welders are held to the highest standards and have the highest skill level out there, and they clear about 9 grand a week. Basically the best of the best, and although they are tremendously talented at what they do, they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people. an ****ENGINEERING DEGREE IN WELDING**** (engineering) "ENGINEERING" can I say engineering degree? ok one more time... engineering

an electrical engineer isn't an electrician.... a mechanical engineer isn't a mechanic... and a welding engineer is definately not a blue collar welder. /end story
 
bled12345 said:
lol ummm wow... ok I was 3rd year apprentice in welding, and worked on alberta pipelines for 3 years with B pressure welders, pipeline welders are held to the highest standards and have the highest skill level out there, and they clear about 9 grand a week. Basically the best of the best, and although they are tremendously talented at what they do, they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people. an ****ENGINEERING DEGREE IN WELDING**** (engineering) "ENGINEERING" can I say engineering degree? ok one more time... engineering

an electrical engineer isn't an electrician.... a mechanical engineer isn't a mechanic... and a welding engineer is definately not a blue collar welder. /end story
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You are saying there are no educated welders? They are just a bunch of uneducated workers and

they are all beer guzzling womanizing chain smoking blue collar people.
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Wow, that is short sighted and stereotyping not to mention insulting. Not all welders work on a pipeline. You are describing only one job in one area. It seems you do not know enough about the profession to make any intelligent comments. Don't bash another profession in attempts to make yourself look better or try to prove a point with so llittle information to back it up.
 
VentMedic said:
You are saying there are no educated welders? They are just a bunch of uneducated workers and
Wow, that is short sighted and stereotyping not to mention insulting. Not all welders work on a pipeline. You are describing only one job in one area. It seems you do not know enough about the profession to make any intelligent comments. Don't bash another profession in attempts to make yourself look better or try to prove a point with so llittle information to back it up.
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ok fine you win whatever, you obviously know more on the subject than somebody who was 1 year away from getting there welding...
 
bled12345 said:
ok fine you win whatever, you obviously know more on the subject than somebody who was 1 year away from getting there welding...
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Yes, I do know this from being in the college system a long time and coming from a familly of welders in various industries for several decades. There are many different areas a welder is needed and should bring different levels of expertise/education for the job. Being a beer guzzler on a pipeline is not one of the qualifications and probably would not get you a job in a high tech industry.

I used to do a little welding myself to pick up some extra cash. I learned from both my father and college welding classes.
 
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