Cyanide question

[mycrofft]

Well that part I know.

From the many resources I've searched, all 3 ultimately both bind to hemoglobin displacing oxygen AND inhibit cytocrome c oxidase.

My question is, where does the primary damage from each come from.

I think I'm right in saying CO mainly from displacing oxygen and the latter two primarily inhibit the ETC

Just wanted to be certain.

Cellular hypoxia then? Kind of like if you had a competitive antagonist (like antibodies) against insulin, with lots of sugar around but the cell can't accept or utilize it?

 

[NYMedic828]

Cellular hypoxia then? Kind of like if you had a competitive antagonist (like antibodies) against insulin, with lots of sugar around but the cell can't accept or utilize it?

All 3 cause hypoxia regardless of stable PaO2/SpO2.

All 3 are histotoxins that cause histotoxic hypoxia.

The simple answer from what I've been reading is

Carbon Monoxide binds to hemoglobin 200-250x more readily than oxygen. It also binds to cytochrome c oxidase but it more readily stays at the hemoglobin level. The primary action is displacement of oxygen though.

Hydrogen Cyanide and sulfide are truer histotoxins in that they bind to hemoglobin as well but they more ready bind directly to cytochrome c oxidase ultimately preventing production of ATP, asphyxiating the cells.

All of the above will also bind to methemoglobin more readily than hemoglobin making therapeutic metehemoglobinemia the potential cure.

CO poisoning can usually be handled via hyperbaric therapies.

H2S depending on the degree may require sodium nitrite and hyperbaric therapies.

HCN requires hydroxocobalamin as well as sodium thiosulfate.

In theory cyanide is easier to fix than sulfide but cyanide is such a lethal substance the opportunity to fix it usually passes by too quickly.

 

[mycrofft]

If you think about it:
1. Anoxia without cellular blockade takes a bit to kill or injure organs because of residual oxygen (and maybe someone regularly and briskly pressing and releasing your sternum).
2. If the cells CAN'T accept O2, use O2, or cast off CO2, then the damage starts as quickly as each cell need more oxygen. Which could be immediately.

 

[Handsome Robb]

While you're all at it, being smart and all, can anyone shed any light on why cyanide related illness seems to get a lot exposure in american EMS but we people who stand on our heads and ride kangaroos don't ever mention it.

I don't think the word cyanide was mentioned once in the whole of uni and certainly never since. Why is that do you reckon?

I'm hesitant to say it but we spent a decent amount of time on it in class. All the mining in Nevada uses cyanide and it's almost a daily occurrence for a train car with tons of compressed cyanide to roll through our cities in NV as well as having even larger storage tanks out on the refinery grounds full of the stuff sitting around.

You should see the train cars they use to transport it. Same color scheme as a candy cane. They can have either the vertical stripe like in the picture below or a horizontal red strip.

 

[bigbaldguy]

I'm hesitant to say it but we spent a decent amount of time on it in class. All the mining in Nevada uses cyanide and it's almost a daily occurrence for a train car with tons of compressed cyanide to roll through our cities in NV as well as having even larger storage tanks out on the refinery grounds full of the stuff sitting around.

You should see the train cars they use to transport it. Same color scheme as a candy cane. They can have either the vertical stripe like in the picture below or a horizontal red strip.

Good info. I've seen those tanks but didn't know about the color coding.

 

[AnthonyM83]

My understanding is it inhibits the final electron acceptance in the electron transport chain.

 

[Melclin]

I'm hesitant to say it but we spent a decent amount of time on it in class. All the mining in Nevada uses cyanide and it's almost a daily occurrence for a train car with tons of compressed cyanide to roll through our cities in NV as well as having even larger storage tanks out on the refinery grounds full of the stuff sitting around.

You should see the train cars they use to transport it. Same color scheme as a candy cane. They can have either the vertical stripe like in the picture below or a horizontal red strip.

One supposes we must use it for something as well, but I know almost nothing about the stuff. Perhaps I'd better get a googlin'.

 

[mycrofft]

In many biochemical compounds.
Also a product of combustion of many man-made materials

 

[NYMedic828]

Cyanide is a very abundant byproduct of the burning of hydrocarbons.

Plastic/styrofoam + fire = cyanide + CO