The Importance of Being Spinally Immobilized

Smash

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We all know how important it is that patients get a c-collar and LSB if they have been in a car crash, witnessed a car crash, driven past a car crash, saw a car crash on the TV news, or heard about a car crash from an old college buddy whose wife's cousin was nearly in a car crash last week.
If we do not put a c-collar on and strap these patients to a LSB immediately, there is a 125% likelihood that their head will fall off, which, whilst making airway management easier, will definitely land you in court getting sued for elventybillion dollars, and/or your cert pulled.

We know this. This is Truth.

Imagine, then, my surprise; nay, outrage! at the following passage from some mouth-breathing, knock-kneed, pigeon-toed, sunken-chested, ivory-tower-dwelling rubber loving Barbie-thumper who fancies himself "Editor" of some rag called the "Journal of Trauma"

“…the more compelling question is whether there is a place for collars in emergent protection of the injured cervical spine or are they simply a gimcrack?
The incidence of second injuries to the spinal cord in the extraction of accident victims under the best of EMT performance is not known and would be difficult to determine. However, in an effort to minimize that incidence, paramedical gospel is the application of a cervical collar, maintaining the neck in in-line and in a neutral position. By definition, this gospel implies the deliberate movement of the neck to apply an orthotic known to be nonprotective. Furthermore, the neutral and in-line admonition implies that the patient’s neck position can be safely adjusted to “look better” without a shred of evidence that this might be a safer strategy than avoiding any unnecessary neck movement whatsoever….
…In a conclusion common to many small study reports, the authors recommend that more work should be done in this area. In my opinion that might be best in refinements of extraction methods with an eye to only that neck movement necessary to resuscitation, collar be damned.”

(URL=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21217496]J Trauma, January 2011[/URL])

Reading the article to which he was referring, it seems that by placing a c-collar on a patient with an unstable fracture, we create 2 pivot points around which the spine can distract, potentially worsening injury when a patient is moved... allegedly! This of course follows on from the other nonsense that showed that the collar itself (even without movement) can cause distraction of up to 11mm between C1 and C2 when a fracture is present.

So please, comrades, ensure you do not read such propaganda, and continue to pass down the Teaching of the Collar for as long as EMS exists.
 

Aidey

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You forgot "elitist".
 

DesertMedic66

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having their head and neck in an in-line position makes airway management a lot easier. if their head is turned to the right inside the ambulance it makes it difficult if not impossible to do airway management. and also getting a patient out of a wrecked car isnt the easiest thing to do by far.
 

Veneficus

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umm.

As I recall the original purpose of a c collar was to restrict vertical compression, not to provide restriction for any other type of movement.
 

usafmedic45

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So please, comrades, ensure you do not read such propaganda, and continue to pass down the Teaching of the Collar for as long as EMS exists.

Please tell me you're :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing joking.

from some mouth-breathing, knock-kneed, pigeon-toed, sunken-chested, ivory-tower-dwelling rubber loving Barbie-thumper who fancies himself "Editor" of some rag called the "Journal of Trauma"

Welcome to the land of libel. LOL Even if you're kidding, that's bloody harsh.

allegedly!
You got proof that it doesn't? It seems like they have more evidence than you do for your stance.
As I recall the original purpose of a c collar was to restrict vertical compression, not to provide restriction for any other type of movement.

Exactly. It was also developed in the days when the standard for cervical spine injury was traction and stabilization. The actual article (the carefully selected snippet aside) actually has some pretty good data to back up the contentions of the author.
 
OP
OP
Smash

Smash

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Sweet screaming jesus on a pogo stick! Clearly something is lost in translation here.

When the preface is "c-collars must be applied to people who have seen a car crash on TV, or there is a 125% chance their head will fall off and you will be sued for eleventy billion dollars" does nobody think that perhaps I type in jest?

I shall delete the first post and in future attempt to remember that I am apparently dealing with a population who has had a complete Humorectomy.

I'll type slowly for the next bit:

C-Collars have little evidence for their use. C-Collars have some evidence that they cause harm. Maybe we shouldn't be putting them on everyone, or possibly even on anyone.
 

usafmedic45

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I figured you were joking but was less certain the further I read.
 

Tanker299

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Welcome to the land of libel. LOL Even if you're kidding, that's bloody harsh.

Libel? Holy mother of Odin, dude, seriously, step away from that pulpit. I know I'm new here but come on, you need to lighten up and unwind somewhat.

That post is 100% in jest and you know it, regardless of how far you read on it.
I thoroughly enjoy this site and have learned a great deal from the threads here. I also come here for related humor within our chosen field. Don't spoil my newly found passion for EMS dude.
 

boingo

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C-Collars have little evidence for their use. C-Collars have some evidence that they cause harm. Maybe we shouldn't be putting them on everyone, or possibly even on anyone.

You do know it isn't a bunch of ambulance guys coming up with treatment protocols, right? A bunch of guys (and gals) with MD after their names seem to think it is still a good idea. Until the physicians that make policy have a change of heart on the subject, c collars will be placed unnecessarily.

Even in hospital, at least around here, someone presenting to the ED w/mechanism and complaint, that can't be cleared by recognized criteria get a collar applied pending radiology.
 

Veneficus

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You do know it isn't a bunch of ambulance guys coming up with treatment protocols, right? A bunch of guys (and gals) with MD after their names seem to think it is still a good idea. Until the physicians that make policy have a change of heart on the subject, c collars will be placed unnecessarily.

I would not say it is that simple.

Once upon a time a group of those MDs got together and tried to come up with an idea on what might help based on what they were observing and the known medical science of the time.

In today's medicine which is much different, there is the reliance of multiple irrefutable studies to come up with the "best practice." Some studies will never be possible in order to meet the extreme level of this burdon of proof. For example you couldn't possibly do a study on the outcome of those who called 911 and received paramedic care vs those who got nothing at all.

There is also an issue with "standard" of care from a legal standpoint. It is very difficult and assumes an inordinate amount of risk to be the first to change even when a medical director is convinced current EMS treatment is not working or harmful.

If doctor X decided his service would no longer use C collars, as soon as some Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe "are you the victim of medical malpractice come see us for your free consultation" commercial came on, the person or estate would basically be that attorney's wet dream. Violation of a standard in every printed textbook, in every modern country with EMS, practiced without exception over decades, no witness to possibly refute the treatment, and popular culture demanding/expecting that is the treatment. There is no way for the doctor to win that. So the procedure stands simply because nobody can accept the risk of changing it.

Even in hospital, at least around here, someone presenting to the ED w/mechanism and complaint, that can't be cleared by recognized criteria get a collar applied pending radiology.

I am sorry, but it is not like that everywhere.
 

Aidey

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I

If doctor X decided his service would no longer use C collars, as soon as some Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe "are you the victim of medical malpractice come see us for your free consultation" commercial came on, the person or estate would basically be that attorney's wet dream. Violation of a standard in every printed textbook, in every modern country with EMS, practiced without exception over decades, no witness to possibly refute the treatment, and popular culture demanding/expecting that is the treatment. There is no way for the doctor to win that. So the procedure stands simply because nobody can accept the risk of changing it.


That is why I wish there was an up-to-date national EMS board that issued treatment and protocol recommendations.
 

boingo

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I would not say it is that simple.

Once upon a time a group of those MDs got together and tried to come up with an idea on what might help based on what they were observing and the known medical science of the time.

In today's medicine which is much different, there is the reliance of multiple irrefutable studies to come up with the "best practice." Some studies will never be possible in order to meet the extreme level of this burdon of proof. For example you couldn't possibly do a study on the outcome of those who called 911 and received paramedic care vs those who got nothing at all.

There is also an issue with "standard" of care from a legal standpoint. It is very difficult and assumes an inordinate amount of risk to be the first to change even when a medical director is convinced current EMS treatment is not working or harmful.

If doctor X decided his service would no longer use C collars, as soon as some Dewy, Cheatum, and Howe "are you the victim of medical malpractice come see us for your free consultation" commercial came on, the person or estate would basically be that attorney's wet dream. Violation of a standard in every printed textbook, in every modern country with EMS, practiced without exception over decades, no witness to possibly refute the treatment, and popular culture demanding/expecting that is the treatment. There is no way for the doctor to win that. So the procedure stands simply because nobody can accept the risk of changing it.



I am sorry, but it is not like that everywhere.

Outside the U.S., I'm sure you are correct. The fact is, EMS procedures are not made up by EMS providers, it is the physicians in charge of regional and state EMS agencies that come up with protocols, therefore, if we want change in a practice that has no evidence of helping and some evidence of harm, it needs to be the physicians to push the change, or am I missing something here?
 

usalsfyre

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Outside the U.S., I'm sure you are correct. The fact is, EMS procedures are not made up by EMS providers, it is the physicians in charge of regional and state EMS agencies that come up with protocols,

Wrong. Maybe in your area but in many places treatment protocols are formed SOLELY by the providers, education departments and medical control physicians of a particular service.


therefore, if we want change in a practice that has no evidence of helping and some evidence of harm, it needs to be the physicians to push the change, or am I missing something here?

Your missing the "legal standard of care". You'll get your @ss sued off even if it's providing no benefit because that's the "standard" (even though the "standard" is based on utter and complete BS).

Another example is CT for say abdominal pain. We know that the amount of radiation that people who get frequent CTs is going to someday cause them an issue. Yet even people with chronic pain who's current crisis can be reliably chalked up a preexisting condition get scanned when they come to the ED. Why? Because missing a zebra one time can cause finical ruin. It's just not worth it to most people, hence the useless and idiotic procedures.
 

boingo

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Wrong. Maybe in your area but in many places treatment protocols are formed SOLELY by the providers, education departments and medical control physicians of a particular service.

OK, but in the end, someone with MD after their name is giving their blessing, no? So, if you decide as the paramedic to remove c-collars from your practice, it will be a physician that ultimately takes responsibility for that decision.

The OP seemed to suggest that the myth of the magic c-collar is somehow EMS driven, when EMS, at least in the U.S. is governed by physicians. Even in Texas.
 
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usalsfyre

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OK, but in the end, someone with MD after their name is giving their blessing, no? So, if you decide as the paramedic to remove c-collars from your practice, it will be a physician that ultimately takes responsibility for that decision.

Yep, which is why you won't ever see them removed.

The OP seemed to suggest that the myth of the magic c-collar is somehow EMS driven, when EMS, at least in the U.S. is governed by physicians. Even in Texas.

It's both physician driven AND EMS driven. It's physician driven for reasons stated before. It's EMS driven because if you totally removed spinal immobilization from EMS care then a certain group of providers would be greatly devalued. This group is VERY likely to scream and yell. Many of them don't understand why immobilization is not helpful/harmful in the first place. It's also EMS driven because of an unholy aversion to taking responsibility for anything that may turn out to be harmful. "Well it's protocol so I did it" is not a good reason.
 
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Jon

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Heres the thing - has there ever been a clinical trial showing that spine boards prevent any injury whatsoever?
 

Veneficus

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Heres the thing - has there ever been a clinical trial showing that spine boards prevent any injury whatsoever?

Not to my knowledge, only showing harm.

But in fairness I think it would be impossible to create such a study.

That is my point though, most EMS practices were started because of expert opinion. Those treatments are treated like gospel and new treatments or removing treatments is expected to meet a far higher burdon of evidence.
 
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OP
OP
Smash

Smash

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Does the MAS have eleventybillion dollars to pay for your lawsuit?

Yes, Brown knows :D

No, but then they don't exist anymore, so it's a moot point.

Keep up Brown!
 
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