You would never let this happen right?

[DT4EMS]

Read the whole story and look at the pic.

http://www.auburnjournal.com/articles/2006/03/29/news/top_stories/01officers29.txt

Look at the EMS provider. Make sure to look at the expressions on the faces of the people involved.

This statement was important
"The event began to unfold just before 11 a.m. Monday when Rodriguez, driving a maroon Chevrolet sedan westbound on Interstate 80, crashed into the right guardrail near Elm Avenue, bounced off and slid into the center divide, officials said.

Firefighters were in the process of accessing the driver's injuries and treating him when he began to fight and reach for Olveda's gun. Fortunately, for all involved, no one was injured."


Sooooooo in other words............ there was no initial indication there was a problem with scene safety. IT WAS A CRASH!

Sorry, but I will continue the fight to say EMS has to receive SOME SORT of training.

Nay Sayers will continue to say there is no need.

 

[fm_emt]

Yeah, WTF is he doing there? I thought the County protocol stated "if someone goes for a gun, run like hell!"

Usually the Sacramento County Sheriffs dept shoots first and picks up the pieces later, tho. I'm surprised this guy didn't wind up with a few dozen .40 holes in him.

 

[DT4EMS]

Yeah, WTF is he doing there? I thought the County protocol stated "if someone goes for a gun, run like hell!"

Usually the Sacramento County Sheriffs dept shoots first and picks up the pieces later, tho. I'm surprised this guy didn't wind up with a few dozen .40 holes in him.

There are actually 5 other pics with this that are in the LEO education arena right now.

My whole point of training is $4it happens............

But their ambulance or FD supervisor would say something like "Was the scene safe?"

The point was....it happened....

Stuff like this happens all the time and people still act like a child hiding under the covers from a monster. They believe if they can't see the monster it must not exist.

There is absolutely no reason why agencies shouldn't provide training for their people.

And..... if people didn't email me stuff or I go looking for it.....it doesn't make the news. When it gets brought up I have to be careful not to offend anyone by sounding like "chicken little" with the sky is falling routine.

Preparation is not paranoia. I don't want people worried about getting attacked everyday, but I DO want them aware it is possible.

 

[fm_emt]

There are actually 5 other pics with this that are in the LEO education arena right now.

Preparation is not paranoia. I don't want people worried about getting attacked everyday, but I DO want them aware it is possible.

Hey, can I see the pics? hehe

And you're right. Being prepared isn't being paranoid. It's still the Boy Scouts motto - "Be Prepared."

I think I'm close to being prepared for total civil unrest around here. Stocked food & water, ammo, firearms, batteries, etc. The only thing I'm missing is that defensive training course that I hear about once in a while... ;-)

 

[DT4EMS]

Hey, can I see the pics? hehe

And you're right. Being prepared isn't being paranoid. It's still the Boy Scouts motto - "Be Prepared."

I think I'm close to being prepared for total civil unrest around here. Stocked food & water, ammo, firearms, batteries, etc. The only thing I'm missing is that defensive training course that I hear about once in a while... ;-)

I have them at work. Send me a PM with an email and I will send them to you.

 

[Jon]

wow...

I think they were too busy trying to keep the gun in the holster to worry about shooting the guy...

Jon

 

[DT4EMS]

wow...

I think they were too busy trying to keep the gun in the holster to worry about shooting the guy...

Jon

You are absolutely correct. I don't want to second guess a successful outcome.... but I would like to use it for training.

One person to secure the holsters weapon.....two guys could have went for the attacker and removed him from the CHP officer.

They did not have to shoot him. There are several things they could have done that would be justified in this particular situation.

When teaching disarms of clubs and edged weapons I teach a little different. I don't always concentrate on removing the weapon from the hand, but rather the hand from the weapon..........
of course that is a little more advance, but the priciple would be the same here.

The problem was not could the officer keep the weapon in the holster.........but to get the guy back or OFF.

Again the point here is training....... as long as people don't turn a blind eye to the dynamics of humans. People don't always act like they are supposed to or expected to. Here were fire /EMS guys in the middle of somethin I am sure they thought could never happen.

Heck read around on forums......people scream "Where was scene safety" or I woulda hit him with an O2 Bottle....... well what happened here was people were caught by surprise.......like most attacks.

Again I am thankful the outcome was successful..............but do you think for a minute that if the suspect WOULD have gotten the gun he would NOT have shot the EMT/Medic/Fire guy?

 

[Ridryder911]

Incidents like this happen way too many and very fast as well. We just don't usually hear or read about it...

DT4EMS is right, you have to be prepared, by the way of reaction. The only way to do so, is through proper training, rehearsal of scenarios, practice, and experience.

I am glad the outcome of this event was a success....(no one dead or injured)

Like the old sayings "the scene safe ?, run away" are nice , but it is like saying "I would wear BSI" it does not always protect you from all exposures, things can happen.... and happen quickly. Like I describe it has to be a reaction, not a thought out plan.. again, this only comes with proper education and training.

I hope EMS will address more education of scene awareness and scene safety and the personal protection of EMT's ... this includes a lot more than just asking if it is safe or not.

R/r 911

 

[DT4EMS]

In the DT4EMS course we actually teach a technique to remove a person from your partner to help you both escape. It would have worked for a sitation such as this.

Every EMS provider I have trained in DT4EMS that saw the photos all said they would have used the technique (without asking them).

 

[Jon]

Kinda odd - it looks like that is a FF/EMT there in the blue... but he didn't get newspaper credit

I'd have jumped on the guy and helped take him down too, same as the EMS provided seems to have... If that gun came out of the holster... they could have all been shot.

Anyone ever seen "COPS"? The cameramen occasionaly end up "assisting" with their feet on suspects backs.


On a related note - I had an odd experience last weekend... I got just a little too close (3 feet) to a Philadelphia PD Sgt. at an event - I had to throw something in the trashcan he was next to... I'm in the full Event EMS uniform, and I got a little too close for his comfort... he changed posture... didn't say anything... but his right arm went from being behind his back to over his pistol so I couldn't grab it... I made no hostile act, did say "hi" and threw out the trash... went back to my chair and sat down. I just can't wait until some of my co-workers at the security site start carring guns

 

[DT4EMS]

Jon....you nailed it!!

My point exactly! No matter what has happened, EMS gets very little press when it comes to dangerous situations.

It is because of this little recognition people do not believe it happens. So when you get someone who works in a fancy area or an area with tons of help on every scene..... they think self-defense training for EMS is not needed.

 

[Stevo]

In the DT4EMS course we actually teach a technique to remove a person from your partner to help you both escape. It would have worked for a sitation such as this.

and you've a techique for 18 yr old 90 pound female ems'ers to take down 250lb raging rednecks?

are you willing to elaborate here?

~S~

 

[MedicPrincess]

and you've a techique for 18 yr old 90 pound female ems'ers to take down 250lb raging rednecks?

are you willing to elaborate here?

~S~

He doesn't say to "take them down," but to remove them from your partner so you can escape.

You know, get the hell outta there!

I hafta say though, I am chicken little. When our "patients" get violent, I am probably the first one to hightail it out of the way so our LEO's can handle it. And our deputies have said they'd rather my partner and I get out of the way and protect ourselves, that way we can be ready to treat who ever needs it when their part is done.

 

[DT4EMS]

First of all, escape is priority.

Now, if you had done your research on what we claim to teach you would see that we talk about human conflict being dynamic. Nothing is 100%.

But I have had 90lb females take down much larger (around 205) opponents using the priciples we teach. Does it count if it is a 200lb male taking down a 440lb male? Takedowns are opportunistic. Off-balance and escape are a priority.

Think about this. Ever had a 2 year old hang on your arm? Can a two year old kick your butt? Certainly not. But the idea is, the kid just wanted to "swing" on your arm, not use some sort of "techniqe". It is the body weight of the child not some magical ninja move that causes a response.

So YES Stevo, a 90 lb female that would have grabbed the head of an aggressor to FREE her partner could make it work. ( Remember the aggressor was facing away from the medic)

But unitl you see and feel what we do, you will think we are like every other Karate class or a poluice officer that came in to teach "some moves" to the EMS folks to help them out.

note: I am not saying EMS should help police officers "arrest" anyone. What I am saying is however it happened, the EMS provider WAS involved ........ now what?

 

[DT4EMS]

Here is an example of how "Body Weight" and not strength is used. The exact same priciples apply if a person is able to control the head.

http://www.dt4ems.net/files/elbow_control_takedown.pdf

 

[Stevo]

your example are of people the same size DT

the fact is, i know of many young police officers around here that (to me) look like they stole their daddy's uniform

i would say that, if municipalities are going to continue hiring doogey howser contingents that the training you offer may quickly be in vouge

further, if they simply continue to throw them to the lions (so to speak) without prior training i'd say the morbitiy rate alone will sell you

good luck

~S~

 

[DT4EMS]

your example are of people the same size DT

the fact is, i know of many young police officers around here that (to me) look like they stole their daddy's uniform

i would say that, if municipalities are going to continue hiring doogey howser contingents that the training you offer may quickly be in vouge

further, if they simply continue to throw them to the lions (so to speak) without prior training i'd say the morbitiy rate alone will sell you

good luck

~S~

This has nothing to do with officers. It has nothing to do with subject arrest/control, it is about escape. Even doogie howser police officers will have BACK UP coming, Taser, Mace, Baton etc to even the score. Officers do not have a "duty to retreat" EMS does.

Have you read the testimonial of a 110lb female talking about how she was able to take down people much larger than herself?

Have you been to one of my courses where you tried to choke a person as hard as you could and they got away? Plus they did it without breaking anything on you?

Again you can only speak of what you know. I don't expect you to know everyting we teach or how the materail is presented by reading it in a forum.
So I won't hold it against you.

Have you personally talked to any of the hundreds of EMS providers that have attended one of courses to ask them what they thought?

Rememeber the goal......... prevent an assault period. Not be some ninja that walks blindly into a dangersou scene. We say dont' be there in the first place, but what happens when the safe scene wasnt' so safe?

Again, I am not teaching LEO DT to EMS.

 

[DT4EMS]

During FIST suit training the "attacker" is trying to take the person down. He is trying to grab, slap, pull hair etc. Here is a pic of a female that is obviously 100lbs less than the "attacker".

http://www.dt4ems.net/Photo Gallery Files/Class 050405/P5056481.JPG

Looks to me like she is doing a pretty good job of getting him away from her.

 

[DT4EMS]

Here is a pic of a takedown used to "remove" a person from your partner. The one doing the takedown is 250lbs. The person he is taking down is 6'8" and weighs 440lbs.

The idea is even in "failure" to take the person down, you created space for you and your partner to escape. The set up for the simulation is the "attacker" petends he/she is holding a person in front of them. The defender comes from behind and frees them......... Without having to hit them in the back of the head with an O2 Bottle.

I can read the headlines now.... Paramedic beats patient with an Oxygen Bottle....

http://www.dt4ems.net/Photo Gallery Files/Class 072005/P7216840.jpg