Requiring Post-High School education? (Associates Degrees / Bachelor Degrees / Etc)

[Jon]

In another thread a member asked about a rumor they had heard that an associates degree would be required by his state to become an EMT, and/or a Paramedic.

The original thread is here:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=28590
That thread was closed because community members were unable to actually discuss the issue because of glaring spelling and grammatical errors in the OP's post. That said, I've re-posted the topic, and I, for one, would like to see the discussion continue - without the Grammar Police derailing the thread.

So... Anyone have a State that is requiring a degree (at some level) to become a Paramedic? How about for EMT's?

 

[Handsome Robb]

In another thread a member asked about a rumor they had heard that an associates degree would be required by his state to become an EMT, and/or a Paramedic.

The original thread is here:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=28590
That thread was closed because community members were unable to actually discuss the issue because of glaring spelling and grammatical errors in the OP's post. That said, I've re-posted the topic, and I, for one, would like to see the discussion continue - without the Grammar Police derailing the thread.

So... Anyone have a State that is requiring a degree (at some level) to become a Paramedic? How about for EMT's?

I'm pretty sure both Washington and Oregon do for Medic. Or maybe it's one or the other...I'm almost positive they both do though.

 

[TatuICU]

Nothing that I know of for EMT's. There's was something going before the capital that was going to require an AS for paramedics starting in like 2015 (I think) but the Vo-Tech mafia actually went and lobbied and screamed and threw temper tantrums against education, and apparently got someone to listen to their stupid asses and now it doesn't appear that's going to happen. Have you ever heard of people arguing against education???

 

[bstone]

EMT's?

 

[ffemt8978]

The original thread in question claimed that an associates degree was going to be required for an EMT.

I'm going to give bstone the benefit of the doubt and hope that this thread was not going to have another grammar/spelling hijack.

 

[bstone]

An AA/AS degree for EMTs should be met with some sort of benefit, but it most certainly should not be required. For paramedics an AA/AS should be the bare minimum level of education required.

 

[Handsome Robb]

EMT's?

Dude the whole point of this thread was to keep the grammatical discussion out of it. I'm not a mod but drop the subject. We all know you have an issue with it, don't suck this thread down, It's a good discussion topic. I don't care if you're an educator with more experience.

As I said in the other thread I think eventually it should move towards dropping the BLS level except in special circumstances (read: rural), EMT being at the ILS level with an AAS and Paramedic being ALS with a BS. Hopefully with a unified name as well.

edit: I personally think if the topic was prefaced with a warning against arguments and comments about grammar, after the original thread was closed for that very reason, that the benefit of the doubt shouldn't be given but that's just me.

 

[Zeroo]

Not that I have heard of in my state. Probably won't be happening here any time soon. Brand new EMT finished the class in december. Although I am all for it ... as long as they accept an unrelated degree. For examply a degree in fire protection and safety technology.

 

[Justice]

Raise the standard to become an EMT and you raise the quality of the EMT.

Rather then state how underpaid EMS is lets talk about how we can change that.

I dont mean to insult anyone but for $5,500 anyone can become a Paramedic where I live.

We should be fighting for this to happen, not against it.

be nice

 

[looker]

Thank you for starting this topic again, i wanted to post a reply but it was locked.

In order for government to require minimum education there must be safety reason for it.

First let talk about Med school. Government have decide that in order for person to be a doctor they must demonstrate that they have required skills. This is done by going to med school but no where have government said that you must get bs/ba degree in order to attend med school. This requirement was made up by the industry. In India for example you can go to med school directly from high school. They call it 3 years of hell but after you done with it you are a doctor. No reason this could not be done in USA.

So what does EMS field have that requires someone to have minimum education that would result in minimum of AA. AA/AS degree is reading/writing/science/math etc. The reality AA have nothing that would benefit the patient safety/experience. If you can't write well enough for company to bill insurance/government etc you will be fired. As it is there currently nothing in the industry that would result in AA requirement.

I understand that at the end of the day having higher education requirement will result in less people getting in the field, resulting in pay increase. However just saying it should be done is not enough. I have read many threads on this issue and no one have yet demonstrated what AA/AS would do for care/experience/safety of the patient.

 

[bigbaldguy]

There is currently no real incentive for a medic to get a degree so if they want medics to get degrees they either have to offer such an incentive (a carrot) or create a disincentive (a stick). Companies who run EMS operations will fight any attempt at offering carrots because carrots cost money and EMS companies are all about maximizing profits. That means the only viable option for pushing medics into degrees is by punishing them if they don't get one. I don't think that will happen either because the system needs lots of medics who are willing to work for low wages and crappy hours and college trained folks are kinda picky about that kind of thing. Add to all this the fact that improvements in technology are lowering the actual skill set that medics are required to have (think easy IO's that a 5 year old can use and king tubes that don't require fancy intubation skills) and it all points to ain't gonna happen.

It will be interesting to see what happens when they start drawing down troop levels and all those GI's start looking for jobs. I suspect that fields like EMS will see an influx. On the one hand this means more cheap labor for EMS companies on the other these guys will have GI bills to burn and there will be lots of schools looking to get their hands on that money.

 

[JPINFV]

First let talk about Med school. Government have decide that in order for person to be a doctor they must demonstrate that they have required skills. This is done by going to med school but no where have government said that you must get bs/ba degree in order to attend med school. This requirement was made up by the industry. In India for example you can go to med school directly from high school. They call it 3 years of hell but after you done with it you are a doctor. No reason this could not be done in USA.

Actually, very few medical schools require more than 90 units of post secondary education to be admitted. However considering somewhere around half (probably more now) of applicants don't get in anyplace, I would be remiss to recommend anyone apply without an undergraduate degree. The more concerning trend, in my opinion, is the growing percent of medical students with a graduate degree (30% if I recall correctly, and that was a few years ago), thus leading to increased student loan debt in new physicians. If anything, the requirement is made by having a drastic excess of applicants than seats.

However, medicine being a graduate degree is a US/Canadian quirk. In most other countries medicine is an undergraduate degree of varying length (MBBS degree). However we also now need to compare the complete education system as different societies have different education systems completely. The UK education system isn't completely comparable to the US education system.

So what does EMS field have that requires someone to have minimum education that would result in minimum of AA. AA/AS degree is reading/writing/science/math etc. The reality AA have nothing that would benefit the patient safety/experience. If you can't write well enough for company to bill insurance/government etc you will be fired. As it is there currently nothing in the industry that would result in AA requirement.

Admittedly, the degree itself isn't important. What's important is requiring that students have the proper foundation regardless of whether a degree is granted in the end or not. However what a degree does do is give a baseline to understand what the education is. If someone has an AS, you have a rough idea what they have achieved academically. If someone has a BS, you have a rough idea of what they have achieved academically. However, how can you compare someone who simply has a certificate of completion?

I have read many threads on this issue and no one have yet demonstrated what AA/AS would do for care/experience/safety of the patient.

Serious question: Do you think that paramedics should be constrained to following a cookbook like protocol, or that they should have the ability to exercise judgement on what interventions they provide and how they provide it? The fundamental question of "How should paramedics think?" is what should drive education. Please note that this should not be constrained to the current demands and limitations in place, but a long term, "where should paramedicine be" goal.

 

[looker]

Admittedly, the degree itself isn't important. What's important is requiring that students have the proper foundation regardless of whether a degree is granted in the end or not. However what a degree does do is give a baseline to understand what the education is. If someone has an AS, you have a rough idea what they have achieved academically. If someone has a BS, you have a rough idea of what they have achieved academically. However, how can you compare someone who simply has a certificate of completion?

This is the main issue. Is it EMS agency job to make sure a person have baseline of education when wanting to work in EMS field? The simple answer is no. Regulations are set up to make sure ems personal/public stay safe. It have nothing to do with mandating that a person get understanding of what education can do for them. That should be personal choice of each person

Serious question: Do you think that paramedics should be constrained to following a cookbook like protocol, or that they should have the ability to exercise judgement on what interventions they provide and how they provide it? The fundamental question of "How should paramedics think?" is what should drive education. Please note that this should not be constrained to the current demands and limitations in place, but a long term, "where should paramedicine be" goal.

I think paramedic should do whatever is practical to keep person alive while on their way to the hospital. Paramedic do not have equipment in the field to find out what is really wrong with them.All they really can do is keep person comfortable and alive until they can get to the hospital where higher level professional can take over. So while i have no problem with paramedic thinking, the scope of thinking don't have that much room to go up.

 

[systemet]

Paramedic do not have equipment in the field to find out what is really wrong with them.All they really can do is keep person comfortable and alive until they can get to the hospital where higher level professional can take over.

(1) 26 year old female, GCS 3, snoring respirations, profusely diaphoretic HR 140, sinus rhythm w/o ectopy, RR 20, bG 1.0 mmol / dl (18 mg /dl). Bystander says, "she couldn't remember if she took her insulin, so she took it again". What's happening, what should be done?

(2) 40 year old male, ischemic pattern chest pain, ST elevation > 10 mm in V2,V3,V4. What's happening? What should be done?

(3) 60 year old female, headache, unilateral facial droop, drooling, slurring speech, one pupil dilated, contralateral hemiparesis. Likely diagnosis?

(4) 18 year old male, pulseless, apneic in a puddle of blood. Large holes on both side of head. Holding shotgun. What happened?

(5) 80 year old female, hx of UTI, temp 39, a.fib @160, poor skin turgor, dry mucous membranes. What's happening?

For example.

 

[RocketMedic]

Looker, your position is flat-out indefensible. Paramedics can do a lot more than palliative care and transportation. We're not all IFT wheelchair transfer services.

I think EMS is going to be preventative home health care with a healthy sprinkling of 911 calls. This is going to require paramedics learn more and take responsible steps towards improvement.

 

[TatuICU]

This is the main issue. Is it EMS agency job to make sure a person have baseline of education when wanting to work in EMS field? The simple answer is no. Regulations are set up to make sure ems personal/public stay safe. It have nothing to do with mandating that a person get understanding of what education can do for them. That should be personal choice of each person




I think paramedic should do whatever is practical to keep person alive while on their way to the hospital. Paramedic do not have equipment in the field to find out what is really wrong with them.All they really can do is keep person comfortable and alive until they can get to the hospital where higher level professional can take over. So while i have no problem with paramedic thinking, the scope of thinking don't have that much room to go up.

I can't really get on board with this. The biggest piece of equipment that any healthcare professional needs is a brain that critically thinks and has assessment skills.

The only evolutionary direction for Paramedics is the requirement of much higher education (which we should all be pushing for) or we could always stay the same or regress and become extinct.

 

[TatuICU]

However, medicine being a graduate degree is a US/Canadian quirk. In most other countries medicine is an undergraduate degree of varying length (MBBS degree). However we also now need to compare the complete education system as different societies have different education systems completely. The UK education system isn't completely comparable to the US education system.

.

So when can say Indians, Pakistanis, or those going to schools in the Caribbean sit for the USMLE?

 

[medicdan]

I think i've asked this before, but I'll try again. Can we demonstrate better care (improved outcomes, decreased morbidity/mortality) associated with EMTs or Paramedics with Associates Degrees? Bachelors Degrees? Masters? as opposed to those with a HS diploma? Are patients getting better care from college graduated caregivers?

Show me some data! Without it, it's hard to defend education standards...

 

[EFDUnit823]

I am a staunch believer in furthering one’s education, but to what end? I do not see any issue with having a two-tier system Nationwide in EMS, EMT and Paramedic. With that, it would not be unreasonable to expect a two-year (AS) degree for EMT and a four-year (BS) degree for Paramedic. But, what are the current incentives for this? What would motivate individuals to seek going into significant debt when the return is slightly more than if you were to work in the fast food industry?

That aside, we have two things that will not help us progress towards our profession becoming a licensed profession. First, the Nurses Union…this union will intercept and work to defuse any progression for EMS to move in this direction, as they had in Indiana. Second, we do not really have one National non-governmental voice lobbying for our progression or establishing universal standards. We have a given State law that says, “you must meet these requirements”…then, the state’s Department of Homeland Security works on “in-between the line” stuff. Since we are certified through the state DHS, the state DHS dictates who can instruct. This allows for organizations like this (http://www.emtinc.net/) to crank out Basics in two weeks, and Paramedics in three months. If a person can go from not having one iota of an understanding of EMS, then four months later be certified as a Paramedic…how can we ever expect a transition to licensing?

 

[EFDUnit823]

I think i've asked this before, but I'll try again. Can we demonstrate better care (improved outcomes, decreased morbidity/mortality) associated with EMTs or Paramedics with Associates Degrees? Bachelors Degrees? Masters? as opposed to those with a HS diploma? Are patients getting better care from college graduated caregivers?

Show me some data! Without it, it's hard to defend education standards...

I understand what you are saying, and agree what you are getting at. To me, it is not so much about a change in the quality of care as it is in progressing our field towards professional licensure. Why should nursing be paid three to four times the amount our service is paid for?