Feedback: Open Letter To MMiz

[Summit]

Well, I had intended to contribute this in another thread, but it was locked and I wanted to make a more poignant point in addition to my last post.

We existed before 08-20-2008.

Alrighty then, consider I'm the 3rd oldest non-Mod who still posts here (behind ResTech and Luno).

Mike,

My observations over the last 5 years have led me to conclude that you have an idea of how things ought to work on your forum, how you want them to work. I've also learned that my lengthy stay doesn't mean anything to you, just as people's contributions here gives their opinions on the community no credence in your mind. You pay little attention to others with differing opinions regardless of their experience or contribution to your venture. If the members, the people who CREATE YOUR CONTENT which ATTRACTS MORE MEMBERS and SUSTAINS THE CRITICAL MASS OF YOUR COMMUNITY run afoul of your idyllic fantasy in the slightest way, well, you figure a new one will replace them soon enough and that's best for everyone. Contributors are ultimately disposable resources for you. You fail to realize that contributors drive member retention and new members joining. I've observed that you are extremely hard headed and your attitude is very much "my way or the highway." You do not tolerate dissent well. You close threads that object.

You need to remember that you aren't the first people to ever start and run a forum and my observations are based on my experience as a moderator and participant in many more forums for much longer than you all. I've watched forums thrive and fail depending on the moderation decisions and the community they affect.

Mike, this is your house. It's your right to run it how you want. However, that doesn't make it right. It won't make your community all that it can be, and your ideal community will never be obtained by your present methods.

[mycrofft]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-_-

[lightsandsirens5]

I think that Miz is just trying to create a site where people can have a friendly discussion w/o having evrything degenerate into an all out war. Sometimes to prevent anarchy things cannot be exactly as some want them. To get a workable solution sometimes you have to make sacrifices and that may just be one of them.

Now I shut up and get off this thread since the mods are probably keeping a list of all who view it and will in a massive purge eliminate us all! lol (Just kidding, just kidding, JUST KIDDING!!!) (Hope they heard that)

:P

[Bosco578]

Well said Summit! I'm sure most have already noticed the "big players" are done here........such a shame. :sad:

[reaper]

Summit has said it as nicely as possible. I have watched this forum go down hill fast in the last few months. There are no educating discussions anymore. This has caused those that did have teaching posts, to up and stop posting. The forum has turned into a crappy blog now.

Yes, this is your forum to run as you see fit. I would have expected more of wanting to have a lively educating forum and not taking my toy and going home!

I hope that this place does get back to the way it was. Whether there were fights, disagreements, or hurt feelings, there was always education. This feel good, everyone wins attitude will do the noobs more harm then good.

Hope this place changes, but it may be to late!

[EMS49393]

I also agree with what's been said here by Summit. I came here looking for another place to grow, learn, and talk with people in my profession. The number of posts about pants, stethoscopes, whacker bags, etc. far outweigh any educational posts such as case studies, unusual ECG's, and the like. I don't feel that I should have to wade through numerous duplicate posts that coddle people for not utilizing the search function in order to get to one discussion that is actually educational only to have that discussion locked or deleted. No offense, but I haven't seen one moderator that is even a paramedic, so I completely understand why discussions about educational standards and such would scare you and prompt you to want to abolish the thread.

Run the forum as you see fit, as it is your forum. I'm sure my post will be deleted, if not the entire thread.

You pretty much ran off all the posters that I care to get into discussions with, which doesn't hurt me very much considering I can find them on the City, creating posts and having intelligent discussions with other members. Those you didn't run off you banned, but again, I can find them on the City, so I'm not heartbroken.

Someone asked for an alternative EMS forum, so before this post disappears and I get banned, I hope you see it. I hope to see you there.

Don't ban me, just delete me. I'm too professional to want to be associated with this mockery of EMS. It's no wonder we can't get past being ambulance drivers.

[Lifeguards For Life]

As Chimpie posted a PM, I think I can infer I can do so as well. Here is a copy of a most recent letter recently sent to MMIZ, by myself, which he has not acknowledged. Anyone who reads the inflamatory posts thread can see where he invited this via PM or Email.

"Oh, sorry.
I know the thread got locked, but is that issue still up for civilized debate? I acknowledge some of my posts in it were challenging, and i apologize. I do recognize you and your teams wishes to create a safe, effective online community that is enjoyable for all, though i ask of you if where that line lays can be re evaluated. I fully understand why and how some posts are inappropriate, but on the other hand, as a frequent visitor of your site, i can also see where some debates, as i and many others feel get closed unnecessarily. For instance, do you believe that closing that inflammatory posts thread was warranted, other than me challenging you too?(i was surprised you closed it, i think that was a strategic move on your part). I do enjoy your site ,and wish to continue a membership here. And while i am not advocating this site goes free for all, i recognize the need for balance, i ask of you, maybe we as a community should recalibrate the scale?"

And if the as of late typical "what makes you think this is a democracy and your ideas and opinion are valid?", I ask of the members, why should it be anything less? Shouldn't the management exist to serve the members, if not for what purpose? I do believe the moderators are trying to serve the members i just think that they are doing it wrong. It seems to me the management at times is often irradicate and inconsistent.

[dewd09]

Without healthy debate and disagreement, Emergency Medical Services would have died off long ago. Just remember, you have no rights on the internet. This is the administrators property, to run and maintain as he or she sees fit. The Freedom of Speech, doesn't apply to private internet web locations. It's okay to disagree, even in person; but if a public gathering turned to cursing, accusations, name slinging, etc.. It would likely be broken up by LEO's. Think of this, like a public gathering. Be a pleasant, contributing member of your community; or stay on the side and watch. This was the view and opinion that I formed, after reading the rules. Seems pretty square.

[EMTinNEPA]

Gentlemen and ladies, it was an honor playing with you.

*picks up a violin and plays "Nearer My God to Thee"*

[Kaisu]

I got a warning for castigating someone on a very common, misspelled word in the title of their post. The person challenging me on it - in the original thread - was way more out of line than I was. I exercised what I thought was great self restraint in not ripping the thought policeman a new one, but I got a warning never the less.

I have not posted on this site in months. The longer I run in the field and the more calls I get under my belt, the less patience I have for the whacker light, stethoscope, how fast can I be a paramedic posts.

I would be happy to respond to some of them, but they get defensive and then I call em on it... and you know how that goes.

I have questions. I had a patient diagnosed with baclofen withdrawal that I did an emergent transport on whose symptoms were not consistent with the norm. Maybe it was AD. It never occurred to me to ask here, because most of the people that could have given me GOOD answers are gone.

[rescue99]

Without healthy debate and disagreement, Emergency Medical Services would have died off long ago. Just remember, you have no rights on the internet. This is the administrators property, to run and maintain as he or she sees fit. The Freedom of Speech, doesn't apply to private internet web locations. It's okay to disagree, even in person; but if a public gathering turned to cursing, accusations, name slinging, etc.. It would likely be broken up by LEO's. Think of this, like a public gathering. Be a pleasant, contributing member of your community; or stay on the side and watch. This was the view and opinion that I formed, after reading the rules. Seems pretty square.

It really is as simple as being responsible enough to show the same sort of verbal respect in which one expects. Not a soul has said, don't argue. No one has said, don't banter and never challenge. No one has forbidden anything at all that is educational. Not that I've seen so far anyway.

If people can't write a post or response without being grossly inappropriate in their delivery then it's all on them if they leave. We want recognition as professionals yet, not act respectable? In here would be a good beginning...starting with how we address each other IMO.

[EMTinNEPA]

If you think the educational powerhouses of this forum lack civility, you should see how attendings address interns during rounds.

[guardian528]

Good evening, EMTLife. Allow me first to apologize for this interruption. I do, like many of you, appreciate the comforts of every day routine- the security of the familiar, the tranquility of repetition. I enjoy them as much as any bloke. But in the spirit of commemoration, thereby those important events of the past usually associated with someone's death or the end of some awful bloody struggle, a celebration of a nice holiday, I thought we could mark this October the 1st, a day that is sadly no longer remembered, by taking some time out of our daily lives to sit down and have a little chat. There are of course those who do not want us to speak. I suspect even now, orders are being shouted into telephones, and men with guns will soon be on their way. Why? Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this forum, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, MMiz. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent. Last night I sought to end that silence. Last night I destroyed an ambulance, to remind this forum of what it has forgotten. More than four hundred years ago a great citizen wished to embed the first of October forever in our memory. His hope was to remind the world that fairness, justice, and freedom are more than words, they are perspectives. So if you've seen nothing, if the crimes of these Community Leaders remain unknown to you then I would suggest you allow the first of October to pass unmarked. But if you see what I see, if you feel as I feel, and if you would seek as I seek, then I ask you to stand beside me one year from tonight, outside the gates of EMTLife, and together we shall give them a first of October that shall never, ever be forgot.


from V for Vendetta, with some words changed of course ^_^

this little "argument" is starting to sound more and more like the plot of V for Vendetta, so I thought i'd point it out haha

p.s. no disrespect meant, just a joke. . .

[Summit]

Not a soul has said, don't argue. No one has said, don't banter and never challenge. No one has forbidden anything at all that is educational.

The problem is people will get their feelings hurt in strong discussions because, *gasp* people are disagreeing with them! It's a short jump from this to "they weren't respecting me! they were mean!" when really people are simply upset because the other side dares to disagree or questions their beliefs. People get particularly upset when their beliefs are questioned by strong and well supported arguments that are hard to counter. This commonly results in emotional reactions and the less mature will view it as a personal attack.

Welcome to professional debate where counterpoints don't have to, and in fact, are not supposed to be sugar coated.

But what is the policy here? If you think there is a remote possibility that your post might upset someone in some way, play it safe and refrain from posting. Don't risk it. That reflects a policy that will stifle educational debate, policy discussion, and controversy and leave us only with threads where folks pat each other on the back.

EMS IS NOT A PROFESSION FOR THE THIN SKINNED.

If you think the educational powerhouses of this forum lack civility, you should see how attendings address interns during rounds.

[enjoynz]

BTW Summit...Mmiz name is not Mike;)

Cheers Enjoynz

[Summit]

BTW Summit...Mmiz name is not Mike;)

Hahahah... in my mind he has always been a Mike. :P

[Meursault]

/me pops popcorn and settles in.

This seems familiar. inb4 wave of baww-/rage-/boredom quits, mods reassert community principles, discussion drops off temporarily but rebounds almost to pre-drama levels, remaining regulars avoid discussing issues with forum, and the site slowly stagnates.

Or the b&hammer is wielded with extreme prejudice and the parties that initiated this disappear, leaving more of a cauterized wound than a gaping, still-bleeding hole and temporarily averting the first scenario.

[rescue99]

The problem is people will get their feelings hurt in strong discussions because, *gasp* people are disagreeing with them! It's a short jump from this to "they weren't respecting me! they were mean!" when really people are simply upset because the other side dares to disagree or questions their beliefs. People get particularly upset when their beliefs are questioned by strong and well supported arguments that are hard to counter. This commonly results in emotional reactions and the less mature will view it as a personal attack.

Welcome to professional debate where counterpoints don't have to, and in fact, are not supposed to be sugar coated.

But what is the policy here? If you think there is a remote possibility that your post might upset someone in some way, That reflects a policy that will stifle educational debate, policy discussion, and controversy and leave us only with threads where folks pat each other on the back.

EMS IS NOT A PROFESSION FOR THE THIN SKINNED.


Actually, I find those who respond with belligerence to be showing off their own insecurities. Momma never told em others had opinions that might differ from their's perhaps..who knows! When paper thin skin gets rubbed, chaffing seems to occur on a regular basis. Yelping then ensues which in turn takes the place of any meaningful conversation. Just an opinion..not gospel. :)

[MMiz]

I've also learned that my lengthy stay doesn't mean anything to you, just as people's contributions here gives their opinions on the community no credence in your mind.

You're correct, the day in which you joined EMTLife means very little to me. I've learned as both a professional and human that titles and labels mean very little. It's the interactions I've had over the time you've been here that means something to me. That fact that over the past five years you've been able to articulate yourself in a professional manner that means something to me.


You pay little attention to others with differing opinions regardless of their experience or contribution to your venture.
I disagree, but recognize your position.


If the members, the people who CREATE YOUR CONTENT which ATTRACTS MORE MEMBERS and SUSTAINS THE CRITICAL MASS OF YOUR COMMUNITY run afoul of your idyllic fantasy in the slightest way, well, you figure a new one will replace them soon enough and that's best for everyone.

I value our members and their contributions to the community. Just because a member feels that he or she is a vital part of the community doesn't make it so. I feel that the ability to post a message, or a few hundred messages, doesn't necessarily make a member a valuable part of our community. If a member is unable to constructively contribute to the community in a positive manner, then it's best that he or she refrain from posting.

Contributors are ultimately disposable resources for you. You fail to realize that contributors drive member retention and new members joining.

I see our members as individual members of the EMTLife community. It appears as though you see yourself and every member as the most valuable person in the community, and that's not the case.

I've observed that you are extremely hard headed and your attitude is very much "my way or the highway." You do not tolerate dissent well. You close threads that object.

I, along with others, created EMTLife. If you're not happy here, I sincerely hope that you find another community that better meets your needs. I don't have the time, nor the energy, to battle it out with you.

You need to remember that you aren't the first people to ever start and run a forum and my observations are based on my experience as a moderator and participant in many more forums for much longer than you all. I've watched forums thrive and fail depending on the moderation decisions and the community they affect.

I will never underestimate or undervalue the significance of effective leadership, but this isn't about flourishing or failing. The forum exists because of our members, and it will continue to exist because of our members.

Mike, this is your house. It's your right to run it how you want. However, that doesn't make it right. It won't make your community all that it can be, and your ideal community will never be obtained by your present methods.

I don't ask that you agree with my actions, but I'd hope that you'd find me fair. If not, then that's a personal issue that we need to discuss via private message.

At EMTLife you have the right to contribute to a community in a positive manner. You have the right to post in a thread without fear of being belittled because you mentioned one of the thousand taboo topics or phrases.

I will continue to commit myself to supporting the values I believe in and the guiding principles that act as the foundation of EMTLife. There are literally thousands of communities on the internet, and I hope that if you decide to no longer frequent EMTLife that you remain active elsewhere.

[trackmedic]

See you in the city.

[BLSBoy]

See you in the city.

x2.

You will rarely see me here anymore.
I have made contacts in several states that I value.
I miss some of our most valued posters that got their pee pees smacked for chastising a pup.

It just aint what it used to be....

[Ridryder911]

I have held off posting on this to see the direction it was going. It is a shame to see this occur.

When I first entered the site, to be blunt it was full of the bull crap topics most whackers and vollies enjoy the most ... boots and sirens. I remember being chastised by some because I posted medical topics and interest of those that have concern of professional EMS providers.

Fortunately, the mod's have recognized that the site would grow and it was in the best interest for the forum to have some latitude and movement. Yes, it is a private site but it is open for the public and to be truthful without posters it is nothing. There are other EMS forums that have went down this path and they are closed or dead. You open the forum for public usage, expect the results of debates and differences of opinions otherwise restrict the usage and design a blog.

If we are going to be truthful and honest as the goals and mission is to be portrayed here, then remove the title of ..."#1 Online EMS Forum for EMS Related Discussion".... as that is false advertising and could be legally misinterpreted by the numbers of posts r/t EMS topics and posts on other EMS forums... in other words false advertising. Sorry, pants and boots and what is on t.v. to even if you passed your test or not; is NOT really EMS related.

I do believe part of the problem is many that over see are not active in the business or profession that they have a forum for. Why one would even do so, puzzles me. I would have no desire to have a cake decorating forum although I have baked and eaten cakes but if chef's decided to debate and posts topics, then what rationalization could I really have of moderating or deciding what is important or of value? Should there be some over site?...you bet, control .. to a point but that is where one has to determine if they are truly opening it up for public or again just an opinionated arena.

I do hope for the best, as I have always participated in more than one site but had chose this as it was becoming one of the more informatitive and progressive sites from good posters but if you remove the source..... What is left?

R/r 911

[Summit]

I do believe part of the problem is many that over-see are not active in the business or profession that they have a forum for. Why one would even do so, puzzles me. I would have no desire to have a cake decorating forum although I have baked and eaten cakes

So very true and very baffling...

Maybe I'll start and moderate a My-Little-Pony forum and ban little girls who actually still play with their My-Little-Pony dolls. :P

[Chimpie]

I do believe part of the problem is many that over see are not active in the business or profession that they have a forum for. Why one would even do so, puzzles me. I would have no desire to have a cake decorating forum although I have baked and eaten cakes but if chef's decided to debate and posts topics, then what rationalization could I really have of moderating or deciding what is important or of value?

Matt is a former EMT, and the forum was created while he was one.

FFEMT8978 is still involved with fire and ems.

I'm a former MFR, still teach, but have moved onto other things.

Just because Matt and I may not make it our full time professions doesn't mean we don't care about the industry. We have just chosen to do something else.

We do believe in interactive, community driven forums. That's why we maintain active here.

To respond to the latter highlighted part.... Of all the moderating we do, less than 5% (a guess) is done regarding the topics themselves. It's the hatred expressed in the posts that cause us to remove them. If the community remains civil we don't have much to moderate.

[Luno]

As one of the oldest non-mods, I guess I should know better than to contribute to this kind of thread, but hey, I'm old and dumb, so here goes...

Mmiz/FFEMT/Chimpie, thank you for your additional work and contribution of resources that provide us a place to exchange ideas, and debate our view points, no matter how odd ball they may seem.

Almost everyone else except Rid/Vent, behave yourselves! This recent enforcement is only because some people are demonstrating a lack of self-control. There is no reason to post multiple times to another stethoscope, lights, volunteer threads, about the original poster's lack of ability to search. If no one responds then they will have to learn to search. There is no point in belittling people. Stop demeaning people, no professional instructor would allow belittling or name calling in their class between students. This forum, as I understand it is a combination of social arena, and learning forum, hence the need to maintain civility. The amount of condescending bs and mockery of another person's viewpoint, serve no point in either education another professional on your view point, or bolstering your public perception as a professional.

Unfortunately, the problem is that when you humiliate or attempt to humiliate someone else, they attach their dislike for humiliation to you, and your message. This causes them to not only dislike you, but also to distrust the information that you're relaying. I highly doubt that most of the people that are the rudest on this site, are actually as rude in person. Having met a few, I would characterize this as simply internet bravado, a false feeling of invincibility of hiding behind a keyboard. When I did meet a few of the rude people from this site, they were nothing like their online personna, which was rather nice, as it would of led to a very short conversation. :D

I guess long story short, it's the golden rule, treat other people the way you wish to be treated. No, the opinion of "this profession requires a thick skin" doesn't hold water for me, I see no reason to treat another professional in an disrespectful way. It is counterproductive for both ourselves as individual practioners, and as EMS as a profession. If your partner on the AMB/ENG whatever you work treated you the way you treat others on this site, no matter how boneheaded of a decision or remark you've made, you would be taken back and likely offended. Life is life, virtual, forum, or otherwise. All that being said, the forum has been around for years, if you can't be civil and treat others the way you wish to be treated, it's been here before you, and will be here after you leave.*

That being said, if you search my postings, you'll see that the mods don't dislike arguements, as I've been in a few, rather they will "correct" people who lack the ability to converse on the forum with common courtesy and respect.

Rid/Vent, I've learned a lot from your postings, and agree with you in principle regarding the need for elevated standards of education. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that there is the motivation from the industry to bear the burden of increase in education. I do agree that it is a fight that needs to start with us, and I appreciate you reminding us of that. That also being said, you can't save everyone. Some people will always do the bare minimum to get by, and nothing will change that. I look forward to continuing to learn from your postings.

*If you conduct yourselves with common courtesy, respect, and self-discipline, the preceeding does not apply to you, thank you for reading...

Just a post from a guy who reads alot, and doesn't usually say much... -luno

[daedalus]

x2.

You will rarely see me here anymore.
I have made contacts in several states that I value.
I miss some of our most valued posters that got their pee pees smacked for chastising a pup.

It just aint what it used to be....

Agree.

see you in the city.

[TransportJockey]

Hmmm... might have to pop into the city more often. I don't wanna miss everyone

[DV_EMT]

well... I for one kinda like the balance of equptment related thread as well as the medically releavnt question threads. I will say that It kinda ridiculous to see a new thread everyday about stethoscopes/ pants/ and bags.

Can we sticky them or something for all the N00bs?

[medichopeful]

well... I for one kinda like the balance of equptment related thread as well as the medically releavnt question threads. I will say that It kinda ridiculous to see a new thread everyday about stethoscopes/ pants/ and bags.

Can we sticky them or something for all the N00bs?

There is a sticky for stethoscopes.

[HotelCo]

There's kind of a catch 22 with starting a new thread v ressurecting an old thread.

If they start a new thread, they get "If you had bothered to seach you would have found a bunch of threads on this topic. If they resurect an old thread they get "Why did you dig up this old thread?" or "I thought we were past this".

[nomofica]

There's kind of a catch 22 with starting a new thread v ressurecting an old thread.

If they start a new thread, they get "If you had bothered to seach you would have found a bunch of threads on this topic. If they resurect an old thread they get "Why did you dig up this old thread?" or "I thought we were past this".

I've noticed this as well.

[MMiz]

If we are going to be truthful and honest as the goals and mission is to be portrayed here, then remove the title of ..."#1 Online EMS Forum for EMS Related Discussion".... as that is false advertising and could be legally misinterpreted by the numbers of posts r/t EMS topics and posts on other EMS forums... in other words false advertising. Sorry, pants and boots and what is on t.v. to even if you passed your test or not; is NOT really EMS related.


I understand what you're saying, but really? I intended to remove the line when we get a new logo, because websites are moving away from including text in logos, but is it really that bothersome? Based on available data, EMTLife has the most traffic of any EMS forum online.

EMTLife was created nearly six years ago as an experiment in both online communities and search engine optimization. When that experiment ended in 2005, I was left with a community that I fond of, and had learned so much from. It was at that point that I committed myself to continuing EMTLife.com as a free resource and community.

I never would have imagined that today we'd have such a large community and diverse community. While others have required registration to view topics, EMTLife has always been free. While others have ads all over, EMTLife hasn't. Whereas others ask for donations for premium member status, EMTLife hasn't. I'm proud of what we, as a community, have accomplished since 2004.

I do believe part of the problem is many that over see are not active in the business or profession that they have a forum for. Why one would even do so, puzzles me. I would have no desire to have a cake decorating forum although I have baked and eaten cakes but if chef's decided to debate and posts topics, then what rationalization could I really have of moderating or deciding what is important or of value? Should there be some over site?...you bet, control .. to a point but that is where one has to determine if they are truly opening it up for public or again just an opinionated arena.

I understand what you're saying, but believe that it doesn't take a medic to be fair and enforce rules or lead a community. Looking at our leadership, with currently active members in bold:

Chimpie - MFR
ffemt8978 - EMT-Intermediate
MMiz - EMT-Basic
Jon - EMT-Paramedic
MedicPrincess - EMT-Paramedic
rescuecpt - EMT-Paramedic
SafetyPro - EMT-Basic, Emergency Planner, Fire Captain

We're not all active in EMS, but I'm not sure that makes us any less valuable to the community. While I don't get on the rig as much as I used to, I still maintain my distance and on-side continuing education credits. As an educator I've worked as an advocate for EMS, started a middle school EMS club, and continue to educate my students about EMS. I work as an on-side emergency responder providing a higher level of care than I did as an EMT-Basic.

It's tough to maintain Community Leaders, which is an entirely volunteer position.

I do hope for the best, as I have always participated in more than one site but had chose this as it was becoming one of the more informatitive and progressive sites from good posters but if you remove the source..... What is left?

This community is nothing without our members, I agree. In a few minutes I will post a letter to the community, while I hope you'll read, but I'm hopeful that together we continue to have a great community.

[JonTullos]

Ok, here's my take... and take it for what it's worth.

I'm new. I don't know everything about EMS nor do I claim to. However, I do have common sense (well, some anyway) and I know disrespect and unprofessionalism when I see it. The way I've been treated at times because I had a differing opinion has been horrible. Now, it's not like I went off into my little corner and cried about it (trust me, I don't lose sleep over such things) but a little respect by those who claim to be "professional" isn't asking too much in my opinion. When ever the word "volunteer" *gasp!* is mentioned around it, it normally irrupts into a battle of "paid vs. volly" and it got tiresome. I even stated that for those reasons I wouldn't participate in such threads anymore and wound up getting called out for it by a member of the forum. There are people who think that Basics have no business on an ambulance and that anyone who asks a question that "they should have learned in class" is an idiot.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions... but be civil about it! There's no reason for all the bashing that goes on. I'm afraid to post in certain threads because I don't want to be treated like a moron just because I stated an opinion that differs from the "important ones" views or that I'll catch Hell because I volunteer my time on the side.

No one is so important that their posts matter more than someone else's and no one's so experienced that their opinion matters more. Post medical studies and such, I like stuff like that! But don't treat people like dirt. That's not asking too much. Debate is fine but when it constantly turns into a name-calling, fists flying and alphabet soup titles being throw around battle then we have a problem.

Sure, there are things that can be changed. I don't like all the boots, pants and scopes threads either... maybe we could have a sticky where people can be informed of where they can find the information/reviews they're looking for?

Bottom line: I know this isn't Wonderland but we can treat each other with respect. If you think that that's asking too much then maybe you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror and question whether or not maybe you're the problem.

[Kaisu]

The solution isn't as simple as address people with civility. The problem is vastly different definitions of what constitutes civility and what is spirited debate. There are thin skinned people here who get extremely defensive when they are questioned or their viewpoint is dressed down as ill-informed or badly presented. For whatever reason, this field attracts the "gee whiz give me a good trauma" types, as well as those that resent book larnin and want to drive fast with lights and sirens.
The volley vs. paid debate is a valid one, as is fire vs ems. When those that are actively fighting for increased educational requirements and professionalism in the field confront those that have no interest in this it can lead to a lot of frustration and anger.
The last resort of those whose arguments are proven ill-informed and counter-productive is to complain that they have the right to their opinion (ignorant though it may be) and that people are mean to them.

[firecoins]

I am not interested in whetjer a topic comes up alot. SO what? You mena stethescopes come up alot? Who cares? You are not required to post!!!!

Want to resurrect an old thread? Great!!! You don't like it, DON'T POST!!!

If you want more educational posts, START A THREAD!!!! Those who like it will read and possibly post.

[DT4EMS]

Wow...........

I have not been on as much because I am pretty covered up........... now that that is out of the way let me say this...........

One of the most important ways I have attempted to conduct myself on a forum is not to say anything on a forum I wouldn't say to a person's face.

It makes me think of something I head someone once say when talking about a man that claimed he couldn't control his temper when it came to his wife............

Put that same man next to a man twice his size and see if he is able to control his temper then.........

There are times when I view a thread and it is difficult to determine the "feel" of the poster. Other times it is very clear it is personal.

I am all for a spirited debate. But remember that debate can end when a person takes it or makes it personal.

[Seaglass]

I'm tired of all the drama. It's just plain annoying when a thread turns into a volunteer vs. career war, or a person you've been talking with is inexplicably banned. It's stupid when a poster thinks they'll win an argument by simply saying they're an Educator and the other person is a fool, and even worse when the other person actually can win by whining about hurt feelings. If your argument can't stand for itself, you're doing it wrong.

I usually leave when a forum's focus turns into the forum itself, rather than real topics. I'll see how things go, but a city account seems to be in my future.

[Linuss]

Too much drama.


Do I not like some things about how this place is run? Sure, but obviously the good outweighs the bad or else I wouldn't have over 2,000 post in less than a year.



Trust me, compared to how some of the forums I frequent are run, this place is fantastic, and I know there are atleast 2 members on this forum that know me in other non-EMS related forums and know what I'm talking about.



I've had my bouts with a couple of CLs, and made clear what I thought was unfair, but I'm still here.

[dewd09]

One thing I gotta say that's nice. When you click on the bookmark, the site always works. Some other sites, with similar titles, are often plagued with errors. "Come back later". No thanks.

[Summit]

Seaglass may have the most balanced post on the thread. The solution isn't as simple as address people with civility. The problem is vastly different definitions of what constitutes civility and what is spirited debate. There are thin skinned people here who get extremely defensive when they are questioned or their viewpoint is dressed down as ill-informed or badly presented. For whatever reason, this field attracts the "gee whiz give me a good trauma" types, as well as those that resent book larnin and want to drive fast with lights and sirens.
The volley vs. paid debate is a valid one, as is fire vs ems. When those that are actively fighting for increased educational requirements and professionalism in the field confront those that have no interest in this it can lead to a lot of frustration and anger.
The last resort of those whose arguments are proven ill-informed and counter-productive is to complain that they have the right to their opinion (ignorant though it may be) and that people are mean to them.

Amen

But this is the new official position of EMTLife:

Those members who feel it is their duty to right the wrongs of the EMS community via EMTLife are not welcome here.

[ffemt8978]

Seaglass may have the most balanced post on the thread.

Amen

But this is the new official position of EMTLife:

Might as well quote the rest of the paragraph so that the appropriate context is achieved
Enforcement of Community Standards:
More recently, I found myself avoiding read threads in my own forum due to the guaranteed EMTLife lynch mob that inevitably took over each discussion. I refuse to let a small group undermine the community through their eternal drive to take over every thread and ridicule and harass our members. It is one thing to contribute constructively to a thread, and something entirely different to bully members with differing views. Those members who feel it is their duty to right the wrongs of the EMS community via EMTLife are not welcome here.

The part in red is the reason for the statement that you selectively quoted.

[VentMedic]

That sums up the attitudes of the moderators and explains the reasons posts containing educational information get deleted.

[ffemt8978]

That sums up the attitudes of the moderators and explains the reasons posts containing educational information get deleted.

How educational is a post really, if nobody is willing to read it?

We try not to remove truly educational posts, but we have to sometimes because people seem to be unable to educate while remaining civil.

[Summit]

How educational is a post really, if nobody is willing to read it?

Nobody = a few vocal folks with thin skin who make a ruckus about not reading it?

[ffemt8978]

Nobody = a few vocal whiners?

I'll reword it then...

How educational is a post really, if people aren't willing to read it?

[triemal04]

That sums up the attitudes of the moderators and explains the reasons posts containing educational information get deleted.
Losing educational threads seems to be the concern here. It is invaluable to have exceptional people take charge in leading meaningful discussions with all the bells and whistles of a class room. It would be useful to remember that a class room includes didactic content, discussions, agreements and sometimes hearty disagreements, theory, news and development. It's okay to sit back and relax and not play that role too but, once one chooses that role in a thread, he/she has an obligation to stay in keeping with the role as a leader. NO school that I know of would ever sit idly by and allow any educator to frequently call students stupid, ignorant, illiterate lemmings in the name of education. Agreeing and disagreeing doesn't include ripping a person to pieces..in fact, it is counter productive to the learning process.

People are getting away from subject of education, mistakenly insisting that we have the right to display screaming, negative behavior to get our points across in every single thread nearly. It isn't like we can pick and choose. Some of these folks chase threads just to fight or show off or whatever the agenda might be. Where's the professionalism in that? I've read a thousand times, loud and clear; "we want to be thought of as a profession." What purpose does interjecting constant negativism serve in this objective??

I have yet to meet anyone who learned a darned thing from a filthy mouthed educator. It's unethical and unnecessary and certainly makes an individual less than credible in my experience. When a lesson is filled with colorful adjectives, a learner must spend much of his/her time trying to sort adjectives from objectives. Meaning often gets lost in translation. Example: the reader is thinking "Am I stupid because the educator says I am or is the idea I have incorrect?" While I am busy subliminally or otherwise, attempting sort that out, the subject has already moved on and now I am lost! The only clear message I got was being called stupid! The entire objective is then lost and the educator has failed to reach his/her intended audience.

Take home message; There is a huge difference between sugar coating and being affective.
This really should be posted across the top of every thread in very large letters. There is a difference between a spirited debate (good thing) and blindly spouting vitriolic rhetoric, conjecture, insults and innacurate info (bad thing). When people are unable to differentiate between the two is when problems arise.

[Bosco578]

Enough already.

[dewd09]

Who really are the us vs them? Poorly Educated vs Properly Educated? It's a personal responsibility to seek out good education. You can't blame the masses if you're not educated enough to participate in a worthy debate.

This is an "in general" statement, not directed at any person, and not in reply to any person. But I keep seeing "vs" a lot. Maybe it's not the group, but the education of the individual.

[rescue99]

Enough already.

Agree...I suggest the thread be locked...all in favor say, OY!!!

[JonTullos]

That sums up the attitudes of the moderators and explains the reasons posts containing educational information get deleted.

There's a difference between an "educational" post and a post that is condescending, hateful and/or downright unprofessional. Yes, I have a pretty thick skin (getting picked on in high school tends to do that to a person) but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit there and tolerate someone spouting some smartass remark to me under the guise of "education." Please. Educate me, please I want that! But don't talk down to me because I happen to volunteer (read: "be a whacker") in addition to being on a paid truck or because I don't have a bowl of alphabet soup at the end of my signature.

[Crepitus]

There's a difference between an "educational" post and a post that is condescending, hateful and/or downright unprofessional. Yes, I have a pretty thick skin ...but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit there and tolerate someone spouting some smartass remark to me under the guise of "education." Please. Educate me, please I want that! But don't talk down to me because I happen to volunteer (read: "be a whacker") in addition to being on a paid truck or because I don't have a bowl of alphabet soup at the end of my signature.

QFT!


and of course IBTL:P

[Summit]

Agree...I suggest the thread be locked...all in favor say, OY!!!

Yea... you don't like it so lock it! Tell me again who is making you read this thread? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[rescue99]

Yea... you don't like it so lock it! Tell me again who is making you read this thread? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Arguing for no reason is a pure waste. It solves none of the worlds problems and offerers nothing educational what so ever. Hostile posts aren't useful. Offers absolutely nothing but an dysfunctional source of entertainment for some people I suppose but that's about it. The thread has run its course. ;)

[firecoins]

No need to lock it. I agree with the arguments "more education" crowd but find many of their post to be unnecessarily condesending. The people I am talking about know who they are. I think the condensending hurts the argument big time. No need for posts to be deleted threads locked or whatever. Let the thread run its course. It will end on its own.

[VFFforpeople]

Arguing for no reason is a pure waste. It solves none of the worlds problems and offerers nothing educational what so ever. Hostile posts aren't useful. Offers absolutely nothing but an dysfunctional source of entertainment for some people I suppose but that's about it. The thread has run its course. ;)

As stated by firecoins the threads always run their course, the people that get tired of whatever leave, and it turns into a happy thread again. Yes this does help people can vent frustration and see that MMIZ is actually responding and reading this. That in it self will have them calm down re think and then focus on what they would like to do. It is all very common sense, and thus why it has not been locked.

[triemal04]

As stated by firecoins the threads always run their course, the people that get tired of whatever leave, and it turns into a happy thread again. Yes this does help people can vent frustration and see that MMIZ is actually responding and reading this. That in it self will have them calm down re think and then focus on what they would like to do. It is all very common sense, and thus why it has not been locked.
See, that's the problem; they don't and it doesn't turn happy again. Just look at all the locked threads...I'd tell you to look at the thread about "what an EMT can do for asthmatics," but all the posts (and there where a large number) where deleted after awhile. Spirited debate is great and shouldn't be stifled, but for many people (who aren't posting much anymore) what they do is different, and detrimental. And none seem to know the difference, as can be seen by a recent post in THIS thread.

[Summit]

Arguing for no reason is a pure waste. It solves none of the worlds problems and offerers nothing educational what so ever. Hostile posts aren't useful. Offers absolutely nothing but an dysfunctional source of entertainment for some people I suppose but that's about it. The thread has run its course. ;)

This feedback about the state of the community. It is in the Feedback section of the website. If it means nothing to you, you are not here by force.

[Jon]

Ok... I haven't responded here yet, but figure that I should at least weigh in, as the only active CL that hasn't.

I've been busy with work and other stuff for the past week... and the drama here has actually been causing me stress in my everyday life. Sounds silly, I know. I've been fielding emails, IM's, texts, and even some phone calls over this.

I have quite a few folks on here that I consider friends. I have friends on both sides of the issue that brought this to a head.

I've been trying to stay out of this debate, as I don't want to hurt my friends on either side. Not sure if its working.

Anyway - at this point, I've been a member for almost 5 years. I've got more posts than ANYONE here (except for MMiz's "new math" post count, :D). I've made 1000 more posts than RidRyder, the don of the forum.

And I've progressed from being a rather fresh-faced EMT and paramedic student (the first time), to being a seasoned EMT and now baby paramedic (after a second time thorough medic school).

And I've pretty much always been around. Sometimes I've drifted away, but I've always come back after a few weeks or a month.

18 months ago, MMiz invited me to take a more active role in the forum and become a moderator. I accepted the challenge, and have been doing my best to be fair and impartial. I don't get paid anything for this job, of course. And it's caused me some stress and tension from time to time. I don't enjoy that, but, as Spock always said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."


I know that MMiz has asked us to attend the "town hall" meeting this Sunday. I'm going to try to be there, and I really hope that everyone else is going to try to attend as well.

I don't know what direction this forum is going to go in - I know it won't be the SAME as it was a few months ago. However, if we are willing to work together, and not be petty and argumentative, I think the forum will end up being BETTER for it, when we look back on this in a few months.

Anyway - I really hope that EVERYONE attends this discussion - if you aren't there, you won't get to voice your opinion.

[Foxbat]

I am one of the few "vocal whiners" who might have contributed to the policy.
A few months ago, after a number of threads got hijacked and turned into another holy wars (all within a few days), I PMed the CLs and asked if it was possible to modify forum rules to avoid this.
I care less about civilized debate and personal attacks than about these hijackings. If every topic turned into discussion about steths or lights it would be as unpleasant, at least for me.

[Summit]

Thread drift is natural especially when it drifts to the root cause of issues.

[JonTullos]

Well, my schedule's somewhat changed so I have to work on Sunday (read: will not have Internet access). Might it be possible to post a transcript of the meeting so that those of us who can't be here can at least see what was discussed? Thanks.

[Chimpie]

Well, my schedule's somewhat changed so I have to work on Sunday (read: will not have Internet access). Might it be possible to post a transcript of the meeting so that those of us who can't be here can at least see what was discussed? Thanks.

It really depends on what format the chat session will be in.

If there is a way, we will definitely try our best to create one.

[Foxbat]

Thread drift is natural especially when it drifts to the root cause of issues.
Perhaps natural but undesirable (to the point some places prefer tree-type forum structure - very inconvenient to use but limits drift). This forum has relatively soft policy on going off-topic; there are places with much stricter rules which do not allow excuses "oh, but X are the root of all evil, we must bash 'em in every thread no matter what's it about!"

[Summit]

do not allow excuses "oh, but X are the root of all evil, we must bash 'em in every thread no matter what's it about!"

That's a personalized emotional interpretation. I think what is going on is more like "this issue is related/caused by the root issue as such." This may inevitably start debate about the root issue. You solution is to ignore it and not mention it?

[guardian528]

after watching this unfold over the last week or so, i have to say i'm baffled. I'm baffled that this is still being argued. Basically, one new rule is in place: treat people with respect. It seems the people that are in uproar about this are the people that know they do not treat people with respect on a daily basis. I don't know if you find some sort of joy in insulting people, or just an old habit, but all that needs to change is for people to be nice, have a little compassion, have a little understanding. No, i'm not saying we can't criticize people, or that we can't share our opinions. But you and I both know that there is a mean way to do it and a nicer way to do it. You know what i'm talking about, just remove that one sarcastic word, that one instigator, whatever it may be, and your reply will be much more pleasant.

also, remember that this isn't a democracy. there are leaders, they make rules. It seems the mods tried to be nice by giving people a chance to give their feedback on it, which is more than can be said for most forums. Most would simply make the rule, enforce the rule, ban the people, without blinking an eye. maybe they made a couple mistakes, possibly misinterpreting the rule or being too harsh on it, i don't know, its too early to tell. maybe an overreaction from both sides sparked this, but in the end, all that matters is that people are a little nicer to each other.

personally, i haven't seen these radical changes people have been talking about. i still log on everyday, read over the posts, and make a post or two. this rule hasn't effected me, and they only thing i've noticed is that some of the not-as-nice people have posted a little less. i haven't seen the dramatic decrease in medical related posts, although i haven't been here that long, maybe there were oodles and oodles before i joined. basically all i'm trying to say is lighten up, everyone. you're acting like the world is going to end because of a rule that says 'play nice'

[Summit]

It seems the people that are in uproar about this are the people that know they do not treat people with respect on a daily basis. I don't know if you find some sort of joy in insulting people, or just an old habit

I find that accusation insulting and disrespectful. I've never been warned or received an infraction for being disrespectful.

The devil is in the details. What constitutes "playing nice."

[JonTullos]

It really depends on what format the chat session will be in.

If there is a way, we will definitely try our best to create one.

Thank you.

[Foxbat]

That's a personalized emotional interpretation. I think what is going on is more like "this issue is related/caused by the root issue as such." This may inevitably start debate about the root issue. You solution is to ignore it and not mention it?
Again, I never said not to discuss it, I say let's discuss it in an appropriate place and not turn topics which discuss specific issue into 987425943256th holy war thread. Holy war threads are dime a dozen, let's not turn other discussions into them.

[EMTinNEPA]

Yes, please post a transcript since certain members of this forum who oppose the new policy have been banned from chat.

[ffemt8978]

Yes, please post a transcript since certain members of this forum who oppose the new policy have been banned from chat.

Like Chimpie said, we'll try to post a transcript.

But to clear something up, people are not banned from chat for opposing the policy...they get banned from chat for not abiding by it, especially in the chat room.

[MMiz]

All members, including those that currently do not have chat access, are welcome to join the meeting.

[eynonqrs]

It has been a while since I have logged in. I have to say that I did not also like the bashing that was going on. I can understand why some of the threads got locked out, because some of them were going to turn real nasty. I do give credit to the admins for doing a good job. There was a forum up my neck of the woods that was taken off due to personal attacks. The one thing that bothered me the most on here was trying to have a civil conversations. We can argue all we want about vol vs paid, fire based vs non fire based till we get blue in the face. We are all here because we do a job and help people, and it doesnt' matter if we are paid or vol, emt or paramedic. Just like any other forum there are people that post useless threads. I am not much active as an emt anymore. I am "semi-retired" so to speak. I work as a communications officer where my paid job is and I am in an admin position where I volunteer with. I still do my con ed's, read up and still ask questions. I will pop in now and again. I don't need the stress either and can understand everyone's fustrations. Take care everyone.