Self Defense for EMS

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medic8613

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Should EMS providers be allowed to carry some sort of weapon if properly trained to do so? Why or why not?

I'm not talking pocket knives and maglites. OC spray, collapsible batons, tasers, firearms, swords, hand grenades, etc.
 

kiwimedic

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Oh yes please!!

If the Police get a vest and lots of toys then we EMS providers whould get something, we deal with nutters and people who are high too!

I'd be happy with a stab resistant vest and either OC spray or a ASP baton. I would perfer OC spray because it a) works better and b) you can be further away from the guy.

Your Maglite with D-Cell batteries works equally well as a club when it has to. The cops dont always appreciate that, and if memory serves, one of our Paramedics got in warm water for smacking a guy with his a while ago. He didn't get done or anything but it shows we do have a need for them.
 

ffemt8978

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JJR512

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I am not sure how I feel about weapons, even self defense weapons. A weapon can always be taken away from you and used against you or others with you. Pepper spray or mace sprayed in an ambulance can affect everyone.

However, I will suggest this: If you insist on having something like that, keep it concealed (unless it is illegal to do so in your jurisdiction). For one thing, it presents a negative image. For another thing, a bad guy can't try to take it from you if he/she doesn't know you have it.
 

firetender

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In some of the tougher neighborhoods I worked in, it was essential to my own safety that I be known as "NOTACOP". Not only did that allow me to move more fluidly amongst everyone, but it made it clear that in no way was I a potential threat. At times, I was the one to intercede with the cops to offset violence.

Now, I've had partners who carried derringers with them, and my experience was those that did had a tendency to let others know about it. Why this is I cannot say, but I can also say that word gets out and when that happens you lose the confidence of a significant part of the people you serve -- small, but significant because if you're viewed as the enemy, that puts a Bull's Eye on your butt.

I do believe, however, that ALL Medics should be trained in self-defense, including tips on the use of available materials in the ambulance as weapons to disable an attacker. But just the presence of an intentional weapon tweaks the Medic's psyche to put some of his/her attention, at least, on anticipation of violence which, as we know, can breed more violence.
 

Ridryder911

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Want to see a medic go to jail, allow them to carry a weapon or strike a patient.

First, read DT4EMS posts, and take courses similar to his for defensive response of to safely removing yourself from a dangerous situation.

We have NO legal authority to carry or to use such devices. We are health care providers, not LEO.

Yes, there are times we have to attempt to defend ourselves. Many of the situation could have been prevented by scene overview, making sure there are no weapons on the patient.

Clubbing, striking a patient (especially a known psychiatric) is a felony in most states. One would have to definite prove that the patient was using equal or greater force to validate a weapon. The best defense is a good offense.

R/r 911
 
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medic8613

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We have NO legal authority to carry or to use such devices. We are health care providers, not LEO.

Ummm...check the Constitution of the United States of America. We do have not just the authority, but the right to carry a legally licensed weapon. Nearly all states issue concealed carry permits. Maybe not just to anyone, but it is most likely possible for certain people to have such a permit. And if people are trained on when they can and cannot use a weapon, the legal implications of striking a patient in self defense could be lessened.
 

firecoins

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Most EMS providers I am familiar with will not allow you to carry a fire arm on duty. Too much liability. So 2nd amendment rights are moot if you choose to ride on an ambulance. Outside, If your willing to go through the legal rollercoaster on gun ownership, your on your own.

Safe scenes can become unsafe very quickly. A gun isn't going to help in many situations. Either its overkill, will end up being used against you or you will be overconfident and enter a scene you shouldn't have to begin with. Cops go through hell when they were clearly in the right to use their service weapon. We will catch twice the hell with and lack the legal support system cops get with the PBA.

The solution is too seriously study a martial art that teaches legit self defense. I mean legit in the way that many "karate" places teach cardio kickboxing/aeobics which is no good. I mean a martial art that teaches realistc self defense combined with some sports martial arts to keep in good shape. BJJ and a legit Krav Maga teacher comes to mind.
 

Jon

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AwJeezNotThisSheetAgain1.jpg



If someone on the crew is carrying a concealed weapon... and is licensed/trained in its' use (probably LEO's) then I don't have a big problem with it being carried... but CONCEALED means CONCEALED. I shouldn't know about it... and the Patient shouldn't know about it. It needs to be hidden so that a patient can't see it... for EVERYONE's safety. The only reason that firearm would be presented would be if someone was shooting at my partner (and hopefully if someone was shooting at me, too). At that point, I'd have no problem with it.

I've got a big problem with "I'm a super EMT. I want a gun" (Or Tazer, or OC spray). I do find the "I am NOT THE POLICE" bit to be a big chunk of my descalation techniques. I know that I'll loose a lot of this the day that I start carrying visible weapons for work.
 

Hastings

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To be honest, a weapon shouldn't be necessary if you are following all the guidelines a trained paramedic / EMT should in regards to scene safety.

An EMS provider should never find themself in a situation where self-defense is necessary in the first place, and if they do, they made a mistake. Thankfully, law enforcement works very closely with EMS.
 

Summit

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paging DT4EMS
 

ffemt8978

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To be honest, a weapon shouldn't be necessary if you are following all the guidelines a trained paramedic / EMT should in regards to scene safety.

An EMS provider should never find themself in a situation where self-defense is necessary in the first place, and if they do, they made a mistake. Thankfully, law enforcement works very closely with EMS.

Have you ever had a "safe" scene go sour on you? What about those areas where law enforcement is 30-45 minutes away? We shouldn't be entering a scene unless it's safe, but not every scene stays safe. In addition, most law enforcement will NOT transport in the back of an ambulance to assist with a violent patient. They may or may not follow the ambulance, but there could be a couple of minutes that you're on your own with a violent patient. What do you do then?

I'm not saying EMS should be armed, but I am truly distressed that you appear to have an unrealistic view scene safety. It's attitudes like that that get EMS workers hurt.
 
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medic8613

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To be honest, a weapon shouldn't be necessary if you are following all the guidelines a trained paramedic / EMT should in regards to scene safety.

An EMS provider should never find themself in a situation where self-defense is necessary in the first place, and if they do, they made a mistake. Thankfully, law enforcement works very closely with EMS.

In a perfect world, where every arrest is a save, and we get to eat lunch in peace, yes, a scene will always be safe if we do the right things. The bad news is that this is the real world, and even if we do everything right, things can still go bad.
 
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medic8613

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I've got a big problem with "I'm a super EMT. I want a gun" (Or Tazer, or OC spray).[/QUOTE]

I'm not talking about being "super medics" and going places we shouldn't, or attempting things we have no business doing. I mean having the ability to quickly and effectively defend ourselves if necessary. And a weapon should be concealed so a patient can't know that it is being carried...thats up there with hide the sharp stuff from the psych patient, and leave the leatherman in the front seat while transporting someone from jail.
 

firecoins

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I'm not talking about being "super medics" and going places we shouldn't, or attempting things we have no business doing. I mean having the ability to quickly and effectively defend ourselves if necessary. And a weapon should be concealed so a patient can't know that it is being carried...thats up there with hide the sharp stuff from the psych patient, and leave the leatherman in the front seat while transporting someone from jail.

the second you fire a weapon in self defense, no matter how much in the right you think you are, your EMS career is over.
 

Ridryder911

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Want to loose a career.. taze, strike, hit, pepper spray, a patient.

Guaranteed new career builder, you will need one after they personally sue you. There is no mention in any curriculum in use of protective devices, or protection, other than using approved defense courses such as DT4EMS offers to remove one self safely from the scene or to have a plan to either to physically restrain or chemically restrain.

Even if it is an officer off duty, if the company does not have a policy or bond that person, their actions is upon their own.

Do we need to learn protective ways.... Yes. Do we need more than that.. NO! Remember, we only need to protect ourselves from injury or basically remove ourselves within arms danger. We are not there to enforce combat, protect our equipment, etc. Just enough to get away from danger only.

Let's be realistic. Weapons are prohibited from health care providers .. period, unless that service is from an Law Enforcement Agency. I know of no EMS providers that have education and training in weapons, or even interaction of violent patients, other than for safe removal of the medic.


R/r 911
 
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Flight-LP

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Have you ever had a "safe" scene go sour on you? What about those areas where law enforcement is 30-45 minutes away? We shouldn't be entering a scene unless it's safe, but not every scene stays safe. In addition, most law enforcement will NOT transport in the back of an ambulance to assist with a violent patient.

I actually have one simple rule when it comes to a potentially violent patient. Give me one implication that you will attempt to harm me or any member of my crew and you go with PD. Simple as that. If I am on an air unit and I must for some reason transport you, you will be RSI'd and placed on the vent. Problem solved. In case of contingency, appropriate pharmacological interventions are ready and waiting should you have an acute change of heart. If there is an immediate threat to life, meaning not that he/she is thinking about harming you, but you are actually getting your *** whipped, then and only then may you use the minimum amount of force necessary to neutralize the threat. Proper securing techniques, always having an out, and having your monitor nearby (preferrably a ZOll M series, very effective) can help reduce your likelyhood of harm.

Other pearls of wisdom..........

Your own gun will do one of two things, either get you killed, or get you fired (and subsequently incarcerated, sued, etc......) There is no need to carry one and one needs to realize that 2nd ammendment rights do not apply to many forms of privatization. Not to mention that most hospitals will allow a weapon on their premises, licensed or not. And guess what, they have every right to dictate so!

Remember that the emergency is theirs, not yours, so don't go and make it yours by playing hero. Staging is your friend!

Keep it safe this holiday season!
 

DT4EMS

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To be honest, a weapon shouldn't be necessary if you are following all the guidelines a trained paramedic / EMT should in regards to scene safety.

An EMS provider should never find themself in a situation where self-defense is necessary in the first place, and if they do, they made a mistake. Thankfully, law enforcement works very closely with EMS.

I wish that were true. According to the last study by the NAEMT, 52% of INJURIES to the EMS provider came from assaults. My question is this........ If medics didn't enter unsafe scenes..........then are they being assaulted on "safe" ones?

My goal has never changed......... it is to prevent one assault from taking place (either to the provider or the patient). Anyone with any experience on the street knows things can turn south pretty quick. Early recognition and diffusion can work if used early.
 

DT4EMS

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I have told the sotry before on how my ambulance was car-jacked while it was loaded with a patient. I was in the back and down the road we went.... being a full-time police officr and a part-time medic I always had a gun with me.

That day I didn't have it with me. During the course of the kidnapping (3 counts) and the felony assault that took place as I slammed the ambulance in park ( reaching through the opening) I would have been justified in shooting the suspect. INstead it was hands on and everything turned out OK.

I fear the headlines would have read "Paramedic shoots man in ambulance" and that is all people would remember reading. Since that day, I never carried a gun concealed on an ambulance. I also "suggested" against it in every lecture/seminar I gave.

Now, do I feel EMS should have some "tool" for extricating themselves if things go south........ Yes, Yes, Yes. But that "tool" would need to be based on the need of that person and their ability to show proficiency in it's use and legal documentation of that use.

I still think the majority of time needs to be spent on recognition of body language, verbal skills and actual empty hand ESCAPE moves. MMA type fighting is not the goal in EMS. Remember self-defense would be boring to watch on TV. If one person keeps his/her hands up and backs away the crowd would boo. Keep that in mind while you train :)
 

certguy

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I was on calls where I had to defend myself and / or my partner . My and my partner's safety are first and formost . I have a martial arts background . I have a first degree black belt in AAM - KA - JUTSU . If you are interested in martial arts , study an ecletric art that uses both soft and hard styles , you'll have more options to work with ( joint locks , take downs , and pressure points in addition to good old fashioned thrash and bash ) I used to carry a streamlite ( less bulky than the mag ) , a kubaton , a minimaglite ( can be used the same way ) , and a folding Kershaw knife as last ditch ( never had to use it thank god ) The best defense is good size - up skills and situation awarness , though at times you can get caught by surprize .
 
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