Dont get caught up in the degree hype

[platon20]

There's a lot of threads on this forum about how basic EMTs need bachelors degrees, paramedics need masters degrees, etc

Going down the degree pathway is fool's gold.

Consider the case of physicians. By any standard they have by far the most formal training. Over 10,000 hours of clinical training just to be a basic primary care provider.

In spite of those 10,000 hours of training, they are getting their lunch eaten by PAs and NPs with less than 1/4 that training.

The same thing will happen to EMT/parameds if you go down the same pathway. You might have a fancy degree behind your name, but the market will undercut you with a cheaper provider who can do the same thing you can for much less educational cost.

If you go the degree route, you will inevitably give up control of the educational pathway to academic PhDs who have never practiced as a first responder. I'm talking about them forcing you to take BS classes on ethics, healthcare policy, cultural competency, and other crap that has nothing to d with your job in the ambulance.

 

[PotatoMedic]

And a NP is limited in what they can do and an PA requires an MD to be able to work since the MD must ok what they do.

And you are one of the many reasons EMS will stay as the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: child of our healthcare system.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Someone arguing against the progression of EMS? That's odd. The only thing that could make this even better is if you are a fire medic :rofl:

 

[Medic Tim]

troll.....


Tor is that you?

 

[Akulahawk]

Nurse Practitioners are limited in what they're allowed to do. They must follow "standardized procedures" for doing what they do. PA's can (as in "may") have a fairly wide scope of practice, but it's basically up to their supervising physician as to what they're allowed to do.

By your logic, platon20, since a provider with 1/4 of the training of a physician can eat their lunch, I would imagine that a provider with less than 1/8th of a physician's training would be able to have that physician's breakfast, lunch, dinner, and coffee too...

You know, it's kind of interesting... Nursing requires a degree for entry into the profession. So does Occupational Therapy, Physical Therapy, Speech & Language Pathology, and so on. They all make more money than most non-Fire Paramedics. It wasn't all that long ago that Nurses couldn't do many of the things they do now... yet with additional education, they learned and expanded their scope of practice. Imagine what a bunch of well-educated Paramedics (with degrees as proof of said education) can do, knowing their MacGyvering spirit!

 

[Medic817]

I second Akulahawk's statement. We're moving forward as a profession. Unless you're unwilling to advance you'll get left behind.

 

[TransportJockey]

I second Akulahawk's statement. We're moving forward as a profession. Unless you're unwilling to advance you'll get left behind.

This. For the love of god. This.

No one is advocating that paramedics have masters level degrees. But there are some of is here, myself included, that believe to practice in this field should require at least an Associates degree. Similar to a nurse. Or better yet something like the Aussie or Kiwi systems.

We are not a profession. We are a vocation. We have technicians, not clinicians. That has to change.

 

[Medic817]

This. For the love of god. This.

No one is advocating that paramedics have masters level degrees. But there are some of is here, myself included, that believe to practice in this field should require at least an Associates degree. Similar to a nurse. Or better yet something like the Aussie or Kiwi systems.

We are not a profession. We are a vocation. We have technicians, not clinicians. That has to change.

Oh man TransportJockey you just repeated basically what my supervisor said today! He basically said they want to make us better clinicians than technicians. We can do so much. Unless as a profession people aim higher we won't have change but the service I just started with is pushing for it.

Our medical director isn't just some podiatrist god knows where, he's a former paramedic of the service even has us go through an oral review (like physician oral boards) before approving us to become In-Charge Paramedics. He does it to get to know us and pushes us to become more educated in order to provide a higher level of care to our community.

 

[mycrofft]

:nosoupfortroll:

 

[mycrofft]

On the other hand, I recognize that a degree is not the carte-blanche to one's eventual profession, career, or string of dead end jobs.
My son has bachelor's (two years on Deans' list) and works in an unrelated and largely physical job he's held for ten years. My daughter has one and works beaucoup vollie hrs with animals and may morph it into a teaching credential, but again, not in her BA's field.

I once read something like 68% of college grads work in fields apparently unrelated to their degrees.

So, if you are getting that degree, consider if for time and money are being well-spent for a lifetime and not a young person's fantasy. If you still want it, consider the cross-usefulness of individual class credits…and how long they last 'til you have to take them again for a different major.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I still don't understand why people are so scared of even an AAS, its cheap and most medics only need 1 o 2 semesters more to complete it. Blows my mind.

 

[Medic Tim]

I still don't understand why people are so scared of even an AAS, its cheap and most medics only need 1 o 2 semesters more to complete it. Blows my mind.

Agreed.

Not just the education though . Self regulation along with the higher education is what we should strive for.....BECOME A TRUE PROFESSION .... I have seen first hand what this can do to EMS ( I am in Canada ) and the level of care and professionalism has gone through the roof.

 

[Medic817]

On the other hand, I recognize that a degree is not the carte-blanche to one's eventual profession, career, or string of dead end jobs.
My son has bachelor's (two years on Deans' list) and works in an unrelated and largely physical job he's held for ten years. My daughter has one and works beaucoup vollie hrs with animals and may morph it into a teaching credential, but again, not in her BA's field.

I once read something like 68% of college grads work in fields apparently unrelated to their degrees.

So, if you are getting that degree, consider if for time and money are being well-spent for a lifetime and not a young person's fantasy. If you still want it, consider the cross-usefulness of individual class credits…and how long they last 'til you have to take them again for a different major.

I absolutely agree but I'm not talking about getting a degree other than in our profession. That's why it's a professional degree. To be a nurse you don't go get a degree to be a paramedic.

I still don't understand why people are so scared of even an AAS, its cheap and most medics only need 1 o 2 semesters more to complete it. Blows my mind.

Some are even integrated to take the classes while taking medic classes. I'm glad I'll have the AAS degree and work for a service that is pushing for advancement.

 

[mycrofft]

I absolutely agree but I'm not talking about getting a degree other than in our profession. That's why it's a professional degree. To be a nurse you don't go get a degree to be a paramedic.



Some are even integrated to take the classes while taking medic classes. I'm glad I'll have the AAS degree and work for a service that is pushing for advancement.

Some poor souls DO try to "stair step" up some imaginary ladder in medicine. We keep telling them "GO for it!" or "Use EMT to finance your RN, MD etc".

Salute to you for the degree!!

I mention other fields because prehospital EMS is not the best paying job, and your work there is to a greater or lesser extent upon your ability to sit and drive for long periods per day, lift and transfer patients. As a "well rounded person" and not a fan(atic), you need to look down your road a little as well as take a look around you and see what is happening with your co-workers through the years.

 

[Carlos Danger]

I agree with the OP that education is not necessarily all it's cracked up to be. College has gotten ridiculously expensive and as mycrofft pointed out, a very large percentage of people with 4-year degrees can't even find work in their fields, and many people end up having a hard time paying off their student loans. The old attitude that "more education is ALWAYS worth the investment" simply isn't true anymore (if it ever was). The relative value of a formal education is a lot less than it used to be.

However, that is very different than the issues we are facing in EMS. Educational standards in EMS are too low, period. There is a pretty strong and well-reasoned consensus that paramedics don't have nearly as much education as we should, considering the autonomy we have and the critical / invasive stuff we do. Most healthcare professionals have less autonomy and do NO invasive skills, yet are still required to have far more education than we are. Beyond the clinical aspects, many paramedics lack the basic skills in writing, communication, and interpreting research that are absolutely mandatory for the advancement of a profession. Historically, paramedics have dismissed that stuff as unimportant, yet it is exactly why every other healthcare profession has left us in dust. It is a much bigger deal than the clinical side, in terms of advancing the profession.

The analogy between paramedics and MD's/DO's vis-a-vis their "problem" of PA's and NP's is apples and oranges. That is an issue of supply:demand and not one of education. FP and hospitalist docs are not losing their jobs to PA's and NP's. That issue is not relevant at all to paramedicine.

I think requiring an AAS is an excellent start, and it should be easy to do. Programs should require 2-semester A&P, pharmacology, physiology, and pathophysiology, as well as research, communication, etc. There is no other clinical profession that doesn't require this stuff. It would work. Paramedics would be clinically smarter and also better able to communicate and integrate into the greater healthcare industry.

 

[medicsb]

In spite of those 10,000 hours of training, they are getting their lunch eaten by PAs and NPs with less than 1/4 that training.

No, they're not.

If you go the degree route, you will inevitably give up control of the educational pathway to academic PhDs who have never practiced as a first responder.

Not likely.

I'm talking about them forcing you to take BS classes on ethics, healthcare policy, cultural competency, and other crap that has nothing to d with your job in the ambulance.

Ethics and cultural competency has nothing do with EMS? :wacko:

 

[FLdoc2011]

The analogy between paramedics and MD's/DO's vis-a-vis their "problem" of PA's and NP's is apples and oranges. That is an issue of supply:demand and not one of education. FP and hospitalist docs are not losing their jobs to PA's and NP's. That issue is not relevant at all to paramedicine.

This.

I was never a medic but as someone in the healthcare arena looking at your field from the outside, if you to continue to advance your field/profession then some of the above suggestions regarding advanced degrees (doesn't have to be masters or even 4yr bachelors) I think is applicable. At least some sort of standardized foundation with maybe a larger clinical component.

For physicians, after 4 years of medical school at the post graduate level, we still have to complete some sort of additional residency training (which is at least another. 3 years for fields like ER, FP, IM and even more for surgery, anesthesia, cardio, etc...). Doing residency alone there's probably over 10,000 hours of training/study not including med school. But honestly residency is really where we learn the "art". I could see some sort of similar combination if pre-clinical and clinical education foundation being helpful for paramedicine as well.

 

[mycrofft]

I did not mean to sound like education is wasted. Just decide what your life course will be then commit. After screwing around in college for three years, I had to take a seven year hiatus through a factory job, marriage, unemployment, the USAF and prehospital EMS before I found myself committed to nursing college and nursing. No way to back out or divert without throwing out my life. THEN I was ready to go to school and force my way through.

I'm saying degree-prepared prehospital EMS workers like EMT's are great, but don't stop there. If you can, go for something you can do the rest of your life; not just until you rupture a disc.

 

[platon20]

LMAO do you HONESTLY think that the academics that control a degree pathway for EMT/paramedics are going to stop with an AAS?

I dont think an AAS is bad. Problem is that 10 years down the line it will turn from AAS into B.S. Ten years after that it will turn from B.S. into M.S. Ten years after that it will turn from M.S. into doctorate degree.

And who gains from this the most? It's not the EMTs/paramedics who will get saddled with tens of thousands in extra debt for very poor return on MEANINGFUL CLINICAL SKILLS. It will the colleges/academics who laugh all the way to the bank that they were able to dupe gullible people into getting education that provides a very poor return on investment.

We need REAL education, and that means CLINICAL TRAINING, NOT ACADEMIC B.S. DEGREES. We need vocational apprenticeship type programs where hours in an ambulance are prioritized over meaningless time in a classroom.

Ask any M.D. what they remember about organic chemistry or biochemistry and they will laugh in your face.

 

[Wheel]

LMAO do you HONESTLY think that the academics that control a degree pathway for EMT/paramedics are going to stop with an AAS?

I dont think an AAS is bad. Problem is that 10 years down the line it will turn from AAS into B.S. Ten years after that it will turn from B.S. into M.S. Ten years after that it will turn from M.S. into doctorate degree.

And who gains from this the most? It's not the EMTs/paramedics who will get saddled with tens of thousands in extra debt for very poor return on MEANINGFUL CLINICAL SKILLS. It will the colleges/academics who laugh all the way to the bank that they were able to dupe gullible people into getting education that provides a very poor return on investment.

We need REAL education, and that means CLINICAL TRAINING, NOT ACADEMIC B.S. DEGREES. We need vocational apprenticeship type programs where hours in an ambulance are prioritized over meaningless time in a classroom.

Ask any M.D. what they remember about organic chemistry or biochemistry and they will laugh in your face.

Time spent in a classroom isn't meaningless. What do you think lays the foundation for all medical research, progress, and treatment?