fell from horse drawn trailer, in motion

trauma1534

Forum Captain
309
3
0
Here is a call that I ran about 2 months ago. tell me what you would do... and what you think is wrong with the patient.

You respond to a call to a gravel road, eta 32 min. from the nearest ER... no trauma center available by ground. The dispatcher says that it is a female thrown from a horse drawn trailer.

Upon arrival, you find a 64 year old female patient lying on the ground. Resp. 34, pulse, 120, B/P 230/118. Upon assessment, there is major bleeding comming from the head, LOC: Awake, confused, does not know her name, etc. Lung sounds: wheezes in left side, rales to the right side. There is a Paramedic on the scene who is telling you that everything is ok, just keep bleeding under control and apply copious amounts of diesal fuel and get to the ER. He refuses to ride in. You fully trauma package the patient, apply 15lpm 02, NRB. You get in the back of the truck, you only have 1 BLS provider to assist you. As you head up the road, you notice that your patient is becoming combative, heart rate is now 150, ST on the monitor, you cannot get an IV established due to crappy veins, respirations are now climbing to 44, you have deminished breath sounds on the right side. You are calling for additional ALS with no response enroute. Your partner exposes the patient and it appears that you have bilateral deformities to the lower legs, there are lacerations throughout the upper and lower extrimities. You still have 15 min. eta. You try to call the hospital, no one answers the radio. You try to call by call phone, you get put on hold. No one ever anwers that you need to talk to. You are now bagging your patient, and she is combative, not tolorating. She is 66 breaths a min, and you now have no breath sounds to the right side. Still no IV access and you cannot do an EJ without direct orders. You still have ST on the monitor... what would you do? After a few of you take a shot at this, I will tell you the rest of the story. :blink:
 

Chimpie

Site Administrator
Community Leader
6,368
812
113
First, take off the O2, switched to Nitrous, puff puff give for yourself, hand off to the Basic, puff puff give, then give to the patient. :p

But seriously, why weren't the legs checked on scene?

Was Life-flight (or what ever you call it) available?

Chimp
 

CaptainPanic

Former EMT...
560
0
0
ok heres my stab at this, Im open for critique.

1.) I would suspect a collapsed lung if Im getting no breath sounds on one side, time to haul ***!

2.) Due to the respiratory situation, Im not going to worry about the legs unless there is large amounts of blood loss (femoral) or if the femur bone is Fx, which can compromise the femoral artery.

3.) If ALS decides to be complete asses, Im going call for a helo.

4.) then report to my superiors that ALS was needed for this call and ALS failed to respond.

-CP
 

Jon

Administrator
Community Leader
8,009
58
48
Step 1a - Call for a direct fly of a bird, if it can be done much faster than you can be in the ED.

Step 1b - Run like hell to the ED.

Step 3c - call the county / comm center over the radio, tell them to call the hospital and notify that you are bringing a combative level 1 trauma to them with respitory comprimise.

Step 2 - oral or nasal airway if tolerated.

Step 3a - restrain the patient

Step 3b - consider "Modified" oxygen therapy

Step 4 - do the best you can.... try to get a line, and prepare to work this guy when he codes.

I think you've got a FUBAR trauma patient here, with a pnumothorax, probably a tension pnumothorax, and maybe a hemo/pnumo....

the legs are fubar - B/L tib-fib's.

This guy will code if the airway isn't controlled, quick

jon
 

ma2va92

Forum Lieutenant
186
1
0
Originally posted by trauma1534@Oct 11 2005, 11:41 PM
Here is a call that I ran about 2 months ago. tell me what you would do... and what you think is wrong with the patient.

You respond to a call to a gravel road, eta 32 min. from the nearest ER... no trauma center available by ground. The dispatcher says that it is a female thrown from a horse drawn trailer.

Upon arrival, you find a 64 year old female patient lying on the ground. Resp. 34, pulse, 120, B/P 230/118. Upon assessment, there is major bleeding comming from the head, LOC: Awake, confused, does not know her name, etc. Lung sounds: wheezes in left side, rales to the right side. There is a Paramedic on the scene who is telling you that everything is ok, just keep bleeding under control and apply copious amounts of diesal fuel and get to the ER. He refuses to ride in. You fully trauma package the patient, apply 15lpm 02, NRB. You get in the back of the truck, you only have 1 BLS provider to assist you. As you head up the road, you notice that your patient is becoming combative, heart rate is now 150, ST on the monitor, you cannot get an IV established due to crappy veins, respirations are now climbing to 44, you have deminished breath sounds on the right side. You are calling for additional ALS with no response enroute. Your partner exposes the patient and it appears that you have bilateral deformities to the lower legs, there are lacerations throughout the upper and lower extrimities. You still have 15 min. eta. You try to call the hospital, no one answers the radio. You try to call by call phone, you get put on hold. No one ever anwers that you need to talk to. You are now bagging your patient, and she is combative, not tolorating. She is 66 breaths a min, and you now have no breath sounds to the right side. Still no IV access and you cannot do an EJ without direct orders. You still have ST on the monitor... what would you do? After a few of you take a shot at this, I will tell you the rest of the story. :blink:
First thing when a call like that has been dispatched, because of the mechanism of injury I would ask dispatch to check and see if a bird is available.
Reading , what you did , make sure the airway is maintained either oral or nasal with a respiratory rate increasing bagging the patient was your best choice unless you are cleared for intubation.
Advanced life-support in a rural area may be too far out to assist you therefore , the bird is very important.
Keep the bleeding under control .
notify dispatch to call the emergency room or the emergency department . we must be politically correct , and let them know what you're coming in with.
After patient care and report has been transferred a full written report would be given to the emergency room director to the OMD to the director of EMS for your area , explaining that a paramedic at the scene of the accident refused to continue care for the patient . therefore , resulting in patient abandonment.
That person should be hanging from their left one tied in a guitar string.
Otherwise , it would seem that you did all that you were capable of doing with the crew that you had, and when the case goes to court , make sure you have a very detailed prehospital care report in your hands.
 

TTLWHKR

Forum Deputy Chief
3,142
5
0
I was born in a town that was 72 miles to the inch from any hospital, except an 80 y.o doctor who used his garage as an urgent care center. We had available a forest service helo, and a fixed wing ambulance.

I would have flown the patient...

Apply the MAST, for bilateral fractures of the lower legs, don't inflate the abdomen.

Can't find a vein, then search for one... rub some lido jelly on the forearm, and fish for a vein. 1000 of RL. Give nitro for hypertension, possibly some valium to clam her, so as not to exacerbate her injuries. Immobilize her w/ her arms under the straps, so she cannot flail around. She's breathing too fast, control it, put in an NPA and bag her. If she won't allow the NPS, use lido jelly instead of KY, etc. This will make it less obvious for the patient.

Of course I would have just did a subclavian line, snowed the patient, intubated her, put the MAST on for leg fractures to save time on splinting, and called for a Medevac chopper to meet me somewhere in between.
 

BloodNGlory02

Forum Crew Member
99
1
0
Step 2 - oral or nasal airway if tolerated.

You would use a nasal on this patient?! You dont suspect a head injury on this pt???? I sure do and thats the first contraindication of a nasal airway!!

Give nitro for hypertension, possibly some valium to clam her, so as not to exacerbate her injuries.

again... head injury patient! NTG = BAD.
 

Margaritaville

Forum Lieutenant
154
0
0
Was the ALS provider on this call from the lower end of the gene pool?

Everything about this call is ALS - even the mechanism!!!

He should have taken the call in or had a helicopter transport. I would be very tempted to burn the paramedics a** for this one!
 

TTLWHKR

Forum Deputy Chief
3,142
5
0
Well, she was just bleeding from the head... There is a difference between a Head Injury, and an injury to the head...

for instance.. I'm in the barn today, putting up shelves, I stand up and cut my forehead on a nail... Do I have a head injury or an injury to the head?
I used one of my bacon bandaids... My wife made me take it off and use a steri-strip instead. I swear, sometimes she is an equal to my grandmother. :rolleyes:


Nasal airway... I didn't read the whole post.. I was seeing bleeding from the head. as long as there are no facial fractures, it isn't going to hurt the patient *told to me by a Trauma Surgeon while I was in paramedic school.

I wouldn't have used one, I'd have intubated her. But in a basic ambulance, you aren't going to put in an oral airway b/c she's conscious.

Ntg... Maybe a bad choice... I didn't read his whole post.. But that is how we lower the BP.

Maybe a TIA?

I could answer this better if I knew what he had to work with, i.e. is he a basic, an Inter or a Medic?
 
OP
OP
T

trauma1534

Forum Captain
309
3
0
In responce to the bilateral tib/fib, and why it was not addressed at the scene, AIRWAY AIRWAY AIRWAY, plus she was trauma packaged on a LSB. The legs were the lease of my worries. PMS was intact, so I was focused on airway issue. As far as a nasal airway, that is a no no in our area for possible head injuries. As for the Bird, one gave a 40 min. eta, the other could not fly due to weather conditions. So that was out. I could not give valume with out a second person on the truck who could intubate. I tried to intubate, she fought it. I did get a vein, however she faught so much that she pulled it. It was the call from hell! Really! No way to contact ER, we latter found out that someone had turned thier HEAR radio down, the did not hear us calling or any other units comming in for that matter. They had a new secretary, first day on her own, she put me on hold and never transfered me to the nurses. This happened 2 times enroute. Her veins were crappy! The one that I did get was in the L AC. She had nothing else to work with, except for EJ and again, I can't do this without orders. By the time the bird cold get there, I was at the ER. I could not justify. I am ALS, my partner was BLS, so we were screwed. The Paramedic at the scene even suggested that we run it BLS!!! As soon as we got to the ER, they got respitory right away and RSI'ed her. She flew out an hour latter. She did have a pneumathorax, a head injury and bilateral tib/fib fx.

I have gotten an update on her. She came home about a week ago. She remembers nothing about the accident and has perminent short term memory loss. She walks with a walker and is doing as well as can be expected. I just thought it would be nice to get other providers input on what they would have done in my situation. A medic at my squad said that I should have acted as if I had the orders and went on with treatment and delt with it latter. I was just following protocol.
 

Margaritaville

Forum Lieutenant
154
0
0
Trauma1534,

I read your post a little too quickly. Your an intermediate. Sorry, thought you were BLS.

Yeah, your paramedic should have given you a hand. 2 hands are better than one, especially on these types of calls. As for it being BLS - still a stupid suggestion. And please tell him I said so. He is just being lazy and didn't want to take the call.

Do me a favor, don't second guess yourself. This is one of those coulda, shoulda, woulda calls. Would it have changed the outcome - probably not. You did what you could. You did a good job! Sometimes calls just don't fit the book (or the patients).

Be proud of the job you did! Now, you have reviewed it, learned from it, time to turn the page!

Keep up the good work!
 

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
11,031
1,478
113
We actually have the following written into our protocols,

If all reasonable attempts to contact a physician have been unsuccessful, and failure to perform a procedure requiring a verbal order could adversely impact the patient's final outcome, such a procedure may be performed as a standing order. The reason for not making contact must be documented on the medical incident report.

I haven't had to use this clause yet, and hope I never have to.
 

rescuecpt

Community Leader Emeritus
2,088
1
0
Yeah, we have the "total communications failure" clause in NY too. You can do everything in your standing and medical control option orders except narcs (well, unless they're seizing, then you can give diazepam).

Did you D-stick her? Do you have any info about how/why she fell from bystanders? Did she get dizzy and swoon, or did they hit a hard bump?

Are you allowed to decompress a collapsed lung in your area?
 

rescuecpt

Community Leader Emeritus
2,088
1
0
Originally posted by trauma1534@Oct 11 2005, 11:41 PM
There is a Paramedic on the scene who is telling you that everything is ok, just keep bleeding under control and apply copious amounts of diesal fuel and get to the ER. He refuses to ride in.

You still have ST on the monitor... what would you do?
I dunno about your area, but in my area, if a basic or I wants a medic to ride with because they're kinda leery about the call - and he doesn't ride, that's considered abandonment. If you saw the call as potentially out of your scope, you should have insisted they ride with you, both to help you, and to CYA.


PS - how tachy is the ST, and does it maintain itself or fluctuate?
 

Wingnut

EMS Junkie
2,027
0
0
Originally posted by TTLWHKR@Oct 12 2005, 06:02 PM

I used one of my bacon bandaids... My wife made me take it off and use a steri-strip instead.
I know this is a serious post but this made me laugh :lol: :lol:


Reading this call from a BLS standpoint...freaking nightmare. Are you a medic or Intermediate? If Intermediate I would seriously consider nailing that medic for pt abandonment and neglect. He obviously didn't do a rapid trauma exam and just passed her off on you. I'm sorry youhad to go through this type of call, but on the bright side it's one hell of a learning experience.
 

Jon

Administrator
Community Leader
8,009
58
48
Originally posted by BloodNGlory02@Oct 12 2005, 05:31 PM
Step 2 - oral or nasal airway if tolerated.

You would use a nasal on this patient?! You dont suspect a head injury on this pt???? I sure do and thats the first contraindication of a nasal airway!!

Give nitro for hypertension, possibly some valium to clam her, so as not to exacerbate her injuries.

again... head injury patient! NTG = BAD.
While a nasal airway isn't a stellar idea because of the possible head injury..... I would still consider using one if I was unable to use an oral airway because the patient wouldn't tolerate it.... this patient NEEDS an airway.... they are CTD and WILL DIE if they don't have some ballsy airway management done yesterday.... get some form of airway adjunct in and ventilate with 100% O2....

Jon
 

medic03

Forum Lieutenant
125
0
0
Originally posted by TTLWHKR@Oct 12 2005, 03:47 PM
Give nitro for hypertension.......
Do any of you do this? Where I was taught and work, we don't use drugs for their side effects to help us like this. Giving NTG prehospital is for cardiac events, not for increasing BP associated with head injury. Because I work on a helicopter and a critical care rig, I have a few meds that some may not carry for hypertensive events plus a nice bag of meds to snow and paralyze this pt. Will the BP drop from the NTG.... sure, but I'm not sure this is the best way of doing it. Just my 2 cents..... anyone else have a comment about this?
 

TTLWHKR

Forum Deputy Chief
3,142
5
0
Originally posted by medic03+Oct 14 2005, 08:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (medic03 @ Oct 14 2005, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TTLWHKR@Oct 12 2005, 03:47 PM
Give nitro for hypertension.......
Do any of you do this? Where I was taught and work, we don't use drugs for their side effects to help us like this. Giving NTG prehospital is for cardiac events, not for increasing BP associated with head injury. Because I work on a helicopter and a critical care rig, I have a few meds that some may not carry for hypertensive events plus a nice bag of meds to snow and paralyze this pt. Will the BP drop from the NTG.... sure, but I'm not sure this is the best way of doing it. Just my 2 cents..... anyone else have a comment about this? [/b][/quote]
I have a comment...

"Follow your protocols".

That was my OMC protocol. Nitrostat for hypertension. Approved and used, fifty-two miles from any ER, three hours from a regional trauma center.

associated with head injury.

I didn't read his post.. I was just treating the hypertension.. He had no medic, therefore, a medevac would have been the best way to go. As a basic, they would immobilize, give O2 and transport.. With the vitals, they -should- think about assisting w/ resps, 44 is too fast..

Even as a medic, I'd have chosen to fly the patient b/c a trauma center is better than any misc. ER by ground.
 
OP
OP
T

trauma1534

Forum Captain
309
3
0
Thank you all for your input on this call. I hope none of you have to go through this. My head was pounding after it was over. I feel we did the best we could with what we had to work with.
 
Top