Interested in obtaining my EMT-P. Currently an ER/ICU RN with 7 years experience, EMT-B with 12 years experience. Anyone out there know of a good bridge course that doesn't require me to do 15 months of paramedic school (yawn). I know about the Creighton University 2 week course but I feel that is a bit too quick. Some people have told me to challenge it but I think that is ill-advised. Thanks for any input.
RN to Paramedic...
- Thread starter MtRNER
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It would help if we knew which state you're in or where you're willing to travel to...
CriticalCareIFT
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I see this thread great potential in the works.
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VFlutter
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Although 2 weeks is very quick I have heard good things about the Creighton University's program. Check with local community colleges and see if they will work with you. Some will credit your nursing classes and only make you take a few of the paramedic classes and then clinicals. Some states have various pathways to bridge or challenge the paramedic exam. Good luck.
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I've worked with several flight RN's who went through this program and had nothing but good things to say about it.
Whether or not you can "challenge" the program in your state depends on state regs and the policies of the college offering the program. in SC, an RN used to be able to simply sit for the state exam and if you passed, you were a paramedic....I don't think it's like that anymore. However, all the states I've worked in gave course directors great leeway and allowed them to run customized (abbreviated) paramedic courses for RN's and RRT's.
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ExpatMedic0
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I would have loved to contribute to "the great potential" I think your speaking of, but I feel like a broken record after 8 years on this forum...
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Since you are being cryptic I can only assume what you are implying, but you are 100% wrong if you are suggesting that it is necessary for an experienced ED/ICU nurse to complete an entire paramedic program. That is an absolutely unnecessary waste of time and money.
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CriticalCareIFT
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I am not suggesting that. Although coming to EMT forum and saying things like paramedic school yawn and wanting serious advice is equivalent of me going to nursing forum and saying I am Critical Care Paramedic with X years experience, anyone out there know of a good bridge course that doesn't require me to do X months of nursing school (yawn).
wanderingmedic
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I too have heard great things about this program. If I remember correctly, some of the flight RN's at the University of Michigan's Survival Flight Air Ambulance system went through this program. I know there are some RN to medic bridges that occur occasionally in Michigan, but I do not have details on them.
You might also want to look into PERCOM and ask how they would place you. Their didactic portion is online, and they can usually count some of your work experience as an RN towards your required hospital clinical rotations. I know they have had several MD's, RN's, and RT's go through their program.
CriticalCareIFT
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I think some truth need to be stated, as some nurses here have a misconception or a vague idea of what Paramedics do but comment on things with an authority and the idea that their education/training vastly supersedes formal Paramedic schooling.
1-Nurses and Paramedics perform different jobs period. Educational model, skill sets and priorities are different. One is not more superior than the other, they are different. Nurses perform their nursing assessments and help the clients with plethora of vital nursing interventions carrying out physician orders, establishing nanda diagnosis which is distinct from a physician diagnosis etc. Paramedics work on established protocols by their medical director with addition of online medical control. First line interventions are initiated in the field based on patient presentation, physical exam and a medical diagnosis. With emphasis placed on early detection and notification for hospital resources for Stroke, ACS, Sepsis etc. so the suite will get prepared and the right people are where they need to be. In addition of ambulance driving and operations, radio communications, lifting and moving patients etc. Everyone plays their part, no need to sit on the high horse and pretend one is better than the other.
2-During my formal medic school for the final 1 year of rotations I worked side by side various attending physicians and residents, predominantly EM attendings. Following and watching assessments, write ups, assisting with treatments and performing certain EM procedures. I watched Nursing students working closely with experienced Nurses and doing assessments, performing nursing interventions and charting, rarely have I seen RN students following physicians during my clinicals. It would stand to reason upon graduation each will have different experiences and different priorities.
3- If you at least can see the difference in the respected jobs and agree that each professional was trained for their specific job that they will perform. It would be folly to assume a Medic can take a 2 week RN bridge and function as RN, or for RN to take 2 week Medic bridge and function as a Medic. Assuming for some reason that nurses have higher education is not true, believe it or not there are medics who hold Bachelors and Masters degrees with legitimate college level courses and not from an online college and they not your typical "organic chem for nursing" or "bio for nursing" classes that BSN programs have. There are Medics who spend their own money (hospital did not pay for them) to obtain further education by attending classes/conferences. (ACLS, FCCS, Difficult Airway EM, Levitan course, ACLS EP, etc. you get the point). To think that every single Medic is a retard with card is simply not true. In addition most medics have an idea of what nurses do, where nurses rarely have a clue of what we do, and its apparent in posts here and in the hospitals.
3- When I advocate for Medics to get in hospital jobs, such as RN or RTT for critical care experience. This has nothing to do with RN or RTT being higher trained, it's just that working in a hospital facilitates you seeing real medicine and seeing more patients and more cases. Where being a Medic we see less patients in addition if I wanted to gain "rotations" or "clinicals" in a hospital I always have road blocks from the hospital administrators who are usually RN's and seldom understand why would a medic want to come to the ICU. They start with Hippa this or that, you don't need to know this and laugh in your face but expect you to pack up and go in 20 minutes and switch to your equipment with ARDS patient on 10 drips, vented, A-line etc. like you a pro.
I am certain they are plethora of paper Medics or paper Nurses out there who eventually settle in and perform adequately. However don't be surprised if after 2 weeks you are not on the same level as a medic who completed formal education and training for a specific job he/she was specifically trained to perform.
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I really didn't want to get into all this, but I think addressing some misconceptions here is germane to the topic of an RN cross-training or challenging to become a paramedic, so I'll play.
2 practicing RN's and 2 RN students have replied to this thread. All have EMS experience, so I'm not sure why you assume that those who have commented have only a "vague" idea what paramedics do.
For my part, I was a paramedic for 5 years before becoming an RN, and continued to practice in the field until about a year ago when I started grad school. Before becoming a nurse I took all the EMS credential stuff (NREMTP, CCEMTP, etc.) and was one of the first FP-C's. Since becoming a nurse I have been heavily involved in training flight paramedics and flight nurses, which gives me a unique perspective into how each learns and adapts to the other's role. I have also been involved in both nursing and paramedic education, including in-house critical care education, BLS and ALS courses, and lecturing at CCEMTP and similar courses. I have also lectured about CCT issues at the national level at EMS, HEMS/CCT, and RRT conferences. I would not describe myself as an "authority" on anything; more of a jack-of-all trades who has enough background to know what I am talking about in terms of the differences in training and competencies between ICU RN's and EMT-P's.
Who said or implied that RN training automatically "supersedes" paramedic training? No one did.
We are not discussing a brand-new nursing graduate versus a brand-new paramedic program graduate. Clearly, neither one could do the other's job.
However, the OP is not a new grad......he is an experienced ICU and ED nurse, as well as being an EMT for many years. If that is true, then I assure you that the aggregate of his clinical training and experience has way more than covered a paramedic curriculum's worth of information, with the exception perhaps of a few specific skills that can be easily learned. For that reason, attending a full program is not necessary.
The reverse is true, as well. If there were some way for a paramedic to gain years of experience doing RN functions in addition to showing that their education is comparable to that of what RN licensure requires, then I would say it is not necessary for them to attend an entire RN curriculum in order to test for the RN credential. Unfortunately for paramedics, such opportunities for that type of experience just don't exist.
These statements show a pretty big lack of understanding of how RN's function in the real world, especially in ICU's. Nurses are constantly interacting with, collaborating with, and learning from physicians, more experienced nurses, and other clinicians. They are constantly observing and assessing their patients and the way they respond to therapy. They have to think about not only what the primary problem is and how it should be managed, but all of the other important things (nutrition, sleep, positioning, elimination, etc) that are not considered in the field. They often observe or assist with invasive procedures. They monitor arterial lines and handle invasive catheters and vasoactive meds and ventilators and draw labs and deal with critically ill patients daily, not just occasionally. They respond immediately to emergencies, doing what they can until help arrives. What you did in the final year of medic school, an ICU nurse does constantly, every day that he or she is at work. And in many ICU's, the nurses do follow protocols that actually look a lot like EMS protocols.
I do agree with the last sentence in that paragraph, but again, we are not talking about new graduates.
About 50% of RN's now hold a BSN with the number increasing quickly (I think it was less than 25% in 2000), and looking like the industry will meet or come close to its stated goal of 80% by 2020. Nursing education is broad and intentionally non-specialized, covering everything from basic physiology and pharmacology to psychology to nutrition to research, as well as all the general education courses that are required of every baccalaureate program. Some programs dabble in or offer electives in critical care or emergency nursing, but the focus is always on basic care with the idea that the RN will choose a specialty once licensed. Those who graduate from ADN programs have covered all the same material and passed the same licensing exam as the BSN graduates, minus the general education stuff and perhaps some of the clinical hours.
By contrast, while there are some degree programs for paramedics, the large majority of paramedic programs are still 2-semester (3, if you count the EMT-B pre-requisite) vocational programs that focus solely on the very narrow scope of immediate life threats and use textbooks written at a tenth-grade reading comprehension level.
I am NOT saying that nurses are all brilliant and paramedics are all dumb; I am just pointing out that there really is no comparison between the two fields, education-wise.
I'm not sure what the fact that some paramedics hold higher degrees in science has to do with anything. I've met some of those, and I also know second-degree RN's who also have degrees in physiology, chemistry, or engineering.
Just not true. I've known many RN's with strong ICU and/or ED backgrounds come into the flight environment and after a thorough orientation, really rock in the prehospital arena. Many of these took abbreviated paramedic programs or were able to simply take the state certifying exam.
2 practicing RN's and 2 RN students have replied to this thread. All have EMS experience, so I'm not sure why you assume that those who have commented have only a "vague" idea what paramedics do.
For my part, I was a paramedic for 5 years before becoming an RN, and continued to practice in the field until about a year ago when I started grad school. Before becoming a nurse I took all the EMS credential stuff (NREMTP, CCEMTP, etc.) and was one of the first FP-C's. Since becoming a nurse I have been heavily involved in training flight paramedics and flight nurses, which gives me a unique perspective into how each learns and adapts to the other's role. I have also been involved in both nursing and paramedic education, including in-house critical care education, BLS and ALS courses, and lecturing at CCEMTP and similar courses. I have also lectured about CCT issues at the national level at EMS, HEMS/CCT, and RRT conferences. I would not describe myself as an "authority" on anything; more of a jack-of-all trades who has enough background to know what I am talking about in terms of the differences in training and competencies between ICU RN's and EMT-P's.
Who said or implied that RN training automatically "supersedes" paramedic training? No one did.
We are not discussing a brand-new nursing graduate versus a brand-new paramedic program graduate. Clearly, neither one could do the other's job.
However, the OP is not a new grad......he is an experienced ICU and ED nurse, as well as being an EMT for many years. If that is true, then I assure you that the aggregate of his clinical training and experience has way more than covered a paramedic curriculum's worth of information, with the exception perhaps of a few specific skills that can be easily learned. For that reason, attending a full program is not necessary.
The reverse is true, as well. If there were some way for a paramedic to gain years of experience doing RN functions in addition to showing that their education is comparable to that of what RN licensure requires, then I would say it is not necessary for them to attend an entire RN curriculum in order to test for the RN credential. Unfortunately for paramedics, such opportunities for that type of experience just don't exist.
These statements show a pretty big lack of understanding of how RN's function in the real world, especially in ICU's. Nurses are constantly interacting with, collaborating with, and learning from physicians, more experienced nurses, and other clinicians. They are constantly observing and assessing their patients and the way they respond to therapy. They have to think about not only what the primary problem is and how it should be managed, but all of the other important things (nutrition, sleep, positioning, elimination, etc) that are not considered in the field. They often observe or assist with invasive procedures. They monitor arterial lines and handle invasive catheters and vasoactive meds and ventilators and draw labs and deal with critically ill patients daily, not just occasionally. They respond immediately to emergencies, doing what they can until help arrives. What you did in the final year of medic school, an ICU nurse does constantly, every day that he or she is at work. And in many ICU's, the nurses do follow protocols that actually look a lot like EMS protocols.
I do agree with the last sentence in that paragraph, but again, we are not talking about new graduates.
About 50% of RN's now hold a BSN with the number increasing quickly (I think it was less than 25% in 2000), and looking like the industry will meet or come close to its stated goal of 80% by 2020. Nursing education is broad and intentionally non-specialized, covering everything from basic physiology and pharmacology to psychology to nutrition to research, as well as all the general education courses that are required of every baccalaureate program. Some programs dabble in or offer electives in critical care or emergency nursing, but the focus is always on basic care with the idea that the RN will choose a specialty once licensed. Those who graduate from ADN programs have covered all the same material and passed the same licensing exam as the BSN graduates, minus the general education stuff and perhaps some of the clinical hours.
By contrast, while there are some degree programs for paramedics, the large majority of paramedic programs are still 2-semester (3, if you count the EMT-B pre-requisite) vocational programs that focus solely on the very narrow scope of immediate life threats and use textbooks written at a tenth-grade reading comprehension level.
I am NOT saying that nurses are all brilliant and paramedics are all dumb; I am just pointing out that there really is no comparison between the two fields, education-wise.
I'm not sure what the fact that some paramedics hold higher degrees in science has to do with anything. I've met some of those, and I also know second-degree RN's who also have degrees in physiology, chemistry, or engineering.
Just not true. I've known many RN's with strong ICU and/or ED backgrounds come into the flight environment and after a thorough orientation, really rock in the prehospital arena. Many of these took abbreviated paramedic programs or were able to simply take the state certifying exam.
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ExpatMedic0
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I am pretty played out on this whole topic, in regards to to the OP... I hope you have found some useful information from this thread to help answer your question.
Regarding everything else, its a 2 way road. Paramedics in Oregon take mandatory minimum AAS for Paramedic at the community college which mirrors the RN associates degree in our state.
I feel that the Paramedic bachelors degree in Washington state from CWU is also a very strong degree, especially if pared with the right general ed selection. Aside from that, there are plenty of medics with relevant degree's covering the same classes an RN is required to take, excluding the RN program itself.
I will give you this, all Paramedic education is not created equal, and it should be assessed on an individual basis. However, if an RN wants to bridge/challenge to Paramedic in a state, the Paramedic should be allowed to do the same if they meet the same minimum education requirements for pre-rec's, program hours, ect. Otherwise, neither should be allowed to do it IMO.
Regarding everything else, its a 2 way road. Paramedics in Oregon take mandatory minimum AAS for Paramedic at the community college which mirrors the RN associates degree in our state.
I feel that the Paramedic bachelors degree in Washington state from CWU is also a very strong degree, especially if pared with the right general ed selection. Aside from that, there are plenty of medics with relevant degree's covering the same classes an RN is required to take, excluding the RN program itself.
I will give you this, all Paramedic education is not created equal, and it should be assessed on an individual basis. However, if an RN wants to bridge/challenge to Paramedic in a state, the Paramedic should be allowed to do the same if they meet the same minimum education requirements for pre-rec's, program hours, ect. Otherwise, neither should be allowed to do it IMO.
By that logic every RT, RRT, OT, SLP, PT and RD could be RNs also by just challenging the test. Even some of their assessments and charting mirror each other. But, the big difference is each of these other professions work with nurses to have an understanding of how different the job is regardless of the academics. If any of these professionals did want to become an RN, they would have to make sure all of their prerequisites are current and take the nursing theory classes along with the 900 - 1200 hours of clinicals. This is even with the PTs doing 2500 hours of hospital time in their own profession and with assessment skills off the chart in some areas.
CriticalCareIFT
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If you attended a standard Paramedic program (not 2 weeks) and also standard nursing program you should clearly see a distinction of how the jobs differ, and how the schooling and rotations specifically prepare you for said job.
Even though this may get your panties in a bunch here is an example: take a RN who has been an RN for 5 years went to BSN RN school and performs her nursing job well, she was well trained and educated to perform her work as a nurse and now decides to go for CRNA school. Now take a physician who has finished his residency in 3 years and now doing a fellowship in Anesthesia. One of these people was actually trained for a specific job from the start, the other after "after a thorough orientation" will eventually learn and acclimate.
I don't understand this 2 week RN to Paramedic program. What is the criteria for who can attend it, simply being an RN? Do they at least require students to be licensed EMTs?
What if you have an RN who has zero pre hospital EMS experience and may not even have Emergency room experience, are they supposed to magically know about things like vehicle extrication, understand EMS operations, communications, documentation, advanced airway techniques, etc, simply because they are an RN? Most RNs that work in a hospital are not even ACLS or PALS certified. 2 weeks to learn everything a Paramedic knows that an RN has zero experience in seems like a tall order to me, even for an RN with ER experience.
I can understand an RN taking an abbreviated Paramedic course since they already understand(hopefully) important subjects like pharmacology and pathophysiology at a much deeper level than Paramedic training gets into(with some exceptions), but it seems extremely unrealistic to me to expect an RN who has never even been inside of an ambulance to be able to function as a Paramedic after 2 weeks of training, or even 2 months of training.
What if you have an RN who has zero pre hospital EMS experience and may not even have Emergency room experience, are they supposed to magically know about things like vehicle extrication, understand EMS operations, communications, documentation, advanced airway techniques, etc, simply because they are an RN? Most RNs that work in a hospital are not even ACLS or PALS certified. 2 weeks to learn everything a Paramedic knows that an RN has zero experience in seems like a tall order to me, even for an RN with ER experience.
I can understand an RN taking an abbreviated Paramedic course since they already understand(hopefully) important subjects like pharmacology and pathophysiology at a much deeper level than Paramedic training gets into(with some exceptions), but it seems extremely unrealistic to me to expect an RN who has never even been inside of an ambulance to be able to function as a Paramedic after 2 weeks of training, or even 2 months of training.
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DrankTheKoolaid
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Those condensed RN - MiCP courses are not for new grad floor nurses. They are geared towards nurses with ER and ICU experience
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The transition courses are designed to do exactly that... they take the RN and provide them the EMS operations stuff that they don't get in RN school. Then I would expect that any company that hires them to be a Paramedic would then provide them the FTO time to meet their standards. The transition course is simply designed to do the same thing that a Paramedic program is designed to do: turn out safe, beginning Paramedics. Personally, I'd prefer that any "transition to" Paramedic program have some sort of a field internship associated with it because that allows more time to get involved in the operational aspects of prehospital care and more time for a preceptor to help the RN develop an appropriate Paramedic mind-set in a structured learning environment instead of being under the eyes of an FTO, with the associated threat of failing probation while learning the ropes of ambulance life.
VFlutter
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I do not see your point. They both had a generalist eduction and then decided to further their education and specialize. The MD did not train to be an Anesthesiologist from the start, they trained to be a Physician, which in large is a totally different job role. They started training for Anesthesia when they started their fellowship. I do not think anyone is going to argue that a CRNA is the same as a MDA. But I will let Halothane respond further.
Oh and why is the Nurse a "She" and the MD a "He". That is sexist, Bro
Most of the good programs, like Creighton, require EMT-B, 2 years ICU experience, and ACLS/PALS prior to taking the course. Some require TNCC or EPNC (Nursing specific Trauma and Emergency nursing courses). I do not know of any program that will take new grad RNs and I do not think anyone here is trying to advocate that.
CriticalCareIFT
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One "generalist education" had himI do not see your point. They both had a generalist eduction and then decided to further their education and specialize. The MD did not train to be an Anesthesiologist from the start, they trained to be a Physician, which in large is a totally different job role. They started training for Anesthesia when they started their fellowship. I do not think anyone is going to argue that a CRNA is the same as a MDA. But I will let Halothane respond further.
Oh and why is the Nurse a "She" and the MD a "He". That is sexist, Bro
intubating, using RSI medications that he decided/ordered to use, had anesthesia clerkship even before the fellowship, was educated on a medical model to assess patients and order treatment not carry out orders and perform nursing interventions etc and was functioning in the role of a physician from the start. Certainly anyone can see RN and MD are on equal footing with their generalist education right before the start of their fellowship.- Status