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View Full Version : scene safety-- what not to do


uhbt420
12-13-2010, 09:11 PM
a very sad and preventable death

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvDEVhR7u4U

Linuss
12-13-2010, 09:15 PM
After doing some searching, there was no Illinois state officer that died that year, let alone in that type of scenario. From what I've seen, it's just training.... a very well staged and shot training video, but still staged.


Patch image: Illinois State Police, IL Trooper Erin Sweeney Hehl
Illinois State Police, IL
EOW: Thursday, October 30, 1997

Cause of Death: Aircraft accident
Patch image: Illinois State Police, IL Master Sergeant Stanley W. Talbot
Illinois State Police, IL
EOW: Saturday, June 23, 2001

Cause of Death: Vehicular assault
Patch image: Illinois State Police, IL Sergeant Rodney Todd Miller
Illinois State Police, IL
EOW: Friday, May 12, 2006
Cause of Death: Automobile accident

Patch image: Illinois State Police, IL Trooper Brian Carl McMillen
Illinois State Police, IL
EOW: Sunday, October 28, 2007
Cause of Death: Vehicular assault

JPINFV
12-13-2010, 09:22 PM
I've actually been doing some Googling on the video and based on some of the threads I saw and since there is no actual news articles connected with this, it does appear that this was a very well staged training video. Additionally, if the officer did die with the accident occuring in 2000, was he the officer that died in 2001, 2003, 2006, or 2007?
http://www.isp.state.il.us/aboutisp/memorial.cfm

uhbt420
12-13-2010, 10:37 PM
i just checked over at another ems forum where this was posted, and the op (and subsequent comments) are all under the impression that it is real.

not sayin your wrong linuss, either way this is an important reminder for scene safety.

JPINFV
12-13-2010, 10:40 PM
i just checked over at another ems forum where this was posted, and the op (and subsequent comments) are all under the impression that it is real.

not sayin your wrong linuss, either way this is an important reminder for scene safety.

It can be a training video and an important reminder, but what sources are everyone else using to justify their stance? What source do people have that says the officer died? Why are there no news stories about this, the internet wasn't an infant in 2000, so there should still be some things coming up on it.

firetender
12-13-2010, 11:48 PM
If you come across an MVA involving a truck with gas clearly escaping from a huge canister nearby, don't put yourself in danger until you read the label!

uhbt420
12-14-2010, 11:03 AM
well real or otherwise it's an important reminder to emergency personnel.

here are the state trooper's errors:

- not backing away to a safe distance once the vapor became visible

- assuming it was smoke when signs pointed to something much more sinister: white vapor, large tank leaking, and unconscious person laying in the middle of the road

- running to help when he should have waited for fire to clear the scene

Fire department didn't do a very good job either:

- parked way too close to the vapor, even when the body of the state trooper they just talked to was right there

- didn't put protective gear on in the rig. what if it was a corrosive substance?

at least they came out with their BA's on, but if they had parked any closer the whole thing would go from tragedy to clusterfudge.

the ambulance crew did the sensible thing by staying away from the contaminated scene. but dont tell me that half the emts in this country would be scrambling to help just like the trooper did.

uhbt420
12-14-2010, 11:24 AM
also, the fire guys were fiddling with a backboard when they should have been rapidly removing the trooper and the patient away from the source of the hazmat.

Phlipper
12-14-2010, 06:15 PM
It's a good training video, as mentioned. Ammonia doesn't incapacitate that quickly. It certainly can incapacitate, as it reacts with the water in the tissues of the trachea, bronchi, alveoli, and so on, and as the tissue breaks down more and more water is released to increase the reaction. But the severe burning in the eyes, mouth, throat, etc has most people scattering quickly before severe damage sets in. He wouldn't have just walked into a cloud and keeled over.

Good point made in the video, though. Always remember ... "Scene safe? BSI." :P

lightsandsirens5
12-14-2010, 06:24 PM
Hey, real or not, it is a good training video. And it could very easily happen.

Cohn
12-15-2010, 08:50 AM
lol actually I might be the reason why this making the rounds on here...

I posted this vid on my face book after watching it in my hazmat class.

Cohn
12-15-2010, 08:53 AM
It's a good training video, as mentioned. Ammonia doesn't incapacitate that quickly. It certainly can incapacitate, as it reacts with the water in the tissues of the trachea, bronchi, alveoli, and so on, and as the tissue breaks down more and more water is released to increase the reaction. But the severe burning in the eyes, mouth, throat, etc has most people scattering quickly before severe damage sets in. He wouldn't have just walked into a cloud and keeled over.

Good point made in the video, though. Always remember ... "Scene safe? BSI." :P

I can argue with you all day about it not incapacitating that quickly.

But I will restrain myself.

Cohn
12-15-2010, 09:00 AM
well real or otherwise it's an important reminder to emergency personnel.

here are the state trooper's errors:

- not backing away to a safe distance once the vapor became visible

- assuming it was smoke when signs pointed to something much more sinister: white vapor, large tank leaking, and unconscious person laying in the middle of the road

- running to help when he should have waited for fire to clear the scene

Fire department didn't do a very good job either:

- parked way too close to the vapor, even when the body of the state trooper they just talked to was right there

- didn't put protective gear on in the rig. what if it was a corrosive substance?

at least they came out with their BA's on, but if they had parked any closer the whole thing would go from tragedy to clusterfudge.

the ambulance crew did the sensible thing by staying away from the contaminated scene. but dont tell me that half the emts in this country would be scrambling to help just like the trooper did.

You got to also criticize the EMS that showed up... Of course pulling up right next to the fire truck.

EMT-IT753
12-15-2010, 05:26 PM
If you seriously think ammonia doesn't capacitate that quickly, you may not have inhaled any. I have done it once while working on a farm. Once breath knocked the tar out of me and had me scrambling for fresh air. The trooper in this video, whether it was real or staged, was breathing the ammonia for plenty of time to constrict the lungs and make him unresponsive.

lightsandsirens5
12-15-2010, 06:16 PM
If you seriously think ammonia doesn't capacitate that quickly, you may not have inhaled any. I have done it once while working on a farm. Once breath knocked the tar out of me and had me scrambling for fresh air. The trooper in this video, whether it was real or staged, was breathing the ammonia for plenty of time to constrict the lungs and make him unresponsive.

That would be incapacitate, right?

I agree with you. I took a nice big breath of that stuff once out of an anhydrous tank. My gosh. I thought I was going to die. All you can think about is getting another breath. So of course the first thing I did was breathe out and then gasp again. By that time I was already on my way out of the worst of it, so I got more O2. But I can easily how that knocked the trooper down so fast. Four, five maybe six breaths you would be hurting so bad already that he might have already been disoriented.Add to that he is fixated on the guy in the road, might not have realized he was starting to suffocate after the first breath.

I'm not saying this video is either real or staged. I'm just trying to show how fast anhydrous ammonia can incapacitate.

hurt88
12-16-2010, 07:58 AM
I don't know a whole lot about Anhydrous Ammonia but our instructor told us that if you walk into a cloud of that like the trooper did then it would instantly blind you and the trooper didn't seem to be effected at all by his eyes just the coughing.

Either way if its just a staged training video or not it was very well done because I thought it was real just watching it at first before reading all of the comments and it really makes you sit back and think on how you really have watch out for yourself when on scene. Good video

uhbt420
12-16-2010, 12:41 PM
Well here's the anhydrous ammonia MSDS
http://www.tannerind.com/anhydrous-msds.html

also, gotta be honest, im not so sure this is just a training exercise. especially with the part where the mic cuts in and out because the trooper is "trying to breathe." just looks way too real.

Phlipper
12-16-2010, 05:18 PM
Talked to a former warehouse worker this morning who I knew had been exposed to an ammonia cloud. His experience bears out exactly what I'd read or been told previously. Instant intense burning and coughing had everyone running away asap, and (his words) " ... only Chuck Norris or a retard would stand in the cloud long enough to choke out if there was a way out." :P And troopers aren't generally known to be either, entirely.

medic417
12-16-2010, 05:24 PM
Talked to a former warehouse worker this morning who I knew had been exposed to an ammonia cloud. His experience bears out exactly what I'd read or been told previously. Instant intense burning and coughing had everyone running away asap, and (his words) " ... only Chuck Norris or a retard would stand in the cloud long enough to choke out if there was a way out." :P And troopers aren't generally known to be either, entirely.

Actually the concentration would play a large part in how it affected you. Most houses used to have ammonia in the refrigerator and also in the refrigerated air conditioner. It was replaced because of the danger with some good ole ozone depleting stuff instead so rather than kill a few at a time just wipe out the whole planet over time.

Cohn
12-17-2010, 08:45 AM
Talked to a former warehouse worker this morning who I knew had been exposed to an ammonia cloud. His experience bears out exactly what I'd read or been told previously. Instant intense burning and coughing had everyone running away asap, and (his words) " ... only Chuck Norris or a retard would stand in the cloud long enough to choke out if there was a way out." :P And troopers aren't generally known to be either, entirely.

There's a name we call law enforcement officers in HazMat....



Blue Canaries

Phlipper
12-17-2010, 04:17 PM
there's a name we call law enforcement officers in hazmat....



Blue canaries

lmao! :P

LividityX
12-18-2010, 12:11 AM
Typical cops.

I like how the firefighters arrive and are like, seriously? hahaha.

reaper
12-18-2010, 12:54 AM
Talked to a former warehouse worker this morning who I knew had been exposed to an ammonia cloud. His experience bears out exactly what I'd read or been told previously. Instant intense burning and coughing had everyone running away asap, and (his words) " ... only Chuck Norris or a retard would stand in the cloud long enough to choke out if there was a way out." :P And troopers aren't generally known to be either, entirely.

Had one here last year. a plant had an ammonia leak. The cloud formed and spread across a local road. A young lady driving to work, just drove through the cloud that was only 70 yards long. She did not make it out the other side. Hazmat was on scene, but had not blocked roadway, before wind shifted. This nice young lady was dead, when they reached her. That was within 2 minutes of her entering the cloud.

So, I am sure she would like to know that is does not kill that quick!;)

Ammonia is very harmful to the lungs and in strong concentration will kill very quickly!

matthewpetro
01-10-2011, 10:54 PM
Awesome reminder "Scene Safety"....