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ffemt8978
11-13-2007, 11:43 PM
As a split off of the thread concerning PA Duty to Act Law, I've got a question for our members.

Does your state have a "Duty to Act" law for when you are off duty?

If it does, please provide a link or cite to the law. If it does not, please respond anyway so we can update the list.

UPDATE: Here is a list of the states and if they have a legal Duty to Act while off duty. Link goes to post in this thread
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=79118&postcount=29
Colorado - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=99669&postcount=44
Connecticut - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=62459&postcount=9
Delaware
District of Columbia
Florida - (Maybe) if part of government agency http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=101810&postcount=50
Georgia - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=65426&postcount=16
Hawaii
Idaho - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=66007&postcount=18
Illinois - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=142746&postcount=71
Indiana - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=65410&postcount=15
Iowa
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=120665&postcount=65
Michigan - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=263488&postcount=140
Minnesota - YES http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=89543&postcount=32
Mississippi - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=89660&postcount=33
Missouri - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=71060&postcount=23
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=323809&postcount=10
New Hampshire
New Jersey - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=99587&postcount=43
New Mexico - YES if in uniform http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=62072&postcount=7
New York - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=74169&postcount=25
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=62501&postcount=11
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=119411&postcount=57
Puerto Rico
Rhode Island
South Carolina -
South Dakota
Tennessee - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=255282&postcount=124
Texas - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=62066&postcount=5
Utah
Vermont - YES http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=60725&postcount=3
Virginia - NO
Washington - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=229156&postcount=104
West Virginia
Wisconsin - NO http://www.emtlife.com/showpost.php?p=265021&postcount=141
Wyoming

jrm818
11-14-2007, 12:08 AM
For some reason I feel like VT or ME might....I dont konw for sure because I don't work there, but I seem to remeber being told that one of those out-in-the-boonies states does.

jrm818
11-14-2007, 12:21 AM
Addendum: VT. definatly does - dunno about any other states.


12 Vt. Stat. Ann. § 519. Emergency medical care
(a) A person who knows that another is exposed to grave physical
harm shall, to the extent that the same can be rendered without
danger or peril to himself or without interference with important
duties owed to others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person
unless that assistance or care is being provided by others.
(b) A person who provides reasonable assistance in compliance
with subsection (a) of this section shall not be liable in civil damages
unless his acts constitute gross negligence or unless he will receive or
expects to receive remuneration. Nothing contained in this subsection
shall alter existing law with respect to tort liability of a practitioner of
the healing arts for acts committed in the ordinary course of his
practice.
(c) A person who willfully violates subsection (a) of this section
shall be fined not more than $100.00.

ki4mus
12-03-2007, 10:23 PM
VA don't have one, but if the County Cops/state troopers recognize your car, or you have rescue squad plates they can, will, and have commandeered people to work 10-50's and the like

one of our members was commandeered by a North Carolina trooper to work a 10-50 until a unit arrived (he had rescue squad plates)

mdtaylor
12-04-2007, 08:31 AM
Texas has NO duty to act when off duty.

wlamoreemtb
12-04-2007, 10:17 AM
im not sure if nj or ny does

TransportJockey
12-04-2007, 10:29 AM
From what I remember of that lecture in class, if you are in uniform (off duty or not) you have a duty to act. Otherwise you do not if off-duty
Out here in NM at least

missykay
12-09-2007, 01:49 PM
jtpaintball is correct for the state of New Mexico. Why to go. I to have to test on the 1-5-o8....lol. Good luck!!

fyrdog
12-09-2007, 09:31 PM
Connecticut has no duty to act. You can drive by in your POV with stickers and lights all over it and you don't have to stop.

ffemt8978
12-09-2007, 10:55 PM
For those of you that have responded that you do have a duty to act, please post a link to your state law. This is meant to be a factual thread, not one of opinions or vague recollections.

Thank you.

wolfwyndd
12-10-2007, 11:18 AM
To the best of my knowledge, Ohio does NOT have a Duty to Act law if you are offduty and in your POV. I don't believe we have a legal obligation to stop if we're in the ambulance if we are OUT of our jurisdiction. You better bet we will (as long as we don't have a patient already), but I don't think it's a legal obligation. I'll ask my wife though, she's an Ohio licensed attorney. If the information i have posted is inaccurate, I will repost the correct information.

medicman14
01-10-2008, 08:39 PM
Florida has no duty to act while off duty.

JPINFV
01-10-2008, 09:46 PM
To the best of my knowledge, California does not have a duty to act law for off duty providers.

hitechredneckemt
01-10-2008, 09:47 PM
i think i do remember talking about ohio having a duty to act law when i was in medic class

lcope
01-17-2008, 08:49 AM
Indiana, to the best of my knowledge, does not have a "duty to act" law.

Grady_emt
01-17-2008, 05:09 PM
Official Code of Georgia Annotated

TITLE 31. HEALTH
CHAPTER 11. EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES
ARTICLE 1. GENERAL PROVISIONS

O.C.G.A. § 31-11-8 (2007)

§ 31-11-8. Liability of persons rendering emergency care; liability of physicians advising ambulance service pursuant to Code Section 31-11-50; limitation to gratuitous services
(a) Any person, including agents and employees, who is licensed to furnish ambulance service and who in good faith renders emergency care to a person who is a victim of an accident or emergency shall not be liable for any civil damages to such victim as a result of any act or omission by such person in rendering such emergency care to such victim.
(b) A physician shall not be civilly liable for damages resulting from that physician's acting as medical adviser to an ambulance service, pursuant to Code Section 31-11-50, if those damages are not a result of that physician's willful and wanton negligence.
(c) The immunity provided in this Code section shall apply only to those persons who perform the aforesaid emergency services for no remuneration.

Ridryder911
01-17-2008, 05:25 PM
Actually every state has a "duty to act"; it is however they intent and how it is written that makes the difference.

R/r 911

Station2
01-25-2008, 09:41 PM
Idaho has NO duty to act when off duty.

MedRhett
01-30-2008, 06:23 PM
Found a link that gives 'duty to act' statute info for every state.

http://www.momsteam.com/alpha/features/cardiac_awareness_center/good_samaritan_laws.shtml

Flight-LP
01-30-2008, 08:40 PM
Found a link that gives 'duty to act' statute info for every state.

http://www.momsteam.com/alpha/features/cardiac_awareness_center/good_samaritan_laws.shtml

That link covers "Good Samaritan" offerings, has nothing to do with a duty to act..........................................

MedRhett
01-30-2008, 11:43 PM
I assume that the provisions regarding liability would still apply, though. Therefore, if you did decide to act, you could not face any legal repercussions - were something to go wrong.

Although, I guess it does depend on where you live as to who's covered under the law.

TheMowingMonk
02-22-2008, 04:56 AM
yeah it seems like the laws posted so far as duty to act laws are for the protection of those giving care. I know here in california we have the good samaratin law which protects people trying to help others from liabilty. But i know we have no laws the force us to act if we see an accident which is what i would consider a duty to act law. we can see an accident or someone that is injured and go right on by without doing anything (personally i would try to help but thats what the law says)

joemt
03-12-2008, 01:59 PM
According to the Missouri Unit of EMS, Missouri has no Duty to Act law.

kallen.2
03-22-2008, 10:05 PM
Texas has NO duty to act when off duty.


Does that mean we're protected under the Good Samaritan when we help while off duty? My instructor told us that the moment we set foot in the class room we were no longer protected under it.

...or I guess I could just do some research on that... ;)

CFRBryan347768
04-02-2008, 02:55 PM
Sorr if NY had allready been posted.
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/policy/98-05.htm

aussieemt1980
04-16-2008, 09:06 AM
Here in NSW, Aussie Land, we have the Civil Liability Act 2002, under which there is the "good samaritan" protection from liability for helping in good faith a person who is injured or at risk of being injured.

I have been told in the past that if we are trained, off duty (this information did not come from my current company - we work on the premise that life comes first and we should care for the patient if we are off duty) and walk past an injured person, we can later be sued for negligence if it is later found out that we are trained and did not follow our duty of care. I have also had the argument that I am required to administer scheduled medications off duty as I am trained and can be sued, even though my authority to practice is only when I am on duty. I personally would rather go to court for doing what I could and saving a life than facing the Department of Health and our Clinical Director for breach of protocol. The court would tell the individual that they are alive, and should be grateful. The Department of Health and our Clinical Director would take my job away.

Duty of Care is a very grey area. I did however, hunt through the various legislation that we have and did not actually find enshrined in legislation a duty to assist while off duty, I think it is something that is within common law as part of the duty of care obligations and an ethical decision to be made at the time. There may, however, be a policy or directive within an individual department that may direct a duty to assist while off duty.

The only duty to assist is when you are on duty, there was nothing about off duty performance.

JAM-EMT
04-20-2008, 09:08 PM
Ohio doesn't have it. Sorry no link, only what I've learned.

emtwacker710
05-06-2008, 12:07 PM
He is NYS for you guys..

New York State Department of Health
Bureau of Emergency Medical Services
POLICY STATEMENT
Supersedes /Updates:
No. 98-05
Date 5/23/98
Re: Responsibilities of
EMS Providers &
Coordination of
EMS Resources

DEFINITION OF RESPONSIBILITIES OF PREHOSPITAL PATIENT CARE PROVIDERS
AND THE COORDINATION OF EMS RESOURCES AT A SCENE


NYS statutes do not obligate an individual citizen, regardless of training, to
respond to a situation or provide care unless there is a formal duty by job description
or role expectation. Such a duty to act arises from participation with an agency having
jurisdiction.

From: http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/98-05.pdf

mperkel
05-12-2008, 11:47 PM
For California:

http://www.lasdemt.org/pages/off_duty.htm

FROM THE EMERGI-PRESS SUMMER 2000

Rendering Care Off-Duty

by Luanne Underwood, RN, BSN MICN

Portions of this article are reprinted, with permission, from the Alameda County EMS newsletter.

The Los Angeles County EMS Agency, as well as other local EMS agencies throughout the State, often receive questions regarding what type of aid pre hospital care personnel may ren der when they are off-duty. This includes rendering care off-duty during special events or other gatherings when pre-hospital care personnel are not working for an approved provider. Recently, we came across an article in Alameda County’s newsletter which did an excellent job of covering this topic. The following are excerpts from that article which include the most frequently asked questions and their answers.

Q: If I pass the scene of an accident, am I obligated to stop and render aid?

A: No one is obligated to stop and render aid. Likewise, no one is obligated to render aid even if they do stop. Those are decisions that are up to each indi vidual. However, if you are the kind of person who does choose to stop and render aid, it is good to be prepared to safeguard your well being, as well as to under stand your responsibilities and protection under the law.

Q: What level of care can paramedics and EMT-Is legally provide on the scene?

A: Paramedics and EMT-l's may only offer basic life support (BLS) level care when they are off-duty. Paramedics may only perform advanced life support (ALS) skills as part of an organ:censored:ized EMS system while working for an approved paramedic service provider. Therefore, para medics may NOT provide ALS level care off-duty pursuant to the California Code of Regulations, Title 22, Division 9.

Q: What does California law say about pre hospital care personnel providing care off-duty?

A: Section 1799.102 of the California Health and Safety Code states:

“No person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages re sulting from any act or omission. The scene of an emergency shall not include emergency depart ments and other places where medical care is usually offered.”

To encourage pre-hospital care personnel to render care at the scene of an emergency, Section 1799.106 of the Health and Safety Code was included and states the following:
.... In order to encourage the provision of emergency medical services by firefighters, police officers or other law enforcement officers, EMT-l's, EMT-ll's or EMT P's, . . [these individuals] who render emergency medical services at the scene of an emergency shall only be liable in civil damages for acts or omissions per formed in a grossly negligent manner or acts or omissions not performed in good faith. A public agency employing such a fire fighter, police officer or other law enforcement officer, EMT-l, EMT II, or EMT-P shall not be liable for civil damages if the . . .[individual] is not liable.”

Q: Does a paramedic, when working for an approved paramedic service provider, have to take orders from a nurse or physician at the scene of an emergency?

A: Nurses, either on-duty or off-duty, may only offer assistance and suggestions, they may not assume medical management of the patient. Physicians licensed in the State of California, either on-duty or off-duty may lend assistance to a pre-hospital care team that is in charge of the patient; however, they may not direct paramedics in advanced life support procedures. Medical direction must come from the base hospital. When encountering a physician at scene, paramedics must obtain proper identification, consisting of a California Physicians and Surgeons License and note the physician’s name, license number and license expiration date on the EMS Report form. In the event radio communication cannot be made or main tained with a base hospital, paramedics may assist the physician at scene and may provide ALS level care under the direction of the physician provided that his/her instructions are consistent with Los Angeles County EMS Agency policies and procedures.

California law does not preclude a licensed physician from rending patient care at the scene. When a physician at scene chooses to assume or retain responsibility for medical care of a patient, pursuant to Reference No. 816, Physician At Scene, such physician must take total re sponsibility for the care given. Reference No. 816 further states, “He/she must also accompany the patient until the patient arrives at a hospital and responsibility is as sumed by the receiving physician, unless relieved of the responsibil ity by the base hospital.” (For ad:censored:ditional information regarding “Physician At Scene” please refer to Reference No. 816 in the Los Angeles County Pre-hospital Care Policy Manual.)

If you have a question or is sue that requires immediate re sponse, please contact Luanne Underwood, Chief, Pre-hospital Care Operations at (323) 890-7576. It is preferred that non-urgent questions be put in writing and faxed to (323) 890-7629 or e-mailed to lunderwood@dhs.co.la.ca.us. We will print as many of the questions, as possible, in this column. If you want to ensure a response, please be sure to in clude your name and telephone number.

snaketooth10k
06-03-2008, 08:04 AM
NJ healthcare providers have no duty to act unless on duty.

-also-

The Good Samaritan Law in New Jersey protects any person who is a.) Acting in good faith b.) Acting to the extent of their training and certification and c.) doing so to the best of their knowledge and skill, from liability and litigation from those they are helping.
This law differs from state to state, and if you really need to know (I think most of you do), you can call your local police department for information.

WuLabsWuTecH
06-17-2008, 02:06 AM
To the best of my knowledge, Ohio does NOT have a Duty to Act law if you are offduty and in your POV. I don't believe we have a legal obligation to stop if we're in the ambulance if we are OUT of our jurisdiction. You better bet we will (as long as we don't have a patient already), but I don't think it's a legal obligation. I'll ask my wife though, she's an Ohio licensed attorney. If the information i have posted is inaccurate, I will repost the correct information.

Ohio doesn't have it. Sorry no link, only what I've learned.

This is correct from what I have learned. A Citation to the law would be impossible as it does not exist!

rchristi
08-05-2008, 11:35 AM
Minnesota has a Duty to Act as part of their Good samaritan law.
Here is a link.
https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/getpub.php?type=s&num=604A.01&year=2006

MJordan2121
08-06-2008, 02:25 AM
Since you are not under med control's supervision, you are not required to act in the State of Mississippi

mycrofft
08-21-2008, 01:46 PM
http://www.kinseylaw.com/clientserv2/civillitigationserv/negligence/negligence.html

I cannot find a California state statute serching "duty to act" except regarding lawyers.

If I recall my professional CPR resource book, if you are trained and can respond you have a duty. If you are employed/on duty, deputized etc, you have a special duty. Certain states have enacted specific laws to put frosting on the cake.
i seem to remember Nebraska adopting one about 1984.

MissTrishEMTB08
08-22-2008, 09:53 AM
Florida has no LEGAL Duty to Act if you are not on the clock, uniform or not. However, I think many of us have a moral duty to act. We are in the job because we like to help people, maybe for the adrenalin rush too. So if you see someone in need of help and aide, does it matter if you are legally bound to do so?

RESQ_5_1
08-24-2008, 01:34 PM
Alberta does not have any Duty to Act regulation that I have found. We do, however, have our Good Samaritan Law;

EMERGENCY MEDICAL AID ACT

Chapter E‑7



HER MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta, enacts as follows:

Definitions

1 In this Act,

(a) “physician” means a person who is registered as a medical practitioner under the Medical Profession Act;

(b) “registered health discipline member” means a person who is registered under the Health Disciplines Act or a regulated member under Schedule 1, 10, 13, 18 or 25 to the Health Professions Act;

(c) “registered nurse” means a person who is a registered nurse within the meaning of the Health Professions Act.

RSA 2000 cE‑7 s1;RSA 2000 cH‑7 ss147,155

Protection from action

2 If, in respect of a person who is ill, injured or unconscious as the result of an accident or other emergency,

(a) a physician, registered health discipline member, or registered nurse voluntarily and without expectation of compensation or reward renders emergency medical services or first aid assistance and the services or assistance are not rendered at a hospital or other place having adequate medical facilities and equipment, or

(b) a person other than a person mentioned in clause (a) voluntarily renders emergency first aid assistance and that assistance is rendered at the immediate scene of the accident or emergency,

the physician, registered health discipline member, registered nurse or other person is not liable for damages for injuries to or the death of that person alleged to have been caused by an act or omission on his or her part in rendering the medical services or first aid assistance, unless it is established that the injuries or death were caused by gross negligence on his or her part.

RSA 1980 cE‑9 s2;RSA 1980 cH‑5.1 s34;1984 c53 s27

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08-27-2008, 03:27 AM
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BLSBoy
08-30-2008, 12:21 AM
Florida has no LEGAL Duty to Act if you are not on the clock, uniform or not. However, I think many of us have a moral duty to act. We are in the job because we like to help people, maybe for the adrenalin rush too. So if you see someone in need of help and aide, does it matter if you are legally bound to do so?

Might want to double check that one.

There was an Ocseola (IIRC) FF who stopped at an accident scene, was stuck and killed, along with a doctor who had stopped as well.

He was granted full LODD benefits because then Gov. Bush had signed a law into effect that stated LEOs, FFs and EMS personnel had a duty to act.

Gimme some time to double check that.

BLSBoy
08-30-2008, 12:26 AM
http://www.fallenbrothers.com/community/archive/index.php?t-2275.html

The U.S. Department of Justice will reconsider awarding federal line of duty death benefits to the widow of Firefighter Shane Kelly of Oviedo, FL, in light of new information about his actions, officials said.

Kelly was off duty when he pulled over to help an injured motorist on the Florida Turnpike on June 8. A tractor-trailer slid off the road near the accident scene and killed Kelly.

When Kelly's wife Rachel was denied an award through the DOJ's Public Safety Officer's Benefit program, officials from the Oviedo Professional Fire Fighters Local 3476 argued that the City of Oviedo, as well as the State Workman's Compensation Division, had recognized Kelly's death as a line of duty death and drew attention to his case.

DOJ spokeswoman Sheila Jerusalem said that to qualify for benefits, the officer's actions must have been required by his or her position as a safety officer.

Kelly was denied because he was outside his jurisdiction and off duty, and there was no mutual aid agreement showing a requirement for him to respond to this area.

However, the DOJ has since learned of legislation passed in Florida May 8 by Gov. Jeb Bush, which requires public safety officers to respond to any emergency situation they encounter.

Jerusalem said the legislation is explicit in stating that these officers are acting in the line of duty and that the legislation serves as a mutual aid agreement.

Although the DOJ has the same standards for line of duty deaths in every state, the Florida legislation carries weight in Kelly's case because it required him to act.

She said Kelly's widow has appealed the DOJ's decision and they are in the process of assigning a hearing officer to the case and setting a hearing date.

At the hearing, Rachel Kelly or anyone acting on Kelly's behalf, may present this information and the hearing officer will decide whether benefits are warranted.

Jerusalem said the hearing officers are independent of the DOJ and are usually attorneys or law professors. She also said the hearings are very informal, and not meant to intimidate anyone or make them feel that they need to bring an attorney.

Jerusalem said she is unaware of any other state with legislation that requires off duty public safety officers to respond to emergencies. She said Kelly's case may set a precedent in determining line of duty death status.

NRCCEMTP26
09-19-2008, 02:09 PM
Yes as Living in South Carolina we are abided to uphold the "duty to act" law

reaper
09-19-2008, 04:56 PM
That news to me!

rhan101277
10-10-2008, 09:14 PM
Mississippi has no duty to act when off duty.

abriggs
10-11-2008, 11:48 PM
NJ has no duty to act when off duty.

mbcwgrl
10-12-2008, 07:39 PM
In Colorado there is no "Duty to Act" law off duty. However, say you see an accident and don't stop... And you have the star of life on your car.... And someone notices that you did not stop... And somehow, somewhere it gets back to your company and it is identified it is you... Your company will probably not look to fondly at that... Also, while in uniform most companies request that you help out even if you are not on duty. It looks kinda bad for the company if you just go on about your business wearing their logo!

micsaver
10-16-2008, 11:15 AM
It's my understanding that in MA there is no "duty to act" if you are off-duty. That if you do respond to assist a person with an injury or medical issue that you act at your level of certification. If your an EMT-B you would provide care at that level. Anything less could be considered negligent even with the good samaritan laws.

This is a bit confusing though... if I am off duty and I find a woman that was holding an icepack to her head because she tripped and hit her head... She has no AMS, Pupils = round and reactive, she is pink-warm & dry. No loss of consciousness w/ Slight nausea and dizziness that went away after sitting for a bit. BUT I didn't put her in a collar with a back board (because I was off duty at my non-emt job) and just recommended that she go to the hospital or see her doctor ASAP. She didn't want an ambulance and it didn't seem she needed one. She was picked up and taken to her doctor.

So would that be negligent? Should you really not get involved unless it is major trauma, because then you would call an ambulance anyway?

micsaver
10-17-2008, 09:18 AM
Massachusetts
CHAPTER 111C. EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES SYSTEM

Chapter 111C: Section 21. EMS personnel; good faith performance of duties; limitation on personal liability

Section 21. No EMS personnel certified, accredited or otherwise approved under this chapter, and no additional personnel certified or authorized under section 9, who in the performance of their duties and in good faith render emergency first aid, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, transportation, or other EMS, to an injured person or to a person incapacitated by illness shall be personally liable as a result of rendering such aid or services or, in the case of an emergency medical technician or additional personnel, as a result of transporting such person to a hospital or other health care facility, nor shall they be liable to a hospital for its expenses if, under emergency conditions, they cause the admission of such person to said hospital.

rhan101277
10-24-2008, 07:44 PM
It's my understanding that in MA there is no "duty to act" if you are off-duty. That if you do respond to assist a person with an injury or medical issue that you act at your level of certification. If your an EMT-B you would provide care at that level. Anything less could be considered negligent even with the good samaritan laws.

This is a bit confusing though... if I am off duty and I find a woman that was holding an icepack to her head because she tripped and hit her head... She has no AMS, Pupils = round and reactive, she is pink-warm & dry. No loss of consciousness w/ Slight nausea and dizziness that went away after sitting for a bit. BUT I didn't put her in a collar with a back board (because I was off duty at my non-emt job) and just recommended that she go to the hospital or see her doctor ASAP. She didn't want an ambulance and it didn't seem she needed one. She was picked up and taken to her doctor.

So would that be negligent? Should you really not get involved unless it is major trauma, because then you would call an ambulance anyway?

That a good question, it isn't like you have a good samaritan refusal form. I definitely don't plan on carrying a backboard or cervical collar around. I just want to be able to provide basic life support to the extent I can if I happen to be at a location and it is needed. I just can't see letting someone die, if there is something I can do to help them.

VentMedic
10-24-2008, 08:18 PM
Might want to double check that one.

There was an Ocseola (IIRC) FF who stopped at an accident scene, was stuck and killed, along with a doctor who had stopped as well.

He was granted full LODD benefits because then Gov. Bush had signed a law into effect that stated LEOs, FFs and EMS personnel had a duty to act.

Gimme some time to double check that.

I am trying to find the exact statute on that on but right now it stands as ONLY for employees of a governmental agency. It may not hold true for employees of private companies.

In the meantime here's another discussion on that:

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=2046

Where Duty Ends: The Perils & Pitfalls of Off-Duty Response

Updated: July 8th, 2008 05:26 PM EDT
From the September 2004 Issue (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1&issueId=15) of Emergency Medical Services (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1)

And after the incident, state policy was changed so that all such injuries and deaths among employees of government fire and EMS agencies in Florida are now considered to be in the line of duty. That’s a nice legacy for a young firefighter who gave his life. But it’s only one aspect to the complicated issue of off-duty responses.

BLSBoy
10-24-2008, 08:29 PM
Vent, that was a very good article to read, and I had not seen that before.

If you do find that statute, please let us know. Although I live in Jersey now, I have not ruled out a return to Fla after jobs open up again.

VentMedic
10-24-2008, 10:24 PM
Found Florida's statute for the workmen comp part:

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0440/SEC091.HTM&Title=-%3E2005-%3ECh0440-%3ESection+091


440.091 Law enforcement officer, firefighter, emergency medical technician, or paramedic; when acting within the course of employment.
440.092 Special requirements for compensability; deviation from employment; subsequent intervening accidents.


(3) If an emergency medical technician or paramedic is appointed or employed full time by a municipality, the state, or any political subdivision, is certified under chapter 401, is providing basic life support or advanced life support services, as defined in s. 401.23 (http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0401/Sec23.HTM), in an emergency situation in this state, and such activities would be considered to be within the course of his or her employment as an emergency medical technician or paramedic and covered by the employer's workers' compensation coverage except for the fact that the location of the emergency was outside of the employer's jurisdiction or area of responsibility, such activities are considered to be within the course of employment. The provisions of this subsection do not apply if the emergency medical technician or paramedic is performing activities for which he or she is paid by another employer or contractor.


As far as duty to act, I have not found the direct statute.

This is the bill Jeb signed in 2002 which was referred to in the Kelly case:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/data/session/2002/Senate/bills/billtext/pdf/s0108er.pdf

bls4life
12-21-2008, 12:42 AM
it's snowing out today

Kendall
12-21-2008, 12:44 AM
Way to bring up a DEAD topic...

silver
12-21-2008, 12:49 AM
Way to bring up a DEAD topic...

its stickied so it really isn't dead, instead it really is a useless spam post.

ATHEISTMEDIC
12-24-2008, 01:44 PM
when the 24th hour strikes I am a civilian, and civilians get sued.

reaper
12-24-2008, 01:53 PM
So do providers!

A140160
01-24-2009, 04:53 PM
I might be getting of your topic of snowing but....

In the state of PA, we have a duty to act law which states that if an EMS provider stops at the scene (lets say its an MVA), that EMS provider must provide care, otherwise it's a breach of duty, which could make you liable for negligence. However, if you don't stop, then it's not a problem.

VentMedic
01-24-2009, 09:46 PM
I might be getting of your topic of snowing but....

In the state of PA, we have a duty to act law which states that if an EMS provider stops at the scene (lets say its an MVA), that EMS provider must provide care, otherwise it's a breach of duty, which could make you liable for negligence. However, if you don't stop, then it's not a problem.

Yes as an on duty EMS provider you have a duty to act. As an off duty citizen you only have a duty to act as any other reasonable person would act.

You have just quoted the "duty to act" for someone working as an EMS provider. In other words, you can not ignore the patient in front of you when working as an EMT(P) and must provider the appropriate care.

If you believe your employer will cover you for workmen's comp and liability even during your off-duty hours where he/she has no control over your conduct, make sure you get that in writing. Many employers would rather not have you being seen wearing their logo or uniform during off duty hours or making any claims that you are in anyway associated with them.

Read your statutes:

http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/lib/health/ems/emsact_45_85.pdf

trevor1189
01-28-2009, 10:37 PM
So say as an off duty PA EMT-B whose has a trauma kit in their personal car stops at an accident in Pennsylvania and administers treatment that a normal person would not know how to do, could they be sued for negligence if something goes wrong?

EeyoreEMT
01-29-2009, 12:09 AM
Ohio Good Samaritan Law



§ 2305.23 Liability for emergency care.

No person shall be liable in civil damages for administering emergency care or treatment at the scene of an emergency outside of a hospital, doctor's office, or other place having proper medical equipment, for acts performed at the scene of such emergency, unless such acts constitute willful or wanton misconduct.

Nothing in this section applies to the administering of such care or treatment where the same is rendered for remuneration, or with the expectation of remuneration, from the recipient of such care or treatment or someone on his behalf. The administering of such care or treatment by one as a part of his duties as a paid member of any organization of law enforcement officers or fire fighters does not cause such to be a rendering for remuneration or expectation of remuneration.



(HISTORY: 130 v 648 (Eff 9-16-63); 137 v S 209. Eff 8-18-77.)





§ 4765.49 Civil immunity of emergency medical personnel and agencies.



(A) A first responder, emergency medical technician-basic, emergency medical technician-intermediate, or emergency medical technician-paramedic is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the individual's administration of emergency medical services, unless the services are administered in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct. A physician or registered nurse designated by a physician, who is advising or assisting in the emergency medical services by means of any communication device or telemetering system, is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the individual's advisory communication or assistance, unless the advisory communication or assistance is provided in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct. Medical directors and members of cooperating physician advisory boards of emergency medical service organizations are not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from their acts or omissions in the performance of their duties, unless the act or omission constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(B) A political subdivision, joint ambulance district, joint emergency medical services district, or other public agency, and any officer or employee of a public agency or of a private organization operating under contract or in joint agreement with one or more political subdivisions, that provides emergency medical services, or that enters into a joint agreement or a contract with the state, any political subdivision, joint ambulance district, or joint emergency medical services district for the provision of emergency medical services, is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property arising out of any actions taken by a first responder, EMT-basic, EMT-I, or paramedic working under the officer's or employee's jurisdiction, or for injury, death, or loss to person or property arising out of any actions of licensed medical personnel advising or assisting the first responder, EMT-basic, EMT-I, or paramedic, unless the services are provided in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(C) A student who is enrolled in an emergency medical services training program accredited under section 4765.17 of the Revised Code or an emergency medical services continuing education program approved under that section is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from either of the following:

(1) The student's administration of emergency medical services or patient care or treatment, if the services, care, or treatment is administered while the student is under the direct supervision and in the immediate presence of an EMT-basic, EMT-I, paramedic, registered nurse, or physician and while the student is receiving clinical training that is required by the program, unless the services, care, or treatment is provided in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct;

(2) The student's training as an ambulance driver, unless the driving is done in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(D) An EMT-basic, EMT-I, paramedic, or other operator, who holds a valid commercial driver's license issued pursuant to Chapter 4506. of the Revised Code or driver's license issued pursuant to Chapter 4507. of the Revised Code and who is employed by an emergency medical service organization that is not owned or operated by a political subdivision as defined in section 2744.01 of the Revised Code, is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property that is caused by the operation of an ambulance by the EMT-basic, EMT-I, paramedic, or other operator while responding to or completing a call for emergency medical services, unless the operation constitutes willful or wanton misconduct or does not comply with the precautions of section 4511.03 of the Revised Code. An emergency medical service organization is not liable in damages in a civil action for any injury, death, or loss to person or property that is caused by the operation of an ambulance by its employee or agent, if this division grants the employee or agent immunity from civil liability for the injury, death, or loss.

(E) An employee or agent of an emergency medical service organization who receives requests for emergency medical services that are directed to the organization, dispatches first responders, EMTs-basic, EMTs-I, or paramedics in response to such requests, communicates such requests to those employees or agents of the organization who are authorized to dispatch first responders, EMTs-basic, EMTs-I, or paramedics, or performs any combination of these functions for the organization, is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the individual's acts or omissions in the performance of those duties for the organization, unless an act or omission constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(F) A person who is performing the functions of a first responder, EMT-basic, EMT-I, or paramedic under the authority of the laws of a state that borders this state and who provides emergency medical services to or transportation of a patient in this state is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the person's administration of emergency medical services, unless the services are administered in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct. A physician or registered nurse designated by a physician, who is licensed to practice in the adjoining state and who is advising or assisting in the emergency medical services by means of any communication device or telemetering system is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the person's advisory communication or assistance, unless the advisory communication or assistance is provided in a manner that constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(G) A person certified under section 4765.23 of the Revised Code to teach in an emergency medical services training program or emergency medical services continuing education program is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the person's acts or omissions in the performance of the person's duties, unless an act or omission constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(H) In the accreditation of emergency medical services training programs or approval of emergency medical services continuing education programs, the state board of emergency medical services and any person or entity authorized by the board to evaluate applications for accreditation or approval are not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from their acts or omissions in the performance of their duties, unless an act or omission constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(I) A person authorized by an emergency medical service organization to review the performance of first responders, EMTs-basic, EMTs-I, and paramedics or to administer quality assurance programs is not liable in damages in a civil action for injury, death, or loss to person or property resulting from the person's acts or omissions in the performance of the person's duties, unless an act or omission constitutes willful or wanton misconduct.

(HISTORY: RC § 4731.90, 136 v H 832 (Eff 8-31-76); 137 v S 347 (Eff 7-13-78); 137 v H 1092 (Eff 7-21-78); 138 v H 1 (Eff 5-16-79); 138 v H 201 (Eff 2-28-80); 140 v H 446 (Eff 6-20-84); 141 v H 176 (Eff 11-20-85); RC § 3303.21, 141 v H 222 (Eff 5-15-86); 141 v H 428 (Eff 12-23-86); 143 v H 381 (Eff 7-1-89); RC § 4765.49, 144 v S 98 (Eff 11-12-92); 145 v H 384 (Eff 11-11-94); 146 v S 150 (Eff 11-24-95); 146 v H 405. Eff 10-1-96.)

BLSBoy
01-29-2009, 12:34 AM
So say as an off duty PA EMT-B whose has a trauma kit in their personal car stops at an accident in Pennsylvania and administers treatment that a normal person would not know how to do, could they be sued for negligence if something goes wrong?

First off, get your EMT.

Second off, don't get a trauma kit.

Third, only stop if it JUST occured, and there are dead and dying everywhere.

trevor1189
01-29-2009, 12:38 AM
First off, get your EMT.

Second off, don't get a trauma kit.

Third, only stop if it JUST occured, and there are dead and dying everywhere.
thanks very helpful. :rolleyes:

trevor1189
01-29-2009, 12:49 PM
Anyone have a REAL response to my question on the previous page?

medic417
01-29-2009, 12:59 PM
Anyone have a REAL response to my question on the previous page?

Lets say you choose to move the patient for no good reason other than theres a comfortable spot to sit nearby. You move patient with no c-spine or spinal precautions. Patient becomes disabled. Yes you would be held to a higher degree of liability because your "training" taught you not to that. You did harm by violating the "training" you had recieved. The average person moves the person they would be protected because their ignorance is true ignorance. You with "training" can not plead the ignorance card.

VentMedic
01-29-2009, 01:11 PM
A very good article:

Where Duty Ends: The Perils & Pitfalls of Off-Duty Response

From the September 2004 Issue (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1&issueId=15) of Emergency Medical Services (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1)

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=2046

Have your EMT instructor explain your state's EMS and Good Sam laws or at least point you into that direction.

If you plan on running around with a trauma bag and stopping at all the accidents you come across, at least make sure you:
have a reflective vest
park your car out of harm's way (it will attract rubber neckers)
don't stop with your family members in the car
and get extra personal medical/life insurance plans.

imurphy
01-29-2009, 03:41 PM
There are several laws in Massachusetts insulating those rendering aid from liability, but no law requiring a bystander to provide assistance. Separate statutes free EMS personnel, physicians and nurses, and the general public trained in CPR from personal liability. Many sources suggest that Massachusetts has a “duty to aid” law, which requires witnesses to come to the assistance of crime victims. In fact, this law creates a duty to report, but not a duty to aid.

Chapter 268, section 40

"
Whoever knows that another person is a victim of aggravated rape, rape, murder, manslaughter or armed robbery and is at the scene of said crime shall, to the extent that said person can do so without danger or peril to himself or others, report said crime to an appropriate law enforcement official as soon as reasonably practicable.
"

Chapter 111C: Section 21

"
No EMS personnel certified, accredited or otherwise approved under this chapter, and no additional personnel certified or authorized under section 9, who in the performance of their duties and in good faith render emergency first aid, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, transportation, or other EMS, to an injured person or to a person incapacitated by illness shall be personally liable as a result of rendering such aid or services or, in the case of an emergency medical technician or additional personnel, as a result of transporting such person to a hospital or other health care facility, nor shall they be liable to a hospital for its expenses if, under emergency conditions, they cause the admission of such person to said hospital.
"


References:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/268-40.htm

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/111c-21.htm

trevor1189
02-01-2009, 03:01 PM
A very good article:

Where Duty Ends: The Perils & Pitfalls of Off-Duty Response

From the September 2004 Issue (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1&issueId=15) of Emergency Medical Services (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1)

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=2046

Have your EMT instructor explain your state's EMS and Good Sam laws or at least point you into that direction.

If you plan on running around with a trauma bag and stopping at all the accidents you come across, at least make sure you:
have a reflective vest
park your car out of harm's way (it will attract rubber neckers)
don't stop with your family members in the car
and get extra personal medical/life insurance plans.
Thanks for the article, good read. B)

trevor1189
02-01-2009, 07:30 PM
Found this for pennsylvania:

CHAPTER 83. PARTICULAR RIGHTS AND IMMUNITIES
§ 8331. Medical good Samaritan civil immunity.

(a) General rule.--Any physician or any other practitioner of the healing arts or any registered nurse, licensed by any state, who happens by chance upon the scene of an emergency or who arrives on the scene of an emergency by reason of serving on an emergency call panel or similar committee of a county medical society or who is called to the scene of an emergency by the police or other duly constituted officers of a government unit or who is present when an emergency occurs and who, in good faith, renders emergency care at the scene of the emergency, shall not be liable for any civil damages as a result of any acts or omissions by such physician or practitioner or registered nurse in rendering the emergency care, except any acts or omissions intentionally designed to harm or any grossly negligent acts or omissions which result in harm to the person receiving emergency care.

(b) Definition.--As used in this section "good faith" shall include, but is not limited to, a reasonable opinion that the immediacy of the situation is such that the rendering of care should not be postponed until the patient is hospitalized.


Didn't see anything about being required to stop though...

NEMed2
02-03-2009, 04:20 PM
In my area of small cow town CT we have mutual aid agreements with surrounding towns and as such, I would stop and at least investigate a wreck, or take a look at someone who was sick if someone asked for help. But I also cary a gear bag in my car that allows me to render care to a BLS level. (Required equipment for my department)

That being said, outside of my area I'm not about to stop & try and take care of someone who doesn't want my assistance unless they are really sick/bleeding everywhere. And I wouldn't offer that I'm an EMT unless it becomes very apparent that I'm doing something a lay person would have no idea about. Good samaritan law aside, I like to keep my cert where it is.

EMT11KDL
02-11-2009, 02:02 AM
It's my understanding that in MA there is no "duty to act" if you are off-duty. That if you do respond to assist a person with an injury or medical issue that you act at your level of certification. If your an EMT-B you would provide care at that level. Anything less could be considered negligent even with the good samaritan laws.

This is a bit confusing though... if I am off duty and I find a woman that was holding an icepack to her head because she tripped and hit her head... She has no AMS, Pupils = round and reactive, she is pink-warm & dry. No loss of consciousness w/ Slight nausea and dizziness that went away after sitting for a bit. BUT I didn't put her in a collar with a back board (because I was off duty at my non-emt job) and just recommended that she go to the hospital or see her doctor ASAP. She didn't want an ambulance and it didn't seem she needed one. She was picked up and taken to her doctor.

So would that be negligent? Should you really not get involved unless it is major trauma, because then you would call an ambulance anyway?

NO this would not be negligent.

for negligent ALL 4 must apply. It is an all or nothing case.

* There is a duty to act
* There is a breach of that duty
* The breach causes an affect
* Damage has been inflicted to another

dallasdame
02-27-2009, 09:34 PM
Texas has no duty to act laws but if you do...they have a good samaritan shield law.......which of course does not apply to EMTs because we would "normally expect payment for services". If you screw up, you still get sued.

http://www.premack.com/columns/2003/2003-03-18.htm

"Doc" Fox
04-30-2009, 02:48 PM
As far as I know, Illinois does not have a Duty To Act statute. Even though most EMT's, and FF I know would stop and provide help, unless there are EMT's/FF, or LEO's on the scene already. At most MVAs, I have personally stopped before, and asked everyone involved if theye need medical help, cell phone, what have you, and have stated that I am a First Responder. Usually, the police/sheriffs department shows by then, and has already activied there EMS to respond to the scene.

FF177EMS583
04-30-2009, 05:53 PM
PENNSYLVANIA DOES.

If you have a FF sticker or EMS sticker or the platees as we;; you have to pull over to assist who ever is in danger unles a BLS/ALS unit is on Scene. I was driving to my girlfriends house in FREELAND,PA when HAZLE TWP FIRE/RESCUE was dispatched to

ST RTE 940 for a public assist so we arrived on scene along witha fire police unit from a neighboring community . the woman called LUZERNE COUNTY 911 statiing that she couldnt get out of her basement when we arrived on scene ,she was flagging us down,and stated that her hamburger was going to catch fire. she had locked all her doors as me and another FF from sugarloaf /West Hazleton were checking the doors and trying to see where the stove was she continued to yell at us that the doors are locked. we simply kept saying , "MAM, CALM DOWN" she kept pestering us as we were trying to work. finally i looked at her and said "MAM, YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TRAINED FOR AND WE CANT WORK WITH YOU YELLING AT US."

BLSBoy
04-30-2009, 06:01 PM
PENNSYLVANIA DOES.

If you have a FF sticker or EMS sticker or the platees as we;; you have to pull over to assist who ever is in danger unles a BLS/ALS unit is on Scene. I was driving to my girlfriends house in FREELAND,PA when HAZLE TWP FIRE/RESCUE was dispatched to

ST RTE 940 for a public assist so we arrived on scene along witha fire police unit from a neighboring community . the woman called LUZERNE COUNTY 911 statiing that she couldnt get out of her basement when we arrived on scene ,she was flagging us down,and stated that her hamburger was going to catch fire. she had locked all her doors as me and another FF from sugarloaf /West Hazleton were checking the doors and trying to see where the stove was she continued to yell at us that the doors are locked. we simply kept saying , "MAM, CALM DOWN" she kept pestering us as we were trying to work. finally i looked at her and said "MAM, YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TRAINED FOR AND WE CANT WORK WITH YOU YELLING AT US."

I need a doc on the line for sedation............<_<

cprguys
05-18-2009, 08:55 PM
page 2 second paragraph
http://www.health.state.ny.us/nysdoh/ems/pdf/98-05.pdf

trevor1189
05-18-2009, 09:59 PM
PENNSYLVANIA DOES.

If you have a FF sticker or EMS sticker or the platees as we;; you have to pull over to assist who ever is in danger unles a BLS/ALS unit is on Scene. I was driving to my girlfriends house in FREELAND,PA when HAZLE TWP FIRE/RESCUE was dispatched to

ST RTE 940 for a public assist so we arrived on scene along witha fire police unit from a neighboring community . the woman called LUZERNE COUNTY 911 statiing that she couldnt get out of her basement when we arrived on scene ,she was flagging us down,and stated that her hamburger was going to catch fire. she had locked all her doors as me and another FF from sugarloaf /West Hazleton were checking the doors and trying to see where the stove was she continued to yell at us that the doors are locked. we simply kept saying , "MAM, CALM DOWN" she kept pestering us as we were trying to work. finally i looked at her and said "MAM, YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN, THIS IS WHAT WE ARE TRAINED FOR AND WE CANT WORK WITH YOU YELLING AT US."
I have never seen a sticker mentioned in duty to act law... :unsure:
I have a star of life sticker on my car. Does that mean I am required to stop an assist?


Can you provide a link?

JPINFV
05-18-2009, 10:42 PM
The issues with stickers is probably more of a practical thing than a legal thing. You can make all the 'duty to act' laws regarding off duty providers you want, but how exactly are you going to identify which cars have an off duty provider on it? Having stickers on your car doesn't change the law, it just puts a huge blinking sign saying "Hi Mom, I'm breaking the law!" when ever the car passes an accident.

wolfwyndd
05-19-2009, 01:37 PM
PENNSYLVANIA DOES.
If you have a FF sticker or EMS sticker or the platees as we;; you have to pull over to assist who ever is in danger unles a BLS/ALS unit is on Scene. I was driving to my girlfriends house in FREELAND,PA when HAZLE TWP FIRE/RESCUE was dispatched to
[story snipped for brevity.]
I believe your story, HOWEVER, I find it very difficult to believe that even with whacker lights and sirens and stickers and even a PLATE that says FF/EMT that if you're off duty you are REQUIRED to stop and render assistance. Unless I'm missing something, I've searched http://www.pacode.com and I can't find any reference at all to 'duty to act' for off duty personnel. I'm not saying that most of us WOULDN'T stop to help, only that I can't find a REQUIREMENT. Personally, I'd like to see a code cited.

JennyKitten76
06-01-2009, 11:30 AM
For any military medics out there (as I'm sure there must be plenty)

Our unit was just briefed: regardless of our status (we're reservists), location, etc - we must act.

I guess there has been some discussion about this, I haven't seen our dictate in writing, but it was made clear.

Punishable by whom: IDK. Enforcable how: IDK.

I didn't ask because I don't care. I will act unless my life is in danger. Thats just me.

Any military medics who want clarification might want to find out.

KillTank
06-08-2009, 01:42 AM
Texas does not have the law but I would stop to help. I know I would want someone to stop and help one of my loved ones..

DHarris52
06-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Not for nothing, but unless you carry a jump kit in your POV, how much aid can you actually render at the scene of an accident?

Sticker or no sticker, I just don't see how these laws are enforceable. Without the proper supplies/equipment, all you're going to do is get in the way.

KillTank
06-16-2009, 08:33 PM
Not for nothing, but unless you carry a jump kit in your POV, how much aid can you actually render at the scene of an accident?

Sticker or no sticker, I just don't see how these laws are enforceable. Without the proper supplies/equipment, all you're going to do is get in the way.

you do not need supplies to perform CPR, hold c spine or control bleeding...

DHarris52
06-17-2009, 01:35 AM
you do not need supplies to perform CPR, hold c spine or control bleeding...

...I guess you don't subscribe to the whole concept of BSI.

JPINFV
06-17-2009, 01:58 AM
I'll give you bleeding control, but unless the patient is covered in bodily fluid, then a few minutes of c-spine or compression only CPR isn't going to kill you. I'm willing to bet that money is far more dirty than the vast majority of EMS patients who aren't covered in bodily fluids.

DHarris52
06-17-2009, 03:22 PM
I'll give you bleeding control, but unless the patient is covered in bodily fluid, then a few minutes of c-spine or compression only CPR isn't going to kill you. I'm willing to bet that money is far more dirty than the vast majority of EMS patients who aren't covered in bodily fluids.

And what about personal safety?

You're telling me that if I am on my way home from a BBQ wearing a pair of shorts, sandals, and a polo, I am expected to crawl into a car littered with broken glass and twisted metal to take C-Spine because I have the duty to act?

The point that I'm trying to make is I just don't see how these duty to act "laws" are enforceable. Every situation is different and there's just too many variables to be able to follow something that is written in black and white.

KillTank
06-18-2009, 10:12 AM
And what about personal safety?

You're telling me that if I am on my way home from a BBQ wearing a pair of shorts, sandals, and a polo, I am expected to crawl into a car littered with broken glass and twisted metal to take C-Spine because I have the duty to act?

The point that I'm trying to make is I just don't see how these duty to act "laws" are enforceable. Every situation is different and there's just too many variables to be able to follow something that is written in black and white.

I agree with what you say and I do not believe in the duty to act law. Trust me If I was put in a unsafe condition I would not act. But if I am able to assist without putting myself or anyone in danger then I will.

reaper
06-18-2009, 11:00 AM
If you go through this entire thread, you will find that there is maybe two states that have duty to act laws. So most people do not have to worry about it.

The ones that have the law, are no worries. They are not enforceable laws. Stop if you feel the need or just call 911. The choice is yours and yours only!

bridgestrong
09-14-2009, 01:41 PM
Surprisingly Romania have one in place and it is more a 'law to act'. Let me contact a colleague in EMS there and see if i can acquire a copy.

Scottpre
10-29-2009, 04:19 PM
I consider my duty to act more like a "duty to notify". I always report accidents, etc that I see unless I see PD or some other emergency unit is already there. I figure making a phone only takes a second.

I have a jump bag in the trunk, but it's for SAR missions. I've used it once to splint a broken arm in a parking lot so the lady's husband could take to her to the ER.

I'll stop at an accident if no else is there and it looks like it may have injuries or is a multiple MVA. Other than that, I just call it in and continue on my merry way.

DrParasite
10-29-2009, 09:05 PM
From an email I sent to the NJDOH regarding a semi-related issue:

According to the [New Jersey] Department [of Health] attorney, the act of placing an EMT sticker on your private vehicle does not constitute the obligation to stop and render aid. Generally speaking you do not have a duty to act unless you make verbal or physical contact with someone requiring the skills of an EMT. Having said this you should contact your squad attorney for legal clarification in this area.

I hope this have been helpful.


Thomas Hendrickson, RN, MSN, EMT-B
Office of Emergency Medical Services, NJ Department of Health

PhilipM3
12-08-2009, 01:24 AM
Georgia does not have any Duty to Act laws, pertaining to an off-duty EMT.

jrbigelow
01-08-2010, 06:08 PM
Wyoming Good Samaritan Law



1-1-120.



Persons rendering emergency assistance exempt from civil liability.



(a) Any person licensed as a physician and surgeon under the laws of the state of Wyoming, or any other person, who in good faith renders emergency care or assistance without compensation at the place of an emergency or accident, is not liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions in good faith.



(b) Persons or organizations operating volunteer ambulances or rescue vehicles supported by public or private funds, staffed by unpaid volunteers, and which make no charge for services rendered during medical emergencies, and the unpaid volunteers who staff ambulances and rescue vehicles are not liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions in good faith in furnishing emergency medical services. This immunity does not apply to acts or omissions constituting gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct.





(c) Any person who provides assistance or advice without compensation other than reimbursement of out-of-pocket expenses in mitigating or attempting to mitigate the effects of an actual or threatened discharge of hazardous materials, or in preventing, cleaning up or disposing of or in attempting to prevent, clean up or dispose of any discharge of hazardous materials, is not liable for any civil damages for acts or omissions in good faith in providing the assistance or advice. This immunity does not apply to acts or omissions constituting gross negligence or willful or wanton misconduct. As used in this subsection:



(i) "Discharge" includes leakage, seepage or other release;



(ii) "Hazardous materials" includes all materials and substances which are now or hereafter designated or defined as hazardous by any state or federal law or by the regulations of any state or federal government agency.

airraid
01-15-2010, 03:05 AM
How many of you would NOT act while off-duty?

SammyGirlMedic
01-15-2010, 08:55 PM
Ohio doesn't have it. Sorry no link, only what I've learned.
I was told we do have A Duty to Act Law in Ohio, but couldn't find something on line right now. I was also told that it is "very easy to get around it" by quoting certain things such as, "The scene was unsafe," or "I had no BSI equipment."

SammyGirlMedic
01-15-2010, 08:59 PM
How many of you would NOT act while off-duty?
I would call something in, but I don't know if I'd do more? I don't carry a bag of medical equipment with me, so I don't think I'd be much more help than anyone else. If I saw someone choking, I'd do the Heimlich, but what else could I do than that?

VentMedic
01-15-2010, 09:20 PM
I was told we do have A Duty to Act Law in Ohio, but couldn't find something on line right now. I was also told that it is "very easy to get around it" by quoting certain things such as, "The scene was unsafe," or "I had no BSI equipment."

Good reads:

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=2046

http://theemtspot.com/2009/06/23/what-is-the-duty-to-act/

Unless you are compensated by your employer or covered under their insurance or you are part of a Public Safety agency (FD, PD, CO), to where you are required to respond, you have no duty to act and would not be covered if you were injured. Thus, the duty to act that is written into EMS statutes is meant for those on duty. If you are legally bound by an employer to perform as an EMT while on duty and you fail to meet that expectation, you are guilty of failing to act. That is the question right now in NYC with the two EMT dispatchers. Did they have a duty to act while in uniform but not with an "EMT" job description and while being on break? If they had not been in uniform and not working as EMTs, there is a chance nothing would ever have been said about this tragic event.

I would call something in, but I don't know if I'd do more? I don't carry a bag of medical equipment with me, so I don't think I'd be much more help than anyone else. If I saw someone choking, I'd do the Heimlich, but what else could I do than that?

You do whatever a layperson would do, provided the scene is safe, and that can be a considerable amount even if it is emotional support and ensuring rescuers get to the scene by calling 911.

fire_911medic
01-17-2010, 11:31 PM
Here it is entirely dependent on your medical director, but if you have ANY identifying things (ie in uniform, have something on your car, person identifying you with a dept - even fire as all paid fire depts are at least trained to basic level - plates on your car, etc) and other rescue personnel (not neccessarily medical) are not already on scene, you are required to stop and render aid until another rescue person has arrived. However, you are only allowed to act to the level permitted by your medical director off duty - each county has different requirements and some play better with others :glare: .

Having said that - it doesn't matter if someone knows you to be a basic, medic, if you don't identify yourself in anyway as being a trained caregiver, then you can drive on by, walk on by with no adverse action.

reaper
01-18-2010, 01:27 AM
Where is here? There is no Medical Director that can tell me what to do when off duty. If it is a state law, then we are looking for a link to it.

VentMedic
01-18-2010, 09:20 AM
as all paid fire depts are at least trained to basic level - plates on your car, etc) and other rescue personnel (not neccessarily medical) are not already on scene, you are required to stop and render aid until another rescue person has arrived. However, you are only allowed to act to the level permitted by your medical director off duty - each county has different requirements and some play better with others :glare: .


So you do have full insurance coverage off duty? Are you also considered back on the clock with call back pay?

wolfwyndd
01-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Where is here? There is no Medical Director that can tell me what to do when off duty. If it is a state law, then we are looking for a link to it.
You know, I use that exact same arguement in the non - smoking arguement. How can an employer tell me I CAN'T smoke when I'm offduty? But hey, I'm just a lowly peon. What do I know?

I was told we do have A Duty to Act Law in Ohio, but couldn't find something on line right now. I was also told that it is "very easy to get around it" by quoting certain things such as, "The scene was unsafe," or "I had no BSI equipment."
Really now? I think someone told you inaccurately. Having been a practicing FF/EMT in SW Ohio for 7 years now, I've NEVER found, or even been told / taught, a duty to act law exists in this State. Of course, new laws come in all the time and there's a few that kicked in as of the 1st of the year that I'm not familiar with. There may be a COUNTY of LOCAL jurisdiction rule, but it's not Statewide.

So you do have full insurance coverage off duty? Are you also considered back on the clock with call back pay?
Yes, as long as I'm in my own jurisdiction and I stop to render aid to someone that needs it, yes, I'm covered and 'on the clock' whether I started off on the clock or not. In a neighboring jurisdiction I'm still covered by Good Samaritan Laws.

VentMedic
01-19-2010, 02:12 PM
You know, I use that exact same arguement in the non - smoking arguement. How can an employer tell me I CAN'T smoke when I'm offduty? But hey, I'm just a lowly peon. What do I know?



Are your lungs magically better when you are at work?

You would not work for many FDs that do not want people claiming their emphysema as an occupational hazard especially if you smoke more packs of cigarettes each day than fires worked for the entire year.

Your on/off duty compensation sounds like you work for a Public Safety or your ambulance service is now recognized as such in your state.

wolfwyndd
01-20-2010, 09:09 AM
Are your lungs magically better when you are at work?
Oh, no, no, no, no. My lungs aren't magically better at work. You misunderstood (or I wasn't clear, which is also quite possible) my point. My point was that there ARE some things that an employer CAN tell you that you can't do while you're off duty. Right or wrong, that's a fact of life. Hence most services urinalysis pre - employment test. I actually quite smoking a bit over two years ago and (knock on wood) haven't picked it back up again.

Your on/off duty compensation sounds like you work for a Public Safety or your ambulance service is now recognized as such in your state.
Yes, you are correct. Although I am called a 'volunteer' I think our legal status is part time - on call . . . . . . or, something like that. IE, we get 10.00 per call. So, no call, no compensation. At least at the ambulance company. The fire department I work for is strictly volunteer. We have NO compensated members. Not even our Chief. The fire and EMS is COMPLETELY separate in our area of SW Ohio.

okelley
01-22-2010, 06:25 AM
GA doesn't have a duty to act when your off duty.

Scubamedic
04-23-2010, 01:06 AM
I am trying to find the exact statute on that on but right now it stands as ONLY for employees of a governmental agency. It may not hold true for employees of private companies.

In the meantime here's another discussion on that:

http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/article.jsp?pubId=1&id=2046

Where Duty Ends: The Perils & Pitfalls of Off-Duty Response

Updated: July 8th, 2008 05:26 PM EDT
From the September 2004 Issue (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1&issueId=15) of Emergency Medical Services (http://www.emsresponder.com/publication/pub.jsp?pubId=1)


Thanks for the info in the links. I found this and have been searching the internet. From the FLDOT to the FL-DEMS and I have had this argument with instructors since I was a Volunteer EMS First Responder. From what I can find:

For the professional rescuer the duty to act is generally inherent to employment. If you are a trained medical professional and you are acting with an expectation of compensation you have a duty to act appropriately and within the scope of your training when called to assist with an emergency situation.

Let’s put that in plain English. If your are on the clock and receiving pay for your service, you have a duty to respond to emergencies and provide appropriate rescue and care. The rescue and care you provide has to be in accordance with your training. It also has to be reasonable and within your scope of practice.


Unless I see someone in threat of emminet loss of life or great bodily harm, I will usually drive over to the MVA and just ask, Hey, is anybody hurt? I do not have light or stickers or anything on my car that says I am ems.

I, like most of us want to help, but sometime helping is being a direct line over 911 to the enroute medics, providing as much info so they will be prepared. Like reaper said, It's really your choice.

The one thing about florida EMS law in this instance, once you touch a patient to render ems care and you are waiting for units to arrive, you are there till care can be transfered, you cannot leave the Pt or scene. So if you take C-spine, there you are till back up arrives.

AVPU
06-08-2010, 08:29 PM
Does anyone know if WA state has a duty to act (for off-duty medics)? I've gone through this whole thread and haven't seen anything on WA. I've also tried to research it online and couldn't find much. Thanks.

EMT012
06-09-2010, 03:17 AM
I'm from Washington State too, and I was unable to find a law with regards to off-duty EMT's providing care. When I took my EMT class my instructor mentioned a law in the books which stated "if your affiliated with an agency, you must respond even if your off-duty to assist." In any event you can always respond under the "Good Sumaritian Law" and provide YOUR scope of practice... (I've done it, and haven't had any problems) B)


EMT-B, CPR/AED/First Aid Instructor:

AVPU
06-09-2010, 01:11 PM
Interesting. I finally asked my EMT instructor last night (I took the class last year). According to him, WA has *no* off-duty duty to act. Anyone know more that wants to comment?

EMT012
06-10-2010, 09:45 PM
I'm from Washington State too, and I was unable to find a law with regards to off-duty EMT's providing care. When I took my EMT class my instructor mentioned a law in the books which stated "if your affiliated with an agency, you must respond even if your off-duty to assist." In any event you can always respond under the "Good Sumaritian Law" and provide YOUR scope of practice... (I've done it, and haven't had any problems) B)


EMT-B, CPR/AED/First Aid Instructor:

Probably should clear that up, my instructor said that if you come across let's say an accident and your agency responds (EMS that is) than your suppose to stop and assist, it's more of a courtesy aid than anything else. Otherwise in WA Law, there isn't an actual "law" that I could find, but why would you Not stop and assist, especially if your the only licensed responder?

EMT-B, CPR/AED/First Aid Instructor

wijjiam
07-02-2010, 05:30 AM
WA does not when off duty

MAfire/ems
08-11-2010, 06:39 PM
I just finished the ethics/legal section of my basic refresher last week and this was actually a big section of it because it is so widely misunderstood. MA does have a duty to act, on duty or off duty, if you can be identified as police fire or ems you can be held accountable because in MA any police and fire are a minimum of first responder. This is ONLY true if there are no other services already on scene. MA does also have a Good Samaritan Law but any of the above do not fall under this Law because you have a higher level of medical training. The Good Samaritan Law only covers "civilians" that stop and attempt to help.

My instructor has the laws and such if anyone is really interested. Just trying to pass on some updated info.

jjesusfreak01
08-11-2010, 08:17 PM
Gotta love it when states decide that GS laws only cover people who don't have a clue what they are doing...

bstone
08-11-2010, 08:48 PM
I just finished the ethics/legal section of my basic refresher last week and this was actually a big section of it because it is so widely misunderstood. MA does have a duty to act, on duty or off duty, if you can be identified as police fire or ems you can be held accountable because in MA any police and fire are a minimum of first responder. This is ONLY true if there are no other services already on scene. MA does also have a Good Samaritan Law but any of the above do not fall under this Law because you have a higher level of medical training. The Good Samaritan Law only covers "civilians" that stop and attempt to help.

My instructor has the laws and such if anyone is really interested. Just trying to pass on some updated info.

Interesting. Do you know which statute it is?

bryncvp
09-07-2010, 09:35 PM
Does anyone know if Rhode Island has a Duty to Act law? I cant seem to find it anywhere.

589661
09-23-2010, 09:18 PM
I just got out of EMT school in NJ and in medical legal we were tought there is no legal obligation to act. We were told this goes to the extent of if we were driving back from the hospital and passed a bad car accident not in our town then we still had no duty to act even in an ambulance. The only exception is if you have interaction with the victim because after that they said it is considered Pt Abandonment.

I feel that even if there is not a legal duty to act there is still a moral duty to act and i would stop for anything if something were to occure in my presence.

BLSBoy
09-23-2010, 09:30 PM
I just got out of EMT school in NJ and in medical legal we were tought there is no legal obligation to act. We were told this goes to the extent of if we were driving back from the hospital and passed a bad car accident not in our town then we still had no duty to act even in an ambulance. The only exception is if you have interaction with the victim because after that they said it is considered Pt Abandonment.

I feel that even if there is not a legal duty to act there is still a moral duty to act and i would stop for anything if something were to occure in my presence.

Who was your course instructor?
GO GET A REFUND!

NJ has a very wacktastic view of the law, and if you are certified, you MUST provide aid. However, you can get away with no providing any if you are intoxicated, don't have BSI, etc.
Go ahead and drive by an accident. People LOVE to beyotch, and you will get called out.

589661
09-23-2010, 09:32 PM
It was MONOC who was the provider of the class, and the MONOC lawyer was the one who told us this, in fact i have it all recorded on tape. (used to study for test)

basictrent
09-23-2010, 09:32 PM
there is no duty to act in texas

BLSBoy
09-23-2010, 09:33 PM
It was MONOC who was the provider of the class, and the MONOC lawyer was the one who told us this, in fact i have it all recorded on tape. (used to study for test)

Nuff said. :rolleyes:

Can't spell MONOC without O NO!!

589661
09-23-2010, 09:34 PM
LOL thats so funny. What is the actual law in NJ so i am not ignorant to the facts?

BLSBoy
09-23-2010, 09:36 PM
Doing some research on it now.

I wouldn't trust an agency that pulls medic trucks and depends on M/A MICUs that are already bust, and over 30 miles away to provide ALS care to the citizens it serves.

BLSBoy
09-23-2010, 09:55 PM
Down to page 9.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:qaUqnNsLh8kJ:web.doh.state.nj.us/apps2/documents/bc/hcab_notice_of_adoption_njac840_121709.pdf+new+jer sey+duty+to+act+ems&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgK3CXiKL_i7ufxvaLe7w8m5caHI9IrIdzJxHda YUOU3HOuQOpPeP82Cnnvv2QAvxtIpGXxEYUGlJbFCMbbh29rrx ZbXdzUSR64QzvgQ0nugP0uXh4lOqD6aW4UvYp6T_cNds8_&sig=AHIEtbTEJD2nHiGWj4wzd2qtqBTmc7svyw

589661
09-23-2010, 10:04 PM
thats very interesting. does this mean when your on duty returning from the hospital not in your coverage zone?

BLSBoy
09-23-2010, 10:06 PM
If you are paid, from the moment you clock in.
Volly, I would state that anytime you are in an anbulance, the building, or in a piece of uniform.
Your mileage may vary. I advise contacting a lawyer.

EMDispatch
09-29-2010, 04:31 PM
I figured this is appropriate to post here since it hasn't been posted yet. In Pennsylvania BLS and ALS providers aren't covered under the Medical good Samaritan civil immunity, but they are covered under Nonmedical good Samaritan civil immunity.

8332. Nonmedical Good Samaritan civil immunity

(a) General rule.--Any person who renders emergency care, first aid or rescue at the scene of an emergency, or moves the person receiving such care, first aid and rescue to a hospital or other place of medical care, shall not be liable to such person for any civil damages as a result of any acts or omissions in rendering the emergency care, first aid or rescue, or moving the person receiving the same to a hospital or other place of medical care, except any acts or omissions intentionally designed to harm or any grossly negligent acts or omissions which result in harm to the person receiving the emergency care, first aid or rescue or being moved to a hospital or other place of medical care.

b) Exceptions.--
1. This section shall not relieve a driver of an ambulance or other emergency or rescue vehicle from liability arising from operation or use of such vehicle
2. In order for any person to receive the benefit of the exemption from civil liability provided for in subsection (a), he shall be, at the time of rendering the emergency care, first aid or rescue or moving the person receiving emergency care, first aid or rescue to a hospital or other place of medical care, the holder of a current certificate evidencing the successful completion of a course in first aid, advanced life saving or basic life support sponsored by the American National Red Cross or the American Heart Association or an equivalent course of instruction approved by the Department of Health in consultation with a technical committee of the Pennsylvania Emergency Health Services Council and must be performing techniques and employing procedures consistent with the nature and level of the training for which the certificate has been issued.

frostbiteEMT
10-20-2010, 05:09 AM
In TN, when we are off-duty, we do not have a duty to act unless we TOUCH the patient. However, being off-duty in Tennessee means that we cannot be receiving compensation for our time. Ergo, if you are working at walmart and have an active EMT-IV license and a person was to fall out in front of you right after you clocked in to work, then at that point you have a duty to act. In other words, you DO NOT have the be receiving compensation as an EMT, just receiving compensation period.

jjesusfreak01
10-20-2010, 02:35 PM
In TN, when we are off-duty, we do not have a duty to act unless we TOUCH the patient. However, being off-duty in Tennessee means that we cannot be receiving compensation for our time. Ergo, if you are working at walmart and have an active EMT-IV license and a person was to fall out in front of you right after you clocked in to work, then at that point you have a duty to act. In other words, you DO NOT have the be receiving compensation as an EMT, just receiving compensation period.

You sure that's the way it's worded, because I would be willing to bet giving medical care at an EMT level is probably totally against Walmart policy? In this case, your compensation would be totally unconnected with your current actions, even to the point of putting your job at stake.

TransportJockey
10-20-2010, 03:07 PM
You sure that's the way it's worded, because I would be willing to bet giving medical care at an EMT level is probably totally against Walmart policy? In this case, your compensation would be totally unconnected with your current actions, even to the point of putting your job at stake.

Don't let anyone know you're an EMT and don't help anyone. Problem solved :) I sure would never get involved in a medical emergency if I was working someplace like WM. Most I'd do is call 911

frostbiteEMT
10-20-2010, 11:52 PM
You sure that's the way it's worded, because I would be willing to bet giving medical care at an EMT level is probably totally against Walmart policy? In this case, your compensation would be totally unconnected with your current actions, even to the point of putting your job at stake.

Pretty sure about it. Even asked my wife's boss to take a look at it as a hypothetical situation (my wife is a paralegal) and that is the way he said the law reads. You can only render care to a first responder level, unless you have protocols that cover you (don't break out those large bore IVs now, even though it would be fun lol). Anyways, I had a situation where I was working a part time gig at walmart and had someone DFO in front of me, and I rendered assistance till the truck got there. I worked full time for that service though. Never had a problem with WM griping about it.

jjesusfreak01
10-21-2010, 12:56 AM
Don't let anyone know you're an EMT and don't help anyone. Problem solved :) I sure would never get involved in a medical emergency if I was working someplace like WM. Most I'd do is call 911

Yeah JT, you have made it quite clear you would never under any circumstance stop to help someone off duty...we get it.

rescue329
11-22-2010, 12:45 AM
I have looked and asked several people before, in Alabama if you advertise yourself as a provider (the super hero volunteer stickers on vehicles) you have a duty but beyond that no, truthfully if im not get paid im not getting involved unless there are some circumstances that i feel are warranted

westcoastmedic
11-24-2010, 01:42 PM
I've read quite a few of these posts regarding the Duty to Act Laws and have come to the following conclusion... Whether or not you are protected by any sort of laws, you should always remember why you started in this profession (at least most of you). It was for the satisfaction of getting to help someone, to save a life, or just make a positive difference in someone's life. It sure wasn't to make millions otherwise you would have joined the MLB. If it was one of your family members lying on the side of the highway wouldn’t you hope that if an EMS provider randomly driving by would render care? Remember the "Golden Hour of Survival"? It starts with early access. Regardless of being on or off duty if you never act then you will never be able to achieve what you joined this profession for.

reaper
11-24-2010, 10:22 PM
I've read quite a few of these posts regarding the Duty to Act Laws and have come to the following conclusion... Whether or not you are protected by any sort of laws, you should always remember why you started in this profession (at least most of you). It was for the satisfaction of getting to help someone, to save a life, or just make a positive difference in someone's life. It sure wasn't to make millions otherwise you would have joined the MLB. If it was one of your family members lying on the side of the highway wouldn’t you hope that if an EMS provider randomly driving by would render care? Remember the "Golden Hour of Survival"? It starts with early access. Regardless of being on or off duty if you never act then you will never be able to achieve what you joined this profession for.

The "Golden Hour" is a myth and joke. I still have a family to go home to. The minimal help I can provide to someone, without equipment, is not worth risking my life for. Most accident scenes are not safe to be on. That is why you have large trucks to block scenes! A dead provider cannot help anyone!

westcoastmedic
11-25-2010, 01:33 AM
Well it is obvious that your training “just enough" is also an accurate assessment of your EMS knowledge. As a healthcare provider safety is always the number one priority and on that note no one is saying to put yourself at risk while providing care and any experienced healthcare provider knows that time is of the utmost importance in a critical situation. An example for those less understanding of where I’m going with this is a stroke patient. It is a fact that there is a time limit in which thrombolytics can be given to stroke patients, hence every minute counts. Maybe with such a low level of training not rendering care is best for both parties in your case.

reaper
11-25-2010, 02:28 AM
You are saying that we should stop at every accident scene on a highway to render care. No they should not. The majority of scenes are unsafe and will continue to be even after EMS and Fire are on scene. But they have the correct tools to provide the safest scene they can.

Let me give you a hint! My knowledge, experience and time in this field, is greatly more then yours. I can guarantee it!

If you are going to give a time sensitive example, I would have expected you to use a trauma, not a stroke. A CVA is time sensitive, but not in minutes. I do not know how behind they are out there, but I have a 4.5 hour window for a stroke pt to receive thrombolytics. That is an average. One hospital is using multiple treatments that can extend that window to 16 hours. So next time pick something that is a little more time sensitive. Like a Pelvic fx or a disected Aorta. Then minutes would count.

Anything where minutes count in an MVC, I as a provider with no equipment or ambulance, can do nothing to make a difference for that pt. I do stop at some scenes, if they are safe. But I pass a lot up. My goal whether on or off duty is to come home to my family.

The one thing you have right in your original post, is the fear of litigation. New providers are scared to death of something that rarely happens. It is instilled in them by stupid teachers, most that have no experience to give.

westcoastmedic
11-25-2010, 03:01 AM
I guess you cant' teach an old dog new tricks... Nobody is saying to go out there and play Ricky Rescue. Everybody has a family that they want to make it home to, you surprisingly aren't the only one.

Sasha
11-25-2010, 04:15 PM
Well it is obvious that your training “just enough" is also an accurate assessment of your EMS knowledge. As a healthcare provider safety is always the number one priority and on that note no one is saying to put yourself at risk while providing care and any experienced healthcare provider knows that time is of the utmost importance in a critical situation. An example for those less understanding of where I’m going with this is a stroke patient. It is a fact that there is a time limit in which thrombolytics can be given to stroke patients, hence every minute counts. Maybe with such a low level of training not rendering care is best for both parties in your case.

For your information, reaper has been a paramedic for years. He doesn't have "such a low level" of training.

You can teach an old dog new tricks, but you can't teach an old dog outdated myths and legends.

I am as much of a bleeding heart as any, ask anyone on this forum. I got into EMS not only because I enjoy medicine but because I have a compulsion to help people. But I'm smart enough to know that even with big blinking trucks and bright orange cones and traffic vests you can still be killed on the side of the road. I also know that the minute I am killed I can no longer help anyone, infact I make the situation worse by adding to the patient count and requiring more resources.

I also have an obligation to my family to come home every night, as does reaper. And as reaper is MY family, I do care if he comes home every night and would be very pissed at him if he cost me my family for some person who is going to die anyway. (although I hear there is a nice life insurance policy... :P)

If you have a situation where minutes count, guess what? They're dead anyway. Don't pull the c-spine BS, because that's been proven to be a myth too. Immobilization has been proven to be more harmful than good.

If you're such a knowledgeable and experienced medic, what did they teach you the very first day in EMT school? Your safety is MOST important.

C.T.E.M.R.
11-25-2010, 04:25 PM
.

If you're such a knowledgeable and experienced medic, what did they teach you the very first day in EMT school? Your safety is MOST important.

Even certs under EMT, Scene safety is one of the most important terms drilled into our heads. Seriously, unless i have LE or some traffic control on scene, i don't consider it safe, unless we have a patient with an immediate life threat. I hate to sound cruel, but my safety comes first.

Sasha
11-25-2010, 04:28 PM
Even certs under EMT, Scene safety is one of the most important terms drilled into our heads. Seriously, unless i have LE or some traffic control on scene, i don't consider it safe, unless we have a patient with an immediate life threat. I hate to sound cruel, but my safety comes first.

Exactly. Our lives aren't somehow less important because we have a passion for EMS. We are not more expendable. We still have people who will love and miss us if we get ourselves killed for a stranger who dies anyway.

Someone who is already hurt or injured is not worth risking my life for on a dangerous traffic scene.

westcoastmedic
11-26-2010, 04:19 PM
Once again for the slower ones...Scene safety and your own safety is every providers #1 priority!!! Nobody is saying to put your own life at risk, when did I say to do that? Or when did I say that it is a good to respond to a mvc w/out the proper equipment? Who doesn't want to make it home to their families? Please read each entry through its entirety before posting fruitless comments.

Sasha
11-26-2010, 08:38 PM
I've read the entire post. I've read where you talked down to reaper because he doesn't agree to stopping at every scene.

samiam
11-28-2010, 10:22 AM
In Michigan, EMT's Paramedics ect have no duty to act and are also covered under good Samaritan laws ON duty and OFF Duty.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/%28S%281sxdp3zn0sras5551zmplwyo%29%29/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-333-20965&query=on&highlight=immunity%20AND%20from%20AND%20liability

bigmoosewi
12-05-2010, 10:59 AM
WI does NOT have a duty of act when you are off duty. In fact, if you are on a transfer and are on your way back to your home area in your ambulance and you come on a accident, you still do NOT have a duty to act. Legally that is. Now obviously there may be moral issues but there is no duty to act. In WI you only have a duty to act when you are dispatched to a call.

MS Medic
12-05-2010, 08:25 PM
Mississippi does not.

HNM Medical
01-10-2011, 10:16 AM
In the state of Florida No. If there is one, than I am not aware of it

EMSDude54343
03-13-2011, 01:20 AM
In the state of Florida No. If there is one, than I am not aware of it

there isnt one in florida, so i have been told by everyone i work for/with, have searched and havent found anything where it says we are. however we are covered under the good samaritan law (cannot be held liable) if we are off duty and decide to render aide.


i have been told that if we are in uniform than we do have a duty to act, dunno if i was told that because of law, or agency rules. plus it would look bad if while in uniform, but off duty, someone saw you go the other way or refuse to help

ffemt8978
04-29-2011, 10:02 PM
First post in the thread is now updated with links explaining where the info came from. I will continue to update this as members post more links.

On a side note, in reviewing this entire thread for the update, I noticed that several people are confusing Good Samaritan laws with a Duty to Act while off duty.

Stop_fighting_my_tube!
07-26-2011, 04:53 PM
NO it does not

maves75
07-28-2011, 03:54 PM
This is really great! I've always wanted to get into the EMT field, have some friends who have done it, but I chose casting. Right now I am casting contestants for Sing If You Can. The show is a singing show in which the contestant is being distracted while singing. Any EMT's out there who sing message me!
I might go back to school to do the EMT training, I really am interested in the field.

Milla3P
10-17-2011, 03:52 PM
Rhode Island Code - § 11-56-1

"TITLE 11
Criminal Offenses

CHAPTER 11-56
Duty to Render Assistance

SECTION 11-56-1


§ 11-56-1 Duty to assist. – Any person at the scene of an emergency who knows that another person is exposed to, or has suffered, grave physical harm shall, to the extent that he or she can do so without danger or peril to himself or herself or to others, give reasonable assistance to the exposed person. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a petty misdemeanor and shall be subject to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six (6) months, or by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500), or both."

http://www.rilin.state.ri.us/statutes/title11/11-56/11-56-1.HTM

So, In theory RI does, but i'm sure there are ways around it...

ArcticKat
10-17-2011, 04:05 PM
to the extent that he or she can do so without danger or peril to himself or herself or to others,

So, In theory RI does, but i'm sure there are ways around it...

And a lack of appropriate PPE could be considered a danger.

Milla3P
10-17-2011, 04:07 PM
And a lack of appropriate PPE could be considered a danger.

So could getting out of your car... Or bed.

ArcticKat
10-17-2011, 05:32 PM
Apparently not by you though. You must save your boss a Whack of money on gloves.

tstiefel
10-18-2011, 09:38 PM
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=246-976-182

tstiefel
10-18-2011, 09:40 PM
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/WAC/default.aspx?cite=246-976-182

best I could come up with at short notice. will keep looking and ask the chief that taught our class

Aprz
11-30-2011, 06:24 PM
Anyone know if Alameda County (in California) changed? It's from 2008, the link is dead, and now that we have state cards, I tried looking on both ALCO EMS and CCR, and couldn't find anything.

TheMowingMonk
12-01-2011, 02:11 AM
As far as I am aware California does not have a duty to act law, at least when you are off duty.

Aprz
12-06-2011, 01:48 AM
As far as I am aware California does not have a duty to act law, at least when you are off duty.
That's what I think, but I can't find anything on it except what was originally posted here (including when Googled).

spiffy
12-07-2011, 03:20 PM
I just moved to AZ in may, and have to take the BLS refresher course to become state licensed (thank god it's not like CA where you are county licensed, what a pain that was). Not that I wouldn't act anyways, but just wanted to know the law on it. I know in North Carolina yes you do have to act when you are off duty (sorry, I don't know the website for that, but I watched my brother just go through the paramedic course there and it's for sure) and in CA you don't. Anyone know about AZ?

spiffy
12-07-2011, 03:28 PM
Once again for the slower ones...Scene safety and your own safety is every providers #1 priority!!! Nobody is saying to put your own life at risk, when did I say to do that? Or when did I say that it is a good to respond to a mvc w/out the proper equipment? Who doesn't want to make it home to their families? Please read each entry through its entirety before posting fruitless comments.

I always was amused at the Duty To Act part for off duty. Granted, yes I have my hands which can help hold a flashlight or something mundane like that. But I wouldn't touch anything with out a pair of gloves (Scene Safe, PPE! Drilled into our heads starting on the first day of classes)

If there was a way I could help without hindering either myself, or others then yes I'd stop. But honestly? Chances of that are so far and few between. Granted, I'd help a choking victim, or a heart attack victim.

Gon8822
03-28-2012, 06:44 PM
my instructor say only if anyone see u and he know that u are a EMT than u have to act if not u only have to live with your guild on that ..

Tigger
03-28-2012, 07:33 PM
my instructor say only if anyone see u and he know that u are a EMT than u have to act if not u only have to live with your guild on that ..

First of all I, and most others I'd assume, have no idea what you are saying. The above sentence makes close to zero sense. But that's neither here nor there.

What is here and there is that we do not know which state you are in nor have you bothered to cite your assertion, as requested in the beginning of this thread. Not everything your instructor says is true.

MochaRaf
04-27-2012, 12:46 AM
As far as New Jersey is concerned, abriggs is absolutely correct with a single exception.

We do not have a duty to act if we are off duty, even if we are in uniform. The only exception to this rule is if you obtained a speciality license plate from the state that identifies you as an "EMT" or "EMT-P".

P.S. I forgot to mention that this exception only applies if you are in your vehicle and witness an emergency. If you are nowhere near your car and witness something you once again do not have a duty to act.

albertaEMS
04-29-2012, 03:51 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Quebec the only Canadian province with a duty to act law? Or does that only apply to volunteer first aiders, not EMS?

Medic Tim
04-29-2012, 04:25 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Quebec the only Canadian province with a duty to act law? Or does that only apply to volunteer first aiders, not EMS?

In nb we have a duty to act on and off duty. We are considered medics 24/7

Scott33
04-29-2012, 10:33 AM
Could you provide a reference for the above please.

EpiEMS
04-29-2012, 10:49 AM
In nb we have a duty to act on and off duty. We are considered medics 24/7

Does that mean you can perform ALS interventions wherever/whenever?

pinecreekems
05-07-2012, 08:32 PM
PA does not recognize the Good Samaritan Act. The Duty to Act applies when conducting your scope of practice when working only. Any actions taken while tending to the sick or injured, the liability falls on the actor(EMT). There is no medical command provided nor is there medical direction when following protocols for the actor(EMT) not performing their duties while working for their perspective employer.

Medic Tim
05-07-2012, 10:28 PM
Does that mean you can perform ALS interventions wherever/whenever?
We own our skill set/scope of practice.

We are required to have liability/malpractice insurance to register with our Paramedic association.
That said when off duty there isn't much skills wise we can do. unless you are a super whacker and carry everything. I don't know of anyone who carries more than a basic first aid kit in their car.

carbs24
06-16-2012, 02:04 AM
this is good to know

AzValley
04-01-2013, 11:50 AM
Anyone know what is is in Arizona? Can't seem to find it.

dkelley5
04-25-2013, 12:53 AM
Alabama has a duty to act. However you are protected under alabama law by the good sam law if you stay within your scope and acted in good faith

Dre
05-07-2013, 02:41 PM
As far as New Jersey is concerned, abriggs is absolutely correct with a single exception.

We do not have a duty to act if we are off duty, even if we are in uniform. The only exception to this rule is if you obtained a speciality license plate from the state that identifies you as an "EMT" or "EMT-P".

P.S. I forgot to mention that this exception only applies if you are in your vehicle and witness an emergency. If you are nowhere near your car and witness something you once again do not have a duty to act.

If you advertise you are an EMT, you do not have to act. Even if you do have EMT plates. Why, is it safe for you to control the scene? Plus, you are under the insurance of your company or ambulance squad. If you act on your own, you are at will to your pocket. I would suggest that you at least call 9-1-1. The police can pull you over, but you do not have to help if your safety is a constant concern. At no time should any EMT step out on a highway and help. It is a major safety concern!

I have EMT Plates and I at least call 9-1-1 and check if anyone is hurt. That is all I do.

tjsnc
06-01-2013, 07:50 AM
No. Good Samaritan Law applies only, which addresses ANY person...

Clipper1
06-01-2013, 11:13 AM
As far as New Jersey is concerned, abriggs is absolutely correct with a single exception.

We do not have a duty to act if we are off duty, even if we are in uniform. The only exception to this rule is if you obtained a speciality license plate from the state that identifies you as an "EMT" or "EMT-P".

P.S. I forgot to mention that this exception only applies if you are in your vehicle and witness an emergency. If you are nowhere near your car and witness something you once again do not have a duty to act.

What if your mother is driving your car? How do they know if the "EMT" pertains to you or her?

There is also a difference in specialty plates. One is obtained through formal means to show your affiliation and comes with a lot of requirements.

The other is a fun plate which just about anyone can purchase to show support with a small part of the fees going to that organization. Many states have EMS plates for just about anyone to purchase as a way of supporting EMS.

Florida was the easiest to look up. This state does not have a front plate so you can put whatever on the front of your car. But, if you put an official plate you do have some special considerations.

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2012/320.0898

Regular fun plates:

http://myfloridaspecialtyplate.com/gallery.html


New Jersey:
ftp://www.njleg.state.nj.us/20042005/A0500/120_I1.PDF

New Jersey also has many other specialty plates.
http://statutes.laws.com/new-jersey/title-39/section-39-3

But, in all of the links for application did it say anything about a duty to act. Is this a department thing and are you covered by your department or acting as a member of your department when responding? What if you are in another county? Do you allow anyone else to drive your car? Does your company pay for the license plate and sign on your insurance? Does it restrict you from drinking alcohol while off duty? If you are told you have a duty to act when not on duty, I would get a copy of that "order" and carry it in your car next to your insurance verification. Someone will need to be held accountable. You can say "duty to act" but if you are not clear about what your employer means, the courts will probably not rule in your favor and you may have over stepped the limits of the Good Sam law or the extension given to EMS providers which might have protected you.

Duty to act is also a broad term and just calling 911 can usually satisfy that in most places especially if conditions are unsafe. People in other industries and even lay people have a "duty to act" as long as it does not jeopardize their own safety and again just calling 911 can suffice in some situations. A few states did make this law for all to have some type of duty to act in an emergency. This came about after a couple of highly publicized acts of violence against someone and where no one did anything to assist...not even calling 911.

This article might clear up a few misconceptions about duty to act.

http://theemtspot.com/2009/06/23/what-is-the-duty-to-act/

If you have questions about your "duty to act" per your agency, I suggest you contact the attorney for that company if your immediate supervisors can not give you the written policy. You can also contact the state EMS office but I doubt if the state will extend a "duty to act" if you are not employed by EMS. Thousands of people hold EMT certs and many do not work for EMS.

Genaio
06-12-2013, 02:08 AM
While Wisconsin doesn't have Duty to Act, our Good Samaritan Law DOES cover medical professionals who provide emergent care, as long as they aren't being compensated. The law was specifically written to encourage off duty medical personnel to render aid without fear of civil liability, then later on it was changed to encompass everyone.

Source: Wisconsin's Good Samaritan Law (http://johndimotto.blogspot.com/2012/10/wisconsins-good-samaritan-law.html)

9D4
09-25-2013, 09:04 PM
Arizona does not have a Duty to Act law.
However, I was told off duty Phoenix firefighters have to render aid (and are compensated for it), but I'm not sure if any other municipalities have a similar rule.

KirkAndrzejewski
10-17-2013, 07:23 AM
So I'm sure this is probably a stupid question, but I live in Michigan, so even though I'm not obligated to act while off duty, would I get reprimanded for acting off duty? Is it a bad idea to assist if I'm not obligated, could this cause legal troubles against me?

RebelAngel
01-15-2014, 09:06 PM
Look into Good Samaritan Laws for your state.

So I'm sure this is probably a stupid question, but I live in Michigan, so even though I'm not obligated to act while off duty, would I get reprimanded for acting off duty? Is it a bad idea to assist if I'm not obligated, could this cause legal troubles against me?

UnkiEMT
01-24-2014, 11:15 PM
From what I remember of that lecture in class, if you are in uniform (off duty or not) you have a duty to act. Otherwise you do not if off-duty
Out here in NM at least

I know this is rather late to the party, but I'd like to clarify this.

I reciprocitied into New Mexico, so a whole bunch of stuff about New Mexico specific laws I didn't learn in school, So I started asking co-workers, and I got a number of conflicting answers. So I went to the EMS bureau and asked them, this is the answer I got:

You have a duty to act if you are advertising yourself as an EMT. For example: If you're in uniform, if you have a star of life pin on your cloths or sticker on your car, or if you have EMT plates on your car. Otherwise no.

They did go on to say that they couldn't recall anyone ever being brought up for not stopping, though.

As an aside, I think I have an ethical duty to act, even if I don't have a legal one...though trying to work a call when you don't have any equipment is kinda humbling...I rolled across a code while I was in my POV...I got CPR started but I'd never realized how dependent I was on my rig full of toys.

pdxems
02-28-2014, 02:51 AM
thanks for the info

TransportJockey
02-28-2014, 03:07 AM
I know this is rather late to the party, but I'd like to clarify this.

I reciprocitied into New Mexico, so a whole bunch of stuff about New Mexico specific laws I didn't learn in school, So I started asking co-workers, and I got a number of conflicting answers. So I went to the EMS bureau and asked them, this is the answer I got:

You have a duty to act if you are advertising yourself as an EMT. For example: If you're in uniform, if you have a star of life pin on your cloths or sticker on your car, or if you have EMT plates on your car. Otherwise no.

They did go on to say that they couldn't recall anyone ever being brought up for not stopping, though.

As an aside, I think I have an ethical duty to act, even if I don't have a legal one...though trying to work a call when you don't have any equipment is kinda humbling...I rolled across a code while I was in my POV...I got CPR started but I'd never realized how dependent I was on my rig full of toys.

That is very true. The whole vehicle thing is a hard to prove thing simply because a non certified person might be driving the vehicle with EMT plates on it. I think that's why no one has ever been hit for it

m1a1h
03-18-2014, 03:07 AM
thats very interesting.

GoldcrossEMTbasic
03-18-2014, 10:48 AM
I went to church last saturday, and I had a 49 year old female PT who went into a syncopal episode. And I am a EMT-B and Licensed for the state of Minnesota! and I of course rendered aid to the PT. But if I did not. Could I be held liable for abandonment if I did not help the PT?:unsure:

Medic Tim
03-18-2014, 01:24 PM
I went to church last saturday, and I had a 49 year old female PT who went into a syncopal episode. And I am a EMT-B and Licensed for the state of Minnesota! and I of course rendered aid to the PT. But if I did not. Could I be held liable for abandonment if I did not help the PT?:unsure:


No*


Some states have clauses where if you are identified you do( so I have read here)

Household6
03-18-2014, 01:31 PM
I went to church last saturday, and I had a 49 year old female PT who went into a syncopal episode. And I am a EMT-B and Licensed for the state of Minnesota! and I of course rendered aid to the PT. But if I did not. Could I be held liable for abandonment if I did not help the PT?:unsure:

Nope. Abandonment means you begin care then stop providing care against the patient's wishes.. Didn't you go over that in EMT class?

GoldcrossEMTbasic
03-18-2014, 01:42 PM
Yes

epipusher
03-18-2014, 10:36 PM
Yes

How would someone prove the person was certified?

Tunamate
07-14-2014, 09:18 AM
No sure if this is specific to any country of region?

In South Africa as a "qualified practitioner" you have a legal duty and obligation to assist in an emergency regardless of whether you are on duty or not.

http://www.hpcsa.co.za/Uploads/editor/UserFiles/downloads/legislations/acts/nati_heal_act_61_2003.pdf

http://www.hpcsa.co.za/Uploads/editor/UserFiles/downloads/legislations/acts/health_professions_ct_56_1974.pdf

http://www.hpcsa.co.za/Uploads/editor/UserFiles/downloads/conduct_ethics/rules/generic_ethical_rules/booklet_1_guidelines_good_prac.pdf

rabidrider
07-25-2014, 11:00 AM
I live in Florida and this question came up a few times in my EMT class and again last night in my Medic class. From what the instructor (who is a retiring rescue LT for alachua county fire rescue) stated "Florida does not actually have a duty to act unless you are on the job. Once you are on the clock it dont matter if the person called for help or not you have a duty to act. Also in the case of say a hurricane and you get deployed to another area we get paid the entire time we are in that area. So even though you might be technically off duty to rest since you are still on the clock you have a duty to act. If just going home from your normal shift and there is a accident you do not have to stop (no duty to act) but if you stop to even ask if they are ok now patient abandonment comes into play." Now he also advised that if you see a crash on your way home and dont want to help he strongly advised not to even call 911. Just keep going as if you never seen it. As cold hearted as it sounds its to cover your ass because there is a gray area as far as he was concerned as calling 911 could one day (with a good lawyer) be considered patient abandonment as you did start patient care by calling for help or as it could be defined as backup and since you most likely used your cell phone they can trace it back to you.

LACoGurneyjockey
07-25-2014, 11:57 AM
If just going home from your normal shift and there is a accident you do not have to stop (no duty to act) but if you stop to even ask if they are ok now patient abandonment comes into play." Now he also advised that if you see a crash on your way home and dont want to help he strongly advised not to even call 911. Just keep going as if you never seen it. As cold hearted as it sounds its to cover your ass because there is a gray area as far as he was concerned as calling 911 could one day (with a good lawyer) be considered patient abandonment as you did start patient care by calling for help or as it could be defined as backup and since you most likely used your cell phone they can trace it back to you.

Must resist the urge to smack a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: ... meh, why not.
Why in the world would you not call 911? Are you that afraid of a lawsuit, that you would rather drive past a wreck and hope some other helpless bystander manages to give a decent description? Google the bystander effect.
Getting sued for calling 911? That is complete and utter bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. Cover your ass? Really? Are you even remotely aware of the laws in your state, or do you just trust this "rescue LT" blindly. Maybe try and find an EMT instructor with an actual interest in helping people even when they're not on fire. Read back over this thread, just for a minute, and edumacate yurself. You call 911, you do not identify yourself (Im bubba and I have my national registry card, wanna see it Ms dispatcher?), and you give an accurate description of the location.
I have more to say, but I'll leave room for others, err, constructive feedback.
Did you ask your badass Rescue Life-Saver fire truck driving ultimate super hero of an instructor what you should do if you pass a structure fire? Im willing to be there's a slightly different answer...

Medic Tim
07-25-2014, 12:02 PM
I live in Florida and this question came up a few times in my EMT class and again last night in my Medic class. From what the instructor (who is a retiring rescue LT for alachua county fire rescue) stated "Florida does not actually have a duty to act unless you are on the job. Once you are on the clock it dont matter if the person called for help or not you have a duty to act. Also in the case of say a hurricane and you get deployed to another area we get paid the entire time we are in that area. So even though you might be technically off duty to rest since you are still on the clock you have a duty to act. If just going home from your normal shift and there is a accident you do not have to stop (no duty to act) but if you stop to even ask if they are ok now patient abandonment comes into play." Now he also advised that if you see a crash on your way home and dont want to help he strongly advised not to even call 911. Just keep going as if you never seen it. As cold hearted as it sounds its to cover your ass because there is a gray area as far as he was concerned as calling 911 could one day (with a good lawyer) be considered patient abandonment as you did start patient care by calling for help or as it could be defined as backup and since you most likely used your cell phone they can trace it back to you.


Wow.
Facepalm

( this is a system failure... Not yours op)

It's nice that people have a NRP, or RN or MD or FF after their name ..... It doesn't mean I am going to blindly follow/believe you without question.
Question and verify was my motto through medic school.
it sounds like you have a lot of self study on your hands as your program/school utterly failed you in this case.

LACoGurneyjockey
07-25-2014, 12:07 PM
Wow.
Facepalm

( this is a system failure... Not yours op)

Yup, my frustration is directed thru you at your instructor, not at you.

rabidrider
07-25-2014, 12:19 PM
Must resist the urge to smack a :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: ... meh, why not.
Why in the world would you not call 911? Are you that afraid of a lawsuit, that you would rather drive past a wreck and hope some other helpless bystander manages to give a decent description? Google the bystander effect.
Getting sued for calling 911? That is complete and utter bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. Cover your ass? Really? Are you even remotely aware of the laws in your state, or do you just trust this "rescue LT" blindly. Maybe try and find an EMT instructor with an actual interest in helping people even when they're not on fire. Read back over this thread, just for a minute, and edumacate yurself. You call 911, you do not identify yourself (Im bubba and I have my national registry card, wanna see it Ms dispatcher?), and you give an accurate description of the location.
I have more to say, but I'll leave room for others, err, constructive feedback.
Did you ask your badass Rescue Life-Saver fire truck driving ultimate super hero of an instructor what you should do if you pass a structure fire? Im willing to be there's a slightly different answer...
For a more concise response, see the attached photo.
I said IF you dont want to stop then you should probnably just keep going (yes it sounds cold) that ONE DAY (does not mean today but lawsuits and laws are not getting better for us) you could get in trouble for it That does not mean today but one day if he is right someone could get burned. See some states have a duty to act while off duty I think he was referring to the fact it will probably come into law here ONEDAY. Now I could see doing something if you are in a rural area. Alachua County is in Gainesville (ever heard of UF, the gators) it is very heavily populated area so just because you didnt pick up the phone and call are you truly that thick to think that no one else will really? I know its a messed up world hence why we have to cover our asses all the time. Now say you want to play hero and stop to help. You have no gear, probably no gloves in the car (I at least carry gloves for other reasons) nothing. What is it you actually plan on doing but standing there. all you can do is help the walking wounded and possibly pull people from a burning car (rapid extraction). So yeah you could play hero in certain cases but a typical roll over 1 driver badly hurt going into shock. Honestly what can you do with out jeopardizing your own health?

Also you might want to lower your tone a little I dont claim to be an expert (I think student is on my profile) I was just responding to a thread off what I heard in matter of law in Florida. Not there is no duty to act unless you are on the job. I did not 1 time state anything that I would personally do given I was in that situation as I dont know.

Medic Tim
07-25-2014, 12:32 PM
Ok smart ass before responding you might want to learn reading comprehension. I said IF you dont want to stop then you should probnably just keep going (yes it sounds cold) that ONE DAY (does not mean today but lawsuits and laws are not getting better for us) you could get in trouble for it That does not mean today but one day if he is right someone could get burned. See some states have a duty to act while off duty I think he was referring to the fact it will probably come into law here ONEDAY. Now I could see doing something if you are in a rural area. Alachua County is in Gainesville (ever heard of UF, the gators) it is very heavily populated area so just because you didnt pick up the phone and call are you truly that thick to think that no one else will really? I know its a messed up world hence why we have to cover our asses all the time. Now say you want to play hero and stop to help. You have no gear, probably no gloves in the car (I at least carry gloves for other reasons) nothing. What is it you actually plan on doing but standing there. all you can do is help the walking wounded and possibly pull people from a burning car (rapid extraction). So yeah you could play hero in certain cases but a typical roll over 1 driver badly hurt going into shock. Honestly what can you do with out jeopardizing your own health?

Also you might want to lower your tone a little I dont claim to be an expert (I think student is on my profile) I was just responding to a thread off what I heard in matter of law in Florida. Not there is no duty to act unless you are on the job. I did not 1 time state anything that I would personally do given I was in that situation as I dont know.


http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/26/upy5yju4.jpg

No one here is advocating Ricky rescue behaviour.
I rarely stop at wrecks. Not much you can do without a kit treatment wise but you can get accurate information to dispatch and calm and reassure a pt all without saying you are an Emt or medic. Where I am once you identify yourself or you are recognized as a medic you have a duty to act unless there are other responders on scene.

If you want to drive by an accident fine. If you want to drive by an accident and not call 911 because you think you will be sued... Well I honestly don't know what to say besides your EMS program utterly failed you. Don't take it personal.... Most others are like yours( mine included). Which I why I made the comment above about question and verify.

rabidrider
07-25-2014, 12:49 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/07/26/upy5yju4.jpg

No one here is advocating Ricky rescue behaviour.
I rarely stop at wrecks. Not much you can do without a kit treatment wise but you can get accurate information to dispatch and calm and reassure a pt all without saying you are an Emt or medic. Where I am once you identify yourself or you are recognized as a medic you have a duty to act unless there are other responders on scene.

If you want to drive by an accident fine. If you want to drive by an accident and not call 911 because you think you will be sued... Well I honestly don't know what to say besides your EMS program utterly failed you. Don't take it personal.... Most others are like yours( mine included). Which I why I made the comment above about question and verify.

and I agree with you here I did not say not to call 911. He didnt even say not to. He just advised that one day it will eventually come to the point where we will be required to stop. If that will be true or not hell I dont know. I personally dont see how as I dont always even have a phone on me to call if I wanted to. All I wanted to do was point out what current laws are in Florida. I probably should not have entered they did teach us to leaving opinions out of reports as it can lead to bad juju. Plus he is retireing because he is burned out but a damn good medic.

LACoGurneyjockey
07-25-2014, 01:23 PM
...Now he also advised that if you see a crash on your way home and dont want to help he strongly advised not to even call 911. Just keep going as if you never seen it...

and I agree with you here I did not say not to call 911. He didnt even say not to.

Ok, you got me, you never did say not to call 911.

But you also kinda missed:
Yup, my frustration is directed thru you at your instructor, not at you.

Now, on a different note...
Ok smart ass before responding you might want to learn reading comprehension.
Also you might want to lower your tone a little

Back on topic:
Alachua County is in Gainesville (ever heard of UF, the gators) it is very heavily populated area so just because you didnt pick up the phone and call are you truly that thick to think that no one else will really?
The gators? Like alligators? They can use phones in Florida? Damn, y'all really do have it different down there.
...you would rather drive past a wreck and hope some other helpless bystander manages to give a decent description? Google the bystander effect.

Now say you want to play hero and stop to help.
Actually, I never said that, you can quote me on it, if I haven't already.

And finally, one for the road:
Plus he is retireing because he is burned out but a damn good medic.

He's a burned out damn good medic who tells his students not to call 911 when they pass a wreck...
About that reading comprehension, what's the present progressive of "retire"?

Medic Tim, maybe my new favorite image...

rabidrider
07-25-2014, 02:01 PM
haha look I was typing as you posted that so sorry. I thought you directed it at me.

as far as reading comprehension goes this was about you not me. I already know I am an idiot (kind of why I am a student) :rofl:

Sorry for the head bump but guess what we have here is failure to communicate.

LACoGurneyjockey
07-25-2014, 02:04 PM
haha look I was typing as you posted that so sorry. I thought you directed it at me.

as far as reading comprehension goes this was about you not me. I already know I am an idiot (kind of why I am a student) :rofl:

Sorry for the head bump but guess what we have here is failure to communicate.

It's all good bruh, but I gotta have some fun when I can.

DesertEMT66
07-25-2014, 02:23 PM
As far as being deployed to help in a hurricane, yes you are on duty but you most of the time have an assignment that you have to get to. I was part of a team that flew from CA to Ohio and then drove code 3 (lights and sirens) to New Jersey (we didn't get a choice on how to respond). We passed by a couple of semi tucks that had flipped over because of winds. Our policy was to call our communication center, call 911, and keep on driving.

rabidrider
07-25-2014, 02:38 PM
Yeah I have never been on a deployment and hoping I wont but location does not tip the odds in my favor. Its all good though I love to help others. I just know from going through hurricane Andrew in homestead was rough. I was young then but could not imagine what they went through. 911 and many more events I am sure will stay with you forever. I have only had 2 people not make it on me and I remember both but the memories are slowly fading as I know I did (aswell as the whole crew that day) did everything I could do and left no thoughts of well what if, but those days like that I dont think would ever leave. God bless you man.

LACoGurneyjockey its all good to poke fun at dumb stuff I post (it wont be the last) just expect something in response because it will be coming.