youngin' needs more advice

[rugrat]

Hello,
So I have posted around a few times

So originally I got my EMT and only was able to do clinicals and volunteer work with hospitals or missions clinics. There was a lack of EMT job openings for me in MN so I recently moved to TN to pursue becoming a Physicians Assistant. I mostly am pursuing it as it will be more recognized for doing mission work and frankly it is more stable for having a family someday (I am an action junkie at the moment, but I don't know if I always will be.

So right now I am in a pre-PA program at Lee University. Taking hard non-medical (for the most part) science classes for the first time. I do love the learning (as I love to learn), but I am thinking I would like more time to absorb the classes (learn everything more in depth) and of course get some great grades (which never hurts). I am considering going down to part time student status and focusing on working a medical job some. I love to learn, but learning medicine is my real passion!

I just got a job scribing in a local ER (which I am thankful for) and I have met some EMS who I can do ride alongs with. However I think I might also like to work a rig for a few years before I get around to PA school as I think between the hand-ons of the rig and knowledge absorbed from scribing I would be very prepared. However around here EMS agencies are interested in AEMT and for individuals to be over 21. So my thought was to take an AEMT course in the next year (before I turn 21). I feel like if I would be going to get my AEMT I might as well be going to get my paramedic. However I also know getting my paramedic after I get my PA would probably fairly easy to do.

So any of guys who took school slower? Interested in your thoughts. I have noticed PA schools seem to like applicants with a lot of experience and I sure would love to work in EMS for a few years. I don't view at a stepping stone though as I want to be working with pre-hospital/emergency care. I am interested in seeing EMS perhaps become more developed or perhaps even implementing EMS in other countries.

Would you recommend being a full time student and scribing some (20 hours per week, overnights) this is a very full schedule as I spend all of my free time studying usually. Switching to part time and just scribing or also pursuing my AEMT and working...

Some other factors are my school will give me credit for my current job, are possibly willing to give me health science credits (non core) for going through AEMT, and the possibility of me getting married in the next year or two in which case I may want a better paying job than scribing.

I know you guys always have pretty solid advice. Thanks!
Rugrat

 

[MedicDelta]

If you want to work in EMS, then work in EMS. Go take an AEMT class and maybe later on take a paramedic course. These courses will do nothing but help you if you plan on becoming a PA later in life. Maybe you'll find that you enjoy EMS so much you decide you don't want to become a PA. At the end of the day nobody can make these decisions but you, take some time to think where you want to go in life and where you see yourself in 5 years. Best of luck man.

 

[Medic Tim]

If pa is your goal stay in school full time. An Emt opportunity may come your way over the 5-6 years it will take you to get PA. A part time job, volunteering , ride alongs are all options while being a ft student. By stopping or slowing down it is easy to get side tracked and not go back.
If you want to be an EMT for the rush you will be disappointed. It wears off fast and in most places "those" calls are few and far between.

Also keep in mind ( once you get to this part) that most pa programs discourage outside work or distractions as they can be intense.

 

[Ewok Jerky]

I agree with @Medic Tim

1- Science course will help you for the rest of your life regardless of what career you take.

2- stop now and it gets exponentially harder to go back to school. I know from experience. When you try to back it costs sleep, money, time, plus lost wages from taking time off/missing OT/going PT.

3- EMS can be a great intro to medicine but for most a career in paramedicine is not possible.

4- if you are already thinking of PA school, working IFT for $9/hr will be miserable. Working as a scribe should get you enough hours and experience to be prepared for PA school.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Paramedic school would be easy after PA school but you'd still have to spend the time, which is a lot, and the money, which is usually a lot.

I'm going to agree with what everyone else said about staying in school full time. With that said some schools weigh healthcare experience more than education while others are the opposite. I'd advise looking at the admission requirements for the schools you wish to attend and find out which they prefer. I don't know if scribe experience would count as "healthcare experience" since you aren't actually caring for patients.

Best of luck!

Any particular reason you picked PA over MD/DO? If I could go back and do it over again I'd have finished my degree, gone to medic school and started applying to Med School while I worked as a Paramedic. Now, even only being a couple weeks shy of 25 I'm not super keen on being in school and a residency/fellowship until I'm 40.

 

[rugrat]

@MedicDelta I do have interest in EMS, however for working in the 3rd world I see a lot of value in being a PA. A little more rounded as most pts are not trauma/cardiac/abd pain etc.... Thanks though

@MedicTim Good points I don't want to stop going towards PA.. if I did do the AEMT it would be doing that for one semester and then immediately (summer courses) back into pre-PA. And I suppose the main reason I want to do EMS or medicine period is to help people which is obviously something I can do in a clinical setting or something involving a little more trauma... I have just noticed I do not mind blood, like action, and do enjoy being busy. I know once I get to PA school that will be my complete focus for two years (one is lucky to eat and sleep I hear... haha).

@beano I get it with the science... I am enjoying the learning, it is simply a process haha. I haven taken one hard science class in my life. I was forced to take an honors science class as an acne ridden freshman in highschool. It was small and I had no idea what was going on usually... of course to say many years later I know I can learn the material and do well, but as I have about zero basis/background for what I am learning. To say the least it is a significant learning curve! I am really enjoying the classes and finding lots of applications for what I am learning. I could work an IFT company around the area now, however the AEMT would be my ticket out of that... atleast I would hope

@Handsome Rob
I have been looking at the differences in schools. I want to try to get into Duke, but as they are number 1 (for PA) they are very competitive. From going over the admissions requirements I have noticed their incoming GPA's to be lower than expected (3.2-3.7ish), but their requirement for experience is 1,000 hours which I have heard something like 2% of their applicants have. I should be able to get well above that. They do accept scribing as experience hours. I know there are other colleges which do not consider it to be or only weigh it half as good.

That is really the bummer for me with being a scribe is patient contact... I really love interacting and talking with people! This half the reason I want to go to AEMT is so that I can have some job experience where I get to atleast interact! Perhaps with volunteering though.... I feel like personally I would enjoy doing some EMS work and would find it valuable for the future regardless of what admissions at a school thought. The other thing that has been on my mind is getting into grad school. With my job they flew me out to a training school in Texas (which you had to pass to get the job). I was the youngest and least experienced person there. Everyone else was either a pre-med senior or had already graduated. They were all facing the problem of not being able to get into grad school due to lack of experience. That made me reconsider getting through pre PA in 2 or 3 years. I could do it in about two more if I tried hard right now with the credits I have. However I was thinking if I took more time I could get more experience and better grades...

As to picking PA over MD. Well for one I have already been in college to long for my liking... ;-) I might be young, but I have been a little to well traveled as far as school... I also am planning on getting married sometime soon and want to have a family a few years after school. Going to school for an MD means a lot of years and PA get more flexible hours and have to work less. PA's already make more than I need in wages... I mean compared to musician "wages" anything looks good haha. I also really do not care about being the "big cheese" around either. I like working with people...

Who knows I might change my mind down the road and if I do I can do a PA to MD bridge program. That would probably be a lot easier after working as a PA for several years. I have a friend who is the medical director of a hospital and he is always in favor of people going to medical school when they are older (30+) as he says they really hit the books and do well.

I am trying to hit the books and do well... I am just wondering if I sleep close enough to my chem book if I can start to learn through osmosis...

So I am not totally sure yet, but you guys have definitely tilted the scales towards not jumping for more EMS school at the moment.
Hopefully I can do some ride alongs in the next few weeks as my TN EMT cert finally arrived! woot woot!

Thanks guys
Rugrat

 

[OnceAnEMT]

I tried to stay out of this one, but I couldn't hold it in!

I am in a similar position as yours (and very similar to Robb, now that I learned that about him). I am currently a Sophomore majoring in Athletic Training (B.S.), and taking the medical school pre-requisites at the same time. In order to do it in 4 years, while having 24 credits from CLEP and AP scores, it is still a solid 16-18 credit hours per semester (no summer classes, I work very FT in an ED over the summer, and only PRN during the year (24 hrs a month)). So take that, then add 15-20 hours a week solely for AT clinicals. It gets busy, so I feel you. I had some comments on your post.

First, and correct me if I missed it, I see that you mentioned taking pre-PA courses, but did not see your major or what your degree will be. If you are truly taking only the classes to meet PA school pre-reqs, I strongly suggest you rethink this ideology and get a degree. If this is the case, let me know and I will elaborate. If not, what's your degree? Out of curiosity. That said, stay in school FT, even if there are financial obstacles. Student loans are a marvelous wonder. Work when you can, but don't stress yourself.

Second, you mentioned GPA reqs for PA school being lower than expected. And you're right, I saw the same thing. Personally, I am shooting for medical school, MD or DO. My backup plan is PA school. When I looked at the PA school reqs, I noticed a few things. First, the course requirements were VERY similar, to the point where it doesn't effect my degree plan. Second, as you mentioned, their is often a 200 or 500 or 1,000+ hours of clinical experience requested. No big deal for me, I'm already more than solid there. Lastly, the "average" stats of matriculating students was far less than medical school. 3.0-3.2 GPAs, lower GREs, that kind of thing. Clearly their focus is on clinical experience, which is great. All of that said, depending on your degree plan and how your grades are looking and how you expect them to look, I really suggest that you don't let MD/DO school intimidate you. Take a look at the course requirements and note the similarities. I can assure you that you have a shot, if you want it. Now, if you don't want it, then don't go after it, easy enough. I just want to make sure that the reason you aren't going after it isn't that you don't think you can make it in.

Third, and your main point, was that you are curious about further education in EMS. I'll tell you my plan, the why, and what I suggest for you. I decided to get my EMT because my favorite aspect of AT was the acute care. I wanted to work and use those skills as well, but that wasn't a huge goal, until after the class. Taking the class really set my mind on emergency medicine as a career. At this point my plan is to finish AT and all of the med school pre-reqs in my 4 years, and take a gap year for the application process. During that gap year I plan on using that Summer to Summer in order to get my AEMT and Paramedic certifications and state licenses. Here's the tricky part. The reason I am furthering my EMS education is because (1) I love emergency medicine, (2) I want to be involved in EMS/emergency medicine as a physician, be it primarily or as a secondary involvement, (3) Having my Paramedic is a big player for my backup plan(s). One of the things that gets pre-professional school students is that they see EMS training as a potential advantage, so they go and get their EMT and never use it (most never even get a state license). Medical schools, and PA schools even more due to their experience requirements, don't pay much mind to your EMS training if you never use it. What I am getting at is if you do not plan to work as an EMT now, during your further training, and during any time up to your professional school applications, then do not further your EMS education. Having your Paramedic is cool, not noticeable. Noticeable is having 1,000 hours as a Paramedic, even if its IFT.

About being a scribe, well, that depends on what you do, as it does vary. If you are having legitimate patient contact, then sure, keep what you have. But if all you do is work with the physicians and never the actual patient, that is good in its own part, but you are lacking the major expectation, which is patient contact. Personally, I am an ER Tech at a large hospital in Austin, and I plan to keep that job until I am in professional school. If you are not getting that patient contact, I really suggest that you start looking for a position that allows you to use your EMT skills.

Final comment. Stay away from the SDN forum. If you don't know what that is yet, I'm sure you will, but just take things there as a grain of salt.

Oh, truly final comment now that I have re-read everything. I know you're not worried about it now, but if you ever get to a point where you are a PA and want to be an MD or DO, I strongly suggest you do some research into the way "bridge programs" work in that situation, and what the significant setbacks are.

Edit: Last thing! Shadowing. For me, I think of shadowing and sigh in disgust, because I already work hand in hand with patients as an EMT and physicians when I fill in as a unit clerk. The thought of standing there and observing a physician is truly a boring one. But, we still have to do it. Even for PA schools, they still ask for some (I want to say 40 is the magic number) shadowing hours with PAs. I'm not sure about with PA schools, but medical schools do truly discern between shadowing a physician and working with a physician. Which is understandable, but I personally believe is more oriented to office-bound physicians, unlike ERPs.

 

[rugrat]

First, and correct me if I missed it, I see that you mentioned taking pre-PA courses, but did not see your major or what your degree will be. If you are truly taking only the classes to meet PA school pre-reqs, I strongly suggest you rethink this ideology and get a degree. If this is the case, let me know and I will elaborate. If not, what's your degree? Out of curiosity. That said, stay in school FT, even if there are financial obstacles. Student loans are a marvelous wonder. Work when you can, but don't stress yourself.

The university I am attending actually has a pre-PA. The degree is technically called "health sciences pre-PA" It pretty close to pre-med, just a few small changes to be catered towards PA school.

All of that said, depending on your degree plan and how your grades are looking and how you expect them to look, I really suggest that you don't let MD/DO school intimidate you. Take a look at the course requirements and note the similarities. I can assure you that you have a shot, if you want it. Now, if you don't want it, then don't go after it, easy enough. I just want to make sure that the reason you aren't going after it isn't that you don't think you can make it in.

Slightly confused as to what you meant by this? As in you think I should still consider being a full fledged doc?

The reason I am furthering my EMS education is because (1) I love emergency medicine, (2) I want to be involved in EMS/emergency medicine as a physician, be it primarily or as a secondary involvement, (3) Having my Paramedic is a big player for my backup plan(s). One of the things that gets pre-professional school students is that they see EMS training as a potential advantage, so they go and get their EMT and never use it (most never even get a state license). Medical schools, and PA schools even more due to their experience requirements, don't pay much mind to your EMS training if you never use it. What I am getting at is if you do not plan to work as an EMT now, during your further training, and during any time up to your professional school applications, then do not further your EMS education. Having your Paramedic is cool, not noticeable. Noticeable is having 1,000 hours as a Paramedic, even if its IFT.

This is kind of where I am at. I love EMS and I would also like to be involved somehow after finishing grad school. I have an EMT cert and I just payed $400 to transfer it to the state I just moved too so I could use it here! I could do IFT and I know there is a company a few blocks from my school that hires fairly often, but it not a great place to work (not to mention I just got a job!). The county EMS is also very close, albeit much harder to get into.. They do 911 and I believe like AEMT's for applicants.

About being a scribe, well, that depends on what you do, as it does vary. If you are having legitimate patient contact, then sure, keep what you have. But if all you do is work with the physicians and never the actual patient, that is good in its own part, but you are lacking the major expectation, which is patient contact. Personally, I am an ER Tech at a large hospital in Austin, and I plan to keep that job until I am in professional school. If you are not getting that patient contact, I really suggest that you start looking for a position that allows you to use your EMT skills.

I am not allowed to talk to the patient (I can smile and nod though... ) However I do get to be very good at patient story, learning med terms, and seeing what a doc does. So not pt contact. but very educational. This is why I also have been thinking about furthering my EMS so I can get a job with the county service around here and have a years worth of experience by the time I get grad school.

Edit: Last thing! Shadowing. For me, I think of shadowing and sigh in disgust, because I already work hand in hand with patients as an EMT and physicians when I fill in as a unit clerk. The thought of standing there and observing a physician is truly a boring one. But, we still have to do it. Even for PA schools, they still ask for some (I want to say 40 is the magic number) shadowing hours with PAs. I'm not sure about with PA schools, but medical schools do truly discern between shadowing a physician and working with a physician. Which is understandable, but I personally believe is more oriented to office-bound physicians, unlike ERPs.

I will have shadow hours through school I believe. Haha although I think it would probably be at the same hospital I work... and I was also able to work out getting school credit (for shadowing) with work as I do follow around a doc for their entire shift and have the ability to make observations.

 

[OnceAnEMT]

It sounds like your degree is Health Sciences, and includes PA pre-reqs. There really is not "pre-professional school" degree. PT, med school, PA, and others all have their requirements, yes, but those aren't enough to fill a 120 credit Bachelor's degree. My main reason for mentioning this is that it is a fair assertion that you need a backup plan that involves a degree in something, so as you mentioned, Health Sciences, versus "pre-PA".

I just wanted to be sure you were thinking of things in a bigger picture, not necessarily trying to convince you to go to medical school.

Congratulations on the job! Yeah, that is what I feared out of your scribing position. I ask because some physicians are fairly lax and allow interview participation, and others, as you mention, are strictly their for "scribing". It is certainly a great opportunity to learn, but will only get you so far on an application. If you have the option, I'd suggest less scribing, more EMS, but keep with both.

 

[rugrat]

My degree is very close to to a pre-med degree it simply has the classes catered more towards what PA schools are looking for. Less general sciences and more health focused classes. It is a full 120 hour degree. I could still apply for med school with it if I wanted to, but I am just not planning on going to medical school (atleast at this point).

The problem with the scribing is I work for a third party. Which means I get payed a LOT less than the hospital is paying for me per hour and it also means I essentially have two bosses. So even if a doc is lax (and the hospital I work at is pretty lax! ) about things I am still not "technically" allowed to say a thing. This is why I want to do EMS which means getting my AEMT for around here.

I have prof who thinks it is a great idea though so maybe...

 

[Brandon O]

Two things:

1. There are very few "bridge programs" around and it's not clear if this will increase, or increase in worthwhileness. Don't bank on that as a feasible option in the future.

2. People get annoyed if you add an 's. It's "physician assistant." About as dumb to me as the "ambulance driver" thing, but one of those gotchas in the app process.