Another U.S. Paramedic with Australia questions

[ExpatMedic0]

Hey guys,

I read a lot of the other post that the other U.S. paramedic posted. I wanted to start my own instead of thread hijacking. I am a NREMT-P here in the states looking at relocating to Australia. I live in Oregon. I have found out our paramedic training dosent seem to be as long as Australia or the U.K. but our scope of practice is about the same. I found this link very helpfull http://www.paramedic-resource-centre.com/overseas/australia1.htm

Anyway let me get to the point for those of you who live in Australia, I hope you can shed some light on a lot of things for me.

My education includes, EMT-B at community college ( 4 months of community college vocational training about 150 hours) EMT-Intermediate (an extra 4 months of community college vocational training about 120 hours) Paramedic (16 months of community college 510 hours of classroom skills/lab training, 300 hours of clinical rotations and 700 hours of field internship experience Also college courses Anatomy & Physiology 1 and biology 101 before entering the program.) in addition to this I hold PHTLS, ACLS, PALS, AMLS, and GEMS certifications, all worth 40 hours a piece but really only 2 days of training each.

My scope of practice seems to be almost exactly the same as the ICP medic but the ICP medic has more education than I. I have been talking with theese guys by email and am completing all there papper work http://www.ambulance.nsw.gov.au/docs/recruitment/intl_applicants.pdf

questions.
#1 Do you think I will atleast transfer over as a Paramedic?
#2 Do you think I will have the ability to obtain ICP medic in less than a year or work under the supervision of a trainer as an ICP within 6 months?
#3 any tips or advise or extra information that maybe helpfull?

Regards,
Mike

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Oh I should Add my current scope of practice can be found here. I am the P line on the far right.

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/ems/certific/scope.shtml

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Wow, your post/question is so much clearer and better thought out than mine was!

I'm very interested in doing this too (I was the one who started the other thread). From what I understand the best thing to do would be to go back to school and get your degree. It would be preferable to find a college/uni that offers a degree in EMS which is what I'm doing. A list of institutions that offer such degrees can be found here.

I also found those links and forms that you've referred to which are quite helpful. So, like I said I think the best thing to do is get your B.S. You work in Oregon too, which has an awesome scope so that should help you out as well.

 

[SA_Medic]

Knowing a few South African Paramedics and National Diploma Paramedic (4 year Univ Diploma) that's gone across I can tell you this much.

None of them went there as Paramedics. All of them had to drop down to EMT-I and redo the Aussie version of Paramedic. I have been looking into doing this as well but not sure I want to drop down to ILS again

 

[downunderwunda]

Hey guys,

I read a lot of the other post that the other U.S. paramedic posted. I wanted to start my own instead of thread hijacking. I am a NREMT-P here in the states looking at relocating to Australia. I live in Oregon. I have found out our paramedic training dosent seem to be as long as Australia or the U.K. but our scope of practice is about the same. I found this link very helpfull http://www.paramedic-resource-centre.com/overseas/australia1.htm

Anyway let me get to the point for those of you who live in Australia, I hope you can shed some light on a lot of things for me.

My education includes, EMT-B at community college ( 4 months of community college vocational training about 150 hours) EMT-Intermediate (an extra 4 months of community college vocational training about 120 hours) Paramedic (16 months of community college 510 hours of classroom skills/lab training, 300 hours of clinical rotations and 700 hours of field internship experience Also college courses Anatomy & Physiology 1 and biology 101 before entering the program.) in addition to this I hold PHTLS, ACLS, PALS, AMLS, and GEMS certifications, all worth 40 hours a piece but really only 2 days of training each.

My scope of practice seems to be almost exactly the same as the ICP medic but the ICP medic has more education than I. I have been talking with theese guys by email and am completing all there papper work http://www.ambulance.nsw.gov.au/docs/recruitment/intl_applicants.pdf

questions.
#1 Do you think I will atleast transfer over as a Paramedic?
#2 Do you think I will have the ability to obtain ICP medic in less than a year or work under the supervision of a trainer as an ICP within 6 months?
#3 any tips or advise or extra information that maybe helpfull?

Regards,
Mike

Mike,

I work for ASNSW.

The biggest problem is that the education levels are so different. Our system is very close to the UK model & I Know they offer reciprocacy for them. However, as there is such a difference between education facilityies in the US, they are looking at each case on an individual basis, in some cases including texting to see the levels of knowledge, and ridalongs with senior paramedics to see what skills are there. This is no gaurentee you will be able to transfer as an Intensive Care Paramedic (we are all paramedics here).

If you are not assessed as competent, then you may receive some recognition of prior learning & be able to reduce the course length, but if you have to apply to enter the ICP program, that is your 4th year of service.

#3 any tips or advise or extra information that maybe helpfull?

Dont be arrogant. Looking at your experience, I cant see where you have actually worked in the field, other than

300 hours of clinical rotations and 700 hours of field internship experience

. This will count against you. I wouldnt be in too big a rush to go ICP here, learn that all aussies will take the piss outta you & you need to get through that first. You will also need to be prepared to 'go bush'. There is no gaurentee that you will be in a desireable location in the first instance.

Any other questions, PM me & I will try to answer them for you

 

[triemal04]

It may be here (again, I'm very lazy right now), but is there any Australian site that lists the various levels and educational requirements? Idle curiosity only.

 

[downunderwunda]

It may be here (again, I'm very lazy right now), but is there any Australian site that lists the various levels and educational requirements? Idle curiosity only.

This will be the closest you will get. The American model they will not complete as there is too much disparity in qualifications & experience.

http://www.ambulance.qld.gov.au/recruitment/pdf/EOQ_Matrix_March_2004.pdf

 

[triemal04]

Thanks, that helps. If you've got the time, what I was wondering about is what each of those degrees requires, and what the scope is for the levels.

 

[downunderwunda]

Thanks, that helps. If you've got the time, what I was wondering about is what each of those degrees requires, and what the scope is for the levels.

Hmmm, no i dont have time, that would take hours. I would suggest you look at some of our university sites etc & you will get a fair idea.

 

[triemal04]

Hmmm, no i dont have time, that would take hours. I would suggest you look at some of our university sites etc & you will get a fair idea.

Gracias.

 

[Melclin]

My education includes, EMT-B at community college ( 4 months of community college vocational training about 150 hours) EMT-Intermediate (an extra 4 months of community college vocational training about 120 hours) Paramedic (16 months of community college 510 hours of classroom skills/lab training, 300 hours of clinical rotations and 700 hours of field internship experience Also college courses Anatomy & Physiology 1 and biology 101 before entering the program.) in addition to this I hold PHTLS, ACLS, PALS, AMLS, and GEMS certifications, all worth 40 hours a piece but really only 2 days of training each.

questions.
#1 Do you think I will atleast transfer over as a Paramedic?
#2 Do you think I will have the ability to obtain ICP medic in less than a year or work under the supervision of a trainer as an ICP within 6 months?
#3 any tips or advise or extra information that maybe helpfull?

Sorry I came late to the party.

A few links for the degree courses that I'm am aware of and could discuss should you want too.

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/beh/ (I'm currently completing it)

http://wcf.vu.edu.au/Handbook/index.cfm?Search_Courses=Search_Courses&CourseID=6301 (while this one and the Monash course look similar, they are very different, and I'd be happy to discuss the numerous differences)

http://www.csu.edu.au/courses/undergraduate/paramedic/ (the only non, Victorian paramedic program I know much about. The head of the faculty there is a leading professor of paramedic practice and they have excellent simulation facilities I've heard.)

I'd be happy to ask around at uni about the real deal regarding any of the programs you have in mind. Their website polava is largely BS, as is true of anyone advertising themselves.

There's a book I'd recommend regarding the history, state and future of paramedic practice in Australia, co-written by just about every paramedical academic in Australia. The name escapes me now, but I certainly recommend asking me to track the name down if you are actually serious about coming out here.

Q.1) Possibly. I would imagine you would apply for employment like any other grad student, and they would assess you similarly too new grads from the uni courses I imagine. There may be some room to gain employment and then learn from a Clinical Instructor on the road, but as I said in the other thread, the yank approach is very different to the Australian approach. You will need to show proficiency in the Australian approach. You will also have to have a much better understanding of the whys and the hows, than your American programs afford you. We do not have online medical control and we are not terribly far away from being licensed to prescribe under our own authority (separate from employment with an ambulance service).

Q.2) No. Or at least, you shouldn't. This is not a judgment of your abilities, but you simply do not have the education to be administering treatments on your own authority, by our standards. To be perfectly honest, if they did take you on in any capacity as an ICP, it would be because they are so desperate for ICPs in many parts of Australia.

Q.3) My thoughts: I have met a few very poor AP's (see the other thread for levels of practice) even in my short time on the road, who clearly don't know their arses from their stethoscopes. I don't doubt, after having experienced ALS practice (and clearly seeing that you are on this forum, you have some interest in bettering yourself), you would make an excellent AP (better than a lot), and maybe even a good MICA/ICP medic. However, your individual qualities aside, the American approach/ethos is of great concern to Australian paramedics and you will not be looked upon favourably, because of your country's approach to EMS. You're lack of education could, or rather, should be of concern to the employment panels. It does, however, depend on the current climate of the Ambulance service you are applying for. Services are doing a great many things they should not be doing at the moment, in the name of politics and numbers <_<. In general, get more education... and I don't mean more 'certs'. This whole business of ACLS, PALS, WANK...It doesn't mean anything to us. If you understand your business properly, then you don't need to go taking short courses and memorizing robotic algorithms.

The take home message: I'm sure the services will tell you all you need to know if you contact them. If you are interested in Victoria specifically, I'd be happy to chase down some answers at uni.

 

[MrBrown]

You may wish to look at New Zealand and if so, heres a quick two cents:

1. You will probably be put on the road for a number of shifts (around 20) and have to fill in case logs and undertake practical/vica-voce assessments to demonstrate competency at our basic life support level (which is quite different from your BLS level) without having to rely on online medical control and then employed at BLS level.

2. From there you will move up to Paramedic (intermediate life support) at a pace determined by your performance and how fast the service wants to move you up. Anywhere from a year to 18 months at BLS level is not uncommon before you can apply to move up but yours could be shorter but I'd be suprised if you do it within less than 12 months.

3. Intensive Care Paramedic (advanced life support) will require you to go back to school and get the Bachelor of Health Science (Paramedic). This will take you anywhere from 12-24 months.

The Auckland metropolitan service is pretty short of ICPs (but there is generally one lurking somewhere when you need them it seems most of the time) so you might be able to use that to your advantage.

Like Australia we are moving towards a very flat system of only a few levels and we are seriously looking at registering those levels as indepndant health practitioners who can prescribe drugs and operate within a scope of practice without needing a standing order.

If you have the capability to find a reputable Bachelors Degree program in EMS then I suggest going for that if you want to come to this part of the world. All your ACLS & PALS & ITLS stuff doesn't mean anything here so the more proper education you get the better.

Brown away! h34r:

 

[downunderwunda]

You may wish to look at New Zealand and if so, heres a quick two cents:

1. You will probably be put on the road for a number of shifts (around 20) and have to fill in case logs and undertake practical/vica-voce assessments to demonstrate competency at our basic life support level (which is quite different from your BLS level) without having to rely on online medical control and then employed at BLS level.

2. From there you will move up to Paramedic (intermediate life support) at a pace determined by your performance and how fast the service wants to move you up. Anywhere from a year to 18 months at BLS level is not uncommon before you can apply to move up but yours could be shorter but I'd be suprised if you do it within less than 12 months.

3. Intensive Care Paramedic (advanced life support) will require you to go back to school and get the Bachelor of Health Science (Paramedic). This will take you anywhere from 12-24 months.

The Auckland metropolitan service is pretty short of ICPs (but there is generally one lurking somewhere when you need them it seems most of the time) so you might be able to use that to your advantage.

Like Australia we are moving towards a very flat system of only a few levels and we are seriously looking at registering those levels as indepndant health practitioners who can prescribe drugs and operate within a scope of practice without needing a standing order.

If you have the capability to find a reputable Bachelors Degree program in EMS then I suggest going for that if you want to come to this part of the world. All your ACLS & PALS & ITLS stuff doesn't mean anything here so the more proper education you get the better.

Brown away! h34r:

but it is New Zealand, thats like stepping back in time to the 1940's

 

[High Speed Chaser]

Queensland looks like it has the best way to get into for overseas people with experience, plus you might get a chance to work on the Gold Coast. But there are problems with some areas as there is very heavy traffic on the Gold Coast in summer. I have heard of a victim in cardiac arrest who waited for ~ 25 minutes until ambulance got to him. Lifesavers performed CPR and wouldn't shock him due to a pacemaker implanted (obviously they need to be taught new protocols).
Any way here is link for QAS: http://www.ambulance.qld.gov.au/recruitment/priorqual.asp

Then you have SA Ambulance and WA which I think are ones you can apply to and they will train you. But WA should be the last resort if you decide for Australia!! bad dispatch systems and procedure, they don't even use CAD. They have had ambulances dispatched as priority 3 (flow with traffic) instead of Priority 1 (L&S).

Anyway best of luck

 

[downunderwunda]

Queensland looks like it has the best way to get into for overseas people with experience, plus you might get a chance to work on the Gold Coast. But there are problems with some areas as there is very heavy traffic on the Gold Coast in summer. I have heard of a victim in cardiac arrest who waited for ~ 25 minutes until ambulance got to him. Lifesavers performed CPR and wouldn't shock him due to a pacemaker implanted (obviously they need to be taught new protocols).
Any way here is link for QAS: http://www.ambulance.qld.gov.au/recruitment/priorqual.asp

Then you have SA Ambulance and WA which I think are ones you can apply to and they will train you. But WA should be the last resort if you decide for Australia!! bad dispatch systems and procedure, they don't even use CAD. They have had ambulances dispatched as priority 3 (flow with traffic) instead of Priority 1 (L&S).

Anyway best of luck

Chaser,

the other states will train you as well, however, they are looking for more Uni grads but the uni cannot keep up with demand. The other thing to remember is that most in the uni courses are undertaking a double degree & have no intention of working in prehospital care, but will take the credentials as a just in case. For example, rostering changes in NSW forced an increase in numbers. To accomodate this 650 extra staff have been recruited this year. Of those less than 100 came from uni.

The issues in WA are well documented, & they are both underfunded & under resourced. (But it is a contract to a private company, not a government run service like every other state need I say any more when we have seen the failings of a privatised US system?).

QLD are well resourced & underpaid. They have issues with their Union & Association. Every state has its positives & negatives. The main issue is that there is so much disparity between qualifications & experience it is difficult to equate a level from the US to aussie. The UK system is very similar to most aussie states & that is why their medics are accepted without a problem.

 

[Smash]

but it is New Zealand, thats like stepping back in time to the 1940's

What is your reason for saying that? I'm considering New Zealand as a lifestyle move.

 

[Scott33]

What is your reason for saying that? I'm considering New Zealand as a lifestyle move.

When my sister moved to NZ 5 years ago, she did say it was like being back in the 70's. Things like the pace of life, lack of reliance on technology, lack of population / cars on the roads etc. Some of the more rural areas get by on the most basic of provisions.

Not such a bad thing though, depending on what you want in life.

Edit: Got my dates wrong

 

[Smash]

Sorry I was referring specifically to EMS. I've ridden out with supervisors in a number of places, including Auckland, and it certainly seems like a progressive service with things like road based RSI and so on. This was some years back though, so maybe they haven't kept pace?

Downunda, can you enlighten me?

 

[downunderwunda]

If NZ is so good, why do more New Zealanders live in Australia than NZ?

Enough said

 

[Smash]

If NZ is so good, why do more New Zealanders live in Australia than NZ?

Enough said

I see. So you don't actually have anything to base your comments on? Is this just a retarded us vs them thing but on a national scale?

Can anyone with something constructive to say, or may actually have any idea what they are talking about let me know how New Zealand has kept up? As I say, they certainly seemed more progressive than many US services and more than the few Australian services I have ridden along with, but that was a few years back and things change.